Dunes Parties

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Me: I believe A.
Mez: Yeah, well, I can prove B. Therefore, you're wrong.

Congratulations on proving B. I'm glad you're having as much fun with the Straw man fallacy as Ray is with Ad hominem.

[Taskmage]

Re: Dunes Parties

The 2003-2004 point is that the popular camps were established in 2003-2004, and the reason people still prefer those camps has more to do with social momentum than anything else. Actually, if we really want a history lesson, Qufim became a popular camp before RotZ back when the only TP move bones could do was their single target melee slash, which made the larger number of undead pops in Qufim an advantage rather than a disadvantage. When they got their AoE moves, that brought Qufim more in line with other Jeuno-adjacent areas, but nobody bothered to move because it still worked.

I can't believe that ten years into the game there are still closed-minded sticks in the mud that think cookie cutter play must necessarily be the best way to play, but I guess if that weren't true then we wouldn't have to worry about things like social momentum.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Qufim became a popular camp before RotZ back when the only TP move bones could do was their single target melee slash

Wait, they could only Hell Slash pre-RoZ? Holy shit. Must've been Monk heaven.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

Wait, they could only Hell Slash pre-RoZ? Holy shit. Must've been Monk heaven.

I remember reading elsewhere that the predominantly JP playerbase took to calling it "Bone-Bone Fantasy" at the time. Do remember that KRT was still a cult following for the longest time even after RotZ. A rough ToAU equivalent would've been something like "Colibri Fantasy XI".

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Wasn't the whole Pentaspam thing pre-RoZ too? Or did that happen post-NA release?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

I'm pretty sure it was patched post-NA release. Thus, the lolDRG syndrome that persisted half an eternity (yet further evidence of the stubborn inertia of the playerbase).

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

Ray, I'll give you a hint: those other 89 Berry Grubs were in the real camps, where the Rolanberries are. And just who are these "so many others?" Do I get to make up imaginary players to back up my claims too?

You are making up imaginary numbers based on even more imaginary data without having even tried partying there back then. At least I have personal experience actually partying in those places, and the players I partied with hopefully weren't just in my imagination, because the game also believed they were there as well.

Also remember that (again) my point here was that people chose Qufim for a reason, not that it was impossible to party in Rolanberry. And whether they kept going due to inertia or not doesn't change the fact that in practice it simply worked better. Also remember that I never said I was against alternative camps or was advocating for "cookie-cutter camps onry" in any way.

My point was and still is (for the 10th time since people still seems to want to ignore it for some reason) that your theory does not work that well in practice and that that is the reason I (and those imaginary others) didn't bother partying there.

----

But all things considered I'm now actually looking forward to seeing the results for both Qufim and Rolanberry. The number of viable camps, the xp/hr rate and the number of parties the areas can support. Even better if you included Batallia and Merip<sic> but that probably would be too much.

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

as Ray is with Ad hominem.

When did I start attacking your character? XD

I mean I have no idea how good with math you actually are, but you do show that same flaw many theorists have when the stupid reality doesn't match their beautiful formulae.

But my rejection of your theory has nothing to do with it, but with my personal experiences partying in the zone(s) in question. And if your detailed study shows that Rolanberry is indeed superior to Qufim then that's that, no matter how math-looney you may be.

I just hope if data shows otherwise you wont resort to messing with the numbers to prove your point, of course.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

You are making up imaginary numbers based on even more imaginary data without having even tried partying there back then.

Again with the B. Let's go back to A. You picked a bad camp. That data point is borderline worthless.

And whether they kept going due to inertia or not doesn't change the fact that in practice it simply worked better.

You still have no proof that it works better, or that they tried other zones at all. I doubt people were calculating EXP/hour in 2002; it wouldn't have done them much good.

I just hope if data shows otherwise you wont resort to messing with the numbers to prove your point, of course.

If I wanted so desperately to be right, I'd just lie and save myself the time and money.

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

What do you mean borderline worthless? It is worthless, there is no data to begin with.

And the reason for that is that we simply didn't play the game using the scientific method. We didn't show up at an area equipped with our Labcoat Armor +1 and armed with a Sword of Math and a Parser Shield.

What we did back then was simply go to the area, try out the potential camp someone had the brilliant idea to propose (and it sucked), then move to another option (and it sucked), then try roaming the area and avoiding aggro*. We would then eventually maybe find a relatively decent camp and stay there for a while to pretend we hadn't just wasted 2+ hours of our lives. We then disbanded to never go back to that area if possible.

And that's about it.


But the thing is at least we tried. We went there and tried, personally. Now, once you do that and get your statistics you may be able to refute the notion that the place was not worth it, but in the mean time you'd do well to keep some healthy skepticism about your theories just as you do about my personal experiences and the experiences of other players in the area.




*And lvl 18-22-ish just wasn't very good for roaming if I remember correctly.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

Also remember that (again) my point here was that people chose Qufim for a reason, not that it was impossible to party in Rolanberry. And whether they kept going due to inertia or not doesn't change the fact that in practice it simply worked better. Also remember that I never said I was against alternative camps or was advocating for "cookie-cutter camps onry" in any way.

I second this, but since Armando chose to take his arguement to 2003, i stopped argueing. LOL. When in doubt, change the time frame to when no one knew anything, then any experience you have after that time frame such as gameplay experience or websites discussing various camps and XP rates per hour are null and void because they havent happened yet. LOL

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

I second this, but since Armando chose to take his arguement to 2003, i stopped argueing. LOL.

We were all on the same page from the get-go except you Mez.

At the time Qufim was the best and more practical choice actually.

At the time Qufim was

At the time

Even if you haven't been reading my posts, I figured you'd at least be reading Taskmage's.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

Except we actually don't have a whole lot of data concerning Rolanberry Fields . . . Just opposing anecdotal evidence between Ray and TM.

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

And the Crawler's nest camp TM mentions wasn't that good either unless there were people outside killing the Ochus, otherwise you ran the risk of having to go around them and I think gobs or something around that place. And Grubs weren't that low level to begin with, so you probably had to be at least lvl 20 to try that place anyway if I remember correctly.


So the test needs to include data between levels 18 and 22 in order to disqualify Qufim because that's the level people went there. You got 18, leveled your sub, went to Jeuno and killed worms, got 20 and your choco license, then crabs and fish or gobs inside etc. Same with subs, except without the License part.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

And the Crawler's nest camp TM mentions wasn't that good either unless there were people outside killing the Ochus, otherwise you ran the risk of having to go around them and I think gobs or something around that place. And Grubs weren't that low level to begin with, so you probably had to be at least lvl 20 to try that place anyway if I remember correctly.

It's not like you don't have to avoid Gigas in some parts of Qufim, or move camp because of undead. Ochu's sound aggro range is pretty pityful. Depending on the kind of gob or Quadav we're talking about, they can be killed for EXP as well. And again, what kills Qufim is the logistics. Getting to camp? 15 minutes. Somebody died? 10-20 minutes downtime. Replace someone? Another 10-20 minutes on top of whatever it took you to find a rep. Night time? Good chance you'll have to move camp because of undead spawn points. All those problems compound each other.

If you include level 18 then it's even worse. There just aren't enough worms to go around and you can't pull worms, so you're fighting them out in the open hoping no one aggros a Gigas or Wight. For whatever it's worth, Rolanberry Fields and Batallia Downs have level 23-25 crabs for the level 18's. If I remember right Batallia's are even relatively close to the Jeuno zone line. The birds in Batallia are also viable at level 19, especially with THFs, RNGs or DRGs, even more so if you have a pair of blink tanks since IIRC helldive will only take 1 shadow and Wing Cutter shouldn't take any. But a PLD shouldn't have problems either since Helldive can't crit, which is the main reason Screwdriver kills people.