Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

[Idun_Midgardsormr]

If a BST is fighting a single mob, swapping pets will cause the mob to go yellow - claimable by anyone else - until the BST or the new pet start attackinng it again. The current game mechanics seem to be that the 'current' mob is changed by the charm ability, If the charm fails, that would make sense, but if the charm is successful it shouldn't happen. The change of current mob should occur based on the result of the charm, not on the action of initiating the charm, which means that the first mob would not go unclaimed if the charm is successful.

This change would result in the BST fighting a mob, on leaving the current pet, the mob's hate switches to the #2 on the hate list, the BST. The BST now charms another pet. IF the charm is successful, then the BST has just added a new member to their 'party', which is NOT a hate changing move and so should not change the status of the mob. If on the other hand, charm fails, then the new mob goes red and the current mob goes yellow since there are two mobs being fought simultaneously.

I said that the bst has added a new member to the party - this is based upon the already existing rules where if a mob is a higher level than the other party members it will affect the exp for all party members, therefore the pet is a party member. "Invite to join party" should not, under any circumstances, cause a change in the clamed state of any mob currently being fought - if it does, then it should be unilateral across the board: Summon an avatar, call wyvern, invite a party member that DCd, form an alliance, these should all cause loss of claim but don't. Why would adding a BST's pet to the party cause it?

Note that this is a separate issue, and separate question, from "leaving a pet causing loss of claim" - that isue refers to leaving the pet at the end of a fight so the BST can kill the mob with minimal loss of exp. Please don't get these two mixed up - I already did that once! :(

[Visper]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

I agree totally, this especially effects NMs...in other words don't bother trying to solo one because it'll get stolen on a pet swap.

Lets look at this example If you engaged something (like when I first started playing this game) then disengaged and ran away - noone could help you fighting wise because that mob was on you till you where dead or re-engaged and "called for help". It was always red (purple to others) no matter what. Now I say if you initiate any action on the mob (dia, w/e) even after a pet swap you should still be on its "hate" list so it should stay red (aka claimed) I think this would be an easy fix.

[Sabaron]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

I'm not sure they'll "fix" this, but it might be nice. Since you've actively changed your battle target from one mob to another and initiated an "attack" (read Charm JA) on the monster, technically, you've chosen to claim a different mob regardless of the result of the JA effect. In order to "fix" this they would have to change the rules for Charm which might lead to some unusual or unforseen exploits.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

I'm not sure they'll "fix" this, but it might be nice. Since you've actively changed your battle target from one mob to another and initiated an "attack" (read Charm JA) on the monster, technically, you've chosen to claim a different mob regardless of the result of the JA effect. In order to "fix" this they would have to change the rules for Charm which might lead to some unusual or unforseen exploits.

Its explioted now, though. I don't think when they made the last changed to the claim system that you'd see BRD/NINs spamming Mazurka to steal claim on HNMs. Oh, at first it was a tool used for justice againt RMT... and then HNM shells just started using it on each other.

I'd prefer an mob enraged to stay claimed until its dead or you're dead.

[eticket109]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

Claim to Kill regardless of 'hate' would be the best way to go about it. Then again, there are other MMOs where mobs are free to be attacked by anyone and only loot to whoever gets the kill, so I guess it could be worse.

[Idun_Midgardsormr]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

Since you've actively changed your battle target from one mob to another and initiated an "attack" (read Charm JA) on the monster, technically, you've chosen to claim a different mob regardless of the result of the JA effect.

This is the whole point - You haven't changed your battle target UNTIL the result of the charm is decided. If the charm is successful, then all you've done is add a party member, there should be no change of battle target. Don't think "switch targets" here, think /ja Charm <stnpc> - you're still swinging at the original mob, why should it go yellow?

The crux of the matter is that the BST charm ability is not an offensive ability unless the charm fails. Not all job abilities are offensive - Elemental Seal is not an offensive ability, neither is Divine Seal, it's the spell that they're used to enhance that decides whether they are offensive or not. Gauge is another JA that is about as offensive as /poke.

This is a glitch that is already being exploited by other players and it's high time it was fixed. To spend an hour and a half to 2 hours soloing an NM like aquarius down to 2% hp just to have someone else claim it while you change pets is assinine. It doesn't happen to any other job, why should it happen to BST?

Sabaron, do you have BST levelled above 1 on any other characters? Have you even experienced this problem? If you had then you would understand a lot better that it's not a case of "might be nice". it's a case of it shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's a break from the normal game mechanics that causes an exploitable glitch which allows other players an unfair advantage.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

This is the whole point - You haven't changed your battle target UNTIL the result of the charm is decided. If the charm is successful, then all you've done is add a party member, there should be no change of battle target. Don't think "switch targets" here, think /ja Charm <stnpc> - you're still swinging at the original mob, why should it go yellow?

The crux of the matter is that the BST charm ability is not an offensive ability unless the charm fails. Not all job abilities are offensive - Elemental Seal is not an offensive ability, neither is Divine Seal, it's the spell that they're used to enhance that decides whether they are offensive or not. Gauge is another JA that is about as offensive as /poke.

This is a glitch that is already being exploited by other players and it's high time it was fixed. To spend an hour and a half to 2 hours soloing an NM like aquarius down to 2% hp just to have someone else claim it while you change pets is assinine. It doesn't happen to any other job, why should it happen to BST?

Sabaron, do you have BST levelled above 1 on any other characters? Have you even experienced this problem? If you had then you would understand a lot better that it's not a case of "might be nice". it's a case of it shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's a break from the normal game mechanics that causes an exploitable glitch which allows other players an unfair advantage.

While it may be aggrevating that charm does change your target, charm is an offensive ability while gauge is not (you stated it yourself). So your analogy becomes flawed in itself from that.

Myself I have no problems with charm loosing claim on the original mob I am more aggrevated by Leave makes a mob unclaimed due to hate issues (since Leave makes a mob reevaluate hate for a split-second).

And however you bend it Charm is an offensive ability which claims a monster for you, or rather tags it as it is. Making charm non-offensive raises another question instead;

Do we leave a BST without an ability to claim and tag monsters alltogather?

Since charm is also a BSTs greatest ability to actually claim NMs in the first place.

1. Charm is offensive since it is used on an NPC target it is not used on yourself like the Seal abilities.
2. Charm can claim mobs if you camp a notorious monster and the like.
3. Charm does switch your target if you use it while fighting another monster, since it has to tag the monster you charm.

[Sabaron]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

This is the whole point - You haven't changed your battle target UNTIL the result of the charm is decided.

Incorrect. You change your battle target as soon as you initiate the ability. If, for instance, you were to cast Paralyze on a second mob, you have changed your battle target and the original claim will eventually gold out unless someone else in your party has a valid claim on said mob. You can't have two mobs claimed at once. That's the rule.

The crux of the matter is that the BST charm ability is not an offensive ability unless the charm fails.
Not all job abilities are offensive - Elemental Seal is not an offensive ability, neither is Divine Seal, it's the spell that they're used to enhance that decides whether they are offensive or not. Gauge is another JA that is about as offensive as /poke.

Elemental Seal is not a mob-targetted ability. All mob-targetted abilities are offensive. Emotes and /check are members of their own class and cannot be considered when evaluating this particular effect.

This is a glitch that is already being exploited by other players and it's high time it was fixed. To spend an hour and a half to 2 hours soloing an NM like aquarius down to 2% hp just to have someone else claim it while you change pets is assinine. It doesn't happen to any other job, why should it happen to BST?

You sound like an old codger complaining about taxes. I take it your reason for this post was a claim steal.

Sabaron, do you have BST levelled above 1 on any other characters? Have you even experienced this problem? If you had then you would understand a lot better that it's not a case of "might be nice". it's a case of it shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's a break from the normal game mechanics that causes an exploitable glitch which allows other players an unfair advantage.

If you read my signature (which is in fact grossly out of date) you would note that my BST level is in fact 1. That information is plain. Attempting to invalidate my position for having not stepped into the BST's shoes has no merit in this case as I am not speaking from a "practical" standpoint but rather from the position of the rules.

It is not a break from the normal game mechanics. It is in fact the normal game mechanics which you do not like. Programmatically speaking, Charm functions exactly the same as any other mob-targetted Job Ability in that it causes a "claim" [previously referred to as "battle target switch"] just like an ability like Chi Blast or Provoke.

You are not asking that something wrong be fixed, you are asking for an exception to the rules for a particular ability, regardless of whether or not your request bears merit. This is all I was saying. This is not a "bug"--the ability works exactly as it is supposed to under the game rules just like all the other ones of it's class--that being mob-targetted job abilities or, if you prefer, Offensive Job Abilities.

[Idun_Midgardsormr]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

Sabaron: I did read your signature and noted that your BST is level 1, therefore you have no experience of this particular subject whatsoever - I even allowed for the possibility that you may have BST levelled on another character. You are not SE, and are not qualified to speak for them. In this particular topic, you are simply playing the part of a self-appointed devils' advocate. As I explained, very carefully, charm on a mob is not aggressive UNTIL the results of the charm have been decided.

Paralyze IS an offensive spell from the moment it is cast. You are incorrect in saying that all mob targetted abilities are offensive - gauge is mob targetted and is not offensive and draws no aggro unless the mob aggros JAs, a concept only recently introduced in ToAU which will even draw aggro to ES and DS.

If correct use of the English language earns me the qualification of 'old codger' then so be it, and yes, this is all about claim stealing, and has been from the very first line of the very first post if you would care to read it carefully. Not only my claims, but the claims of other BST also, ever since the patch was introduced which prevented holding two mobs this has been a problem for BSTs.

Charm is NOT Chi-blast or provoke, it operates in a totally unique way and is unlike any other ability in that respect. The initial effect of charm is to send information to the server regarding the BST and referencing the mob. That information is then assessed based on both parts involved and a game-decision is made as to whether or not the charm is successful. Up to this point it is no different than the guage ability. Once the outcome is decided, the potential pet is then either switched into pet mode (becomes a party member to all intents and purposes) or becomes aggressive.

Where the whole thing falls out of kilter is that the main target mob goes unclaimed before the outcome is decided, making it available for claim by anyone else standing around, regardless of how much damage the BST has done to it. If the charm succeeds, the BST then has to re-attack the main mob, or set the pet on it, or both in order to re-establish the claim.

This is an exploitable glitch that came about as part of changes made previously and has never been adequately addressed or fixed. It can also be used to MPK the BST since the BST player is still high on the mob's hate list; if the person who takes the claim then uses hide or a similar ability, the mob will then turn on the BST, but is now 'claimed' by someone else and cannot be attacked - now tell me again that that is not a bug.

As far as your signature is concerned, either remove it or update it, but don't use "out of date" as a defense.

Liquidedust: A mob going unclaimed on leave is easily fixed - that scenario normally comes about when leaving the pet at the end of a fight to get max exp - simply leave a second or two earlier and hit it once before letting rip with a ws. Yes, its another one of those "unusual or unforseen exploits" that get brushed aside because nobody else but BST is affected.

I didn't say that charm was an offensive ability, it only becomes offensive if it fails, or if used on an uncharmable mob. In that respect, yes it can be used to claim NMs, the same as any other non-charmable mob. My whole point here though is not related to claiming NMs, but to the fact that any unscrupulous player can MPK a BST or simply steal their exp or drops by exploiting this bug.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

Incorrect. You change your battle target as soon as you initiate the ability. If, for instance, you were to cast Paralyze on a second mob, you have changed your battle target and the original claim will eventually gold out unless someone else in your party has a valid claim on said mob. You can't have two mobs claimed at once. That's the rule.

Incorrect.

If you mischarm, both mobs are red and both are on you like white on rice, there is a period of time before the mob you're fighting will go unclaimed, but for several seconds both are yours.

But when you have a successful claim, the system treats it like you've totally switched target and the mob your fighting goes unclaimed instantly. This should not be because you technically haven't changed targets at all

If I go out and pull as COR, drag a mob and then Light Shot it, its stays claimed for a set amount of time, typically long enough for my PT to get to it (LShot lasts from 40 seconds to a minute and a half depending on mob strength). But when I engage another mob, the mob I slept goes yellow.

As BST, when I charm a mob to fight another, I don't engage the charmed mob first, I just charm it. Therefore, if I'm still engaged with the current target, it should not go unclaimed because a second engagement did not take place, the first one is ongoing.

But it does go unclaimed. Now if I did engage the charmed mob, that would make total sense, which is why I don't engage with my COR in merit PTs, I just buff and pull so we don't lose claim on my pulls.

If you read my signature (which is in fact grossly out of date) you would note that my BST level is in fact 1. That information is plain. Attempting to invalidate my position for having not stepped into the BST's shoes has no merit in this case as I am not speaking from a "practical" standpoint but rather from the position of the rules.

You invalidated yourself the moment you posted in argument with a job you have no practical experience with. Level it to 35+, then come back and comment after you've had EXP mobs and NMs stolen from you or lost EXP on a kill. Until then, refrain from comment.

Furthermore, other claim issues currently allow one HNMLS to MPK a rival HNMLS by stealing claim.

Another example, I was doing my coffer key in CZB the other day. RMT f'n swarm this place and claim everything in site, which is really frustrating. BUt I have my handy-dandy WHM sub on me. And so, I see and RMT BLM, 1/2 HP. I DS/Cure III him and... mob goes unclaimed and my friends rush in to nab it.

One more example.

Under the current claim system, if you sleepga a set of mob links. they will usually sleep until some of the go unclaimed over a period of time. But the sleeper and his PT still are on the hate list. And outsider can cast Diaga and MPK that PT because they're higher on the hate list than the outsider is.

This is NOT a BST-specific problem - the whole claim system is broken and its broken on many different levels.

Simply put - whether it soloing BST, and EXP PT or an alliance vs. HNMs - a claimed mob should remain claimed until death or the alliance wipes.

[little ninja]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

Ive commented on this very issue before but i guess i can give it another go around, When im fighting along side my karrigan in the tree against a goobdue. An i cast leave. There should be no way in hell the mob should go yellow. But it does. Why i didnt target a new mob, An i didnt cause damage to another mob. An if there is this new hate formula which states hate will bounce from member to member til all are dead or zone. Should 60% from my mady, An im 40%, When the mady leaves, shouldnt the mob stay red to me since i do have 40% of the total hate on it. it still feels the need to attack me, Yet it still wishs to go yellow. IT would be like you were fighting an NM an a party member d/c's. the mob doesnt go yellow. It continues to bash on you til your dead.. You can state that a pet technically isnt a party member. But if that was the case why do i lose exp as if it was an actual party member???

Mobs going unclaimed has been a problem since it came out. Of course it took S.E years to add bandaids to fix the obvious problem. Blockaid was there first attempt at a fix, But as we all know that didnt work. Then They changed the Hate chart. An that seems to only work part of the time.

[Sabaron]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

So this is the same thing that people use to steal HNMs during prolonged sessions after a high-percentage wipe and not something BST specific, necessarily. I take it Charm worked differently before the hate patch?



My signature being out of date has nothing to do with this... I just mentioned it and probably shouldn't have.

You will note, also, that when I said "You change your battle target as soon as you initiate the ability. If, for instance, you were to cast Paralyze on a second mob, you have changed your battle target and the original claim will eventually gold out unless someone else in your party has a valid claim on said mob. You can't have two mobs claimed at once. That's the rule."

Note the word eventually, which is, in fact, the same thing OMG said and therefore not wrong. The claim persists for a very short duration.

I was mistaken in the fact that I assumed that this [short-duration 2x claim followed by golding of the original mob] was how it was working for BST, currently, after a successful Charm. Even Provoke allows this short duration window of double claim. If Charm does not, then I would have to agree that it appears to be a bug or at the very least an undesirable feature ;).

As far as the whole claiming system being broken, if I am not mistaken, SE implemented the claiming changes in order to fix something that was previously broken. IIRC something about purple-label MPKing. I think the idea was that if something was attacking you, you had adequate hate to either (a) claim it or (b) keep it gold so that you could fight back. The newer methods of MPK seem to revolve around Sleep mechanics and multi-mob attacks (e.g. Dia'ing Pots in Sky) or by dropping "free-range" mobs into an area where your target is (e.g. Batallia Tiger Fishbot destruction). I haven't heard of any purple-claim MPKs since the patch. Is this the case with BST or do you get to fight back?

Here's a link to the patch I was referring to (and is probably the focus of this thread, though I'm still unsure of when this "change" occured to Charm):

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/2006_-_...Update_Details

I'm definitely not flopping on the idea that Charm itself is an Offensive Ability--you're attempting to use mind control on a monster. Don't Lamia's tick you off? Why shouldn't mobs get ticked off when you try to control them? Maiden's Virelai is also a Charm ability. Should we make it generate no enmity when successful as well?

[Necropolis]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

I would have to say the charm is an aggresive ability. The moment I use charm the mob comes running at me, before I know weather or not the charm was successful or not.

It generates enmity, which I'm assuming is why the mob attacks you when charm wears off. If the job ability it self did not generate enmity, what other reason would the mob have to attack you when when charm wears?

While I believe that charm is aggresive (successful or not), I do believe that the claim system for bst could be altered slightly to prevent claim from the main target from going unclaimed.

I've had some odd hate issues lately while leveling some lower jobs recently that I found odd. For example leveling in the dunes soloing on my thf that if I was engaged with a goblin, and I used a ranged attack on another goblin that my claimed mob did not swap. Even though I used an offensive ability on another target.

Another issue with the current claim system is links. Typically 1-20 I log in a friends account on my computer and solo to 20 to avoid dunes parties. If a mob links with another mob with me doing anything to it, no matter how much I'm cured, the linked mob will not change targets off me unless I attack it somehow (charm, voke, ranged attack etc).

And another, though more of a question. Kitten touched on it a little in his description of cor. I was duoing with a friend the other day, and we get a link, so I engage the link, while he's engaged with the other. He dies, and the gob of course attacks me, both mobs were claimed for well over 4 minutes. Is the claim system 1 mob per person or party?

I think perhaps a solution to this would be to make the claim target the mob with the most enmity agaisnt you. Which ever mob is the most ticked, is the one that is red. This I assume would fix the bst claim lost problem, no?

[Sabaron]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

More stuff on BST claiming:

1. When your pet is attacking a monster and is also tanking, the monster has enmity toward the pet that is greater than toward the BST.
2. When you release your pet, the enmity generated by the pet toward the monster is wiped away. The BST, himself, retains any enmity he personally generated by issuing enmity-generating commands (e.g. Sic) or by attacking the mob himself.
3. When you Charm a mob, you generate enmity on that mob. Generation of enmity creates a "claim" on the mob. Charm != Gauge. Gauge functions in the same manner as /check but it is BST specific.

4. When enmity is generated on the second mob, you relinquish your claim on the first mob and the claim eventually expires unless you use another enmity generating action on the first mob.

Unless the claim system immediately releases your first claimed mob (e.g. instantaneous golding of the mob) or in some way allows for purple-label MPK (which I doubt, but I could be wrong), then the system is functioning as specified in the aforementioned patch notes.

I don't speak for SE, but the greater majority of the FFXI community is aware of the rules that I am speaking of:

1. You may only claim one monster.
2. If you claim a second monster you lose your claim on the first.
3. Any action that generates enmity can be used to claim a monster.

If Charm does not adhere to the above (Generally known claim mechanics for Offensive Abilities), then the problem would be a bug because it's operation is not in accordance with the generally known rules of claiming. Otherwise, what you are requesting is a new feature (as I stated before "an exception to the rules for Charm").

The dispute here appears to be that Charm shouldn't produce enmity unless it fails which is contrary to the operation of other Offensive Spells & Abilities which generate enmity regardless of success or failure. As a secondary effect of "correcting" this by generating enmity only on failure, successfully charmed mobs would not bear any enmity toward the charmer and when the charm effect wore off, they would revert to a non-hate state and not attack the BST (the equivalent of giving free Leave on all charmed mobs without having to activate the ability).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why does changing pets causes loss of claim on a mob?

1. You may only claim one monster.
2. If you claim a second monster you lose your claim on the first.

Horde Lullabye disproves this, you can have more than one mob claimed at once for a set period of time. Go to a merit camp and you can see that plain as day.