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  • #31
    Re: Dunes Parties

    Ray's right. Look at it this way. If Rolanberry was actually a good camp, you would see a party camped there... The fact that no one was ever there is the answer to the question.
    75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
    RANK 10 Bastok
    CoP: Done
    ZM: Done
    ToA: Done
    Assault rank: Captain
    Campaign Medal: Medals
    Wotg: Complete the quests already and I'll start

    Originally posted by Etra
    This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Dunes Parties

      Originally posted by Mezlo
      If Rolanberry was actually a good camp, you would see a party camped there... The fact that no one was ever there is the answer to the question.
      Not that I have any way of proving my claims (haven't logged into FFXI in over 2 years, and even if I did, I hear mid level partying is dead), but I don't buy that. Everyone follows the beaten path. Finding your own camp requires knowing how many levels above you a mob should be, which zones have a decent number of mobs at those levels, and where in the zone it would be safe to camp. It's so much easier for both you and the people you're trying to convince to simply go to the established camps. If anyone argues that Lv.X is too low for Y zone you can just counter with "Got any better ideas?" which they probably don't, because they'd have to do research to answer that question and any EXP is better than no EXP.

      Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck (seriously, any mob that has the courtesy of killing itself is OK in my book.) And unlike Yhoator, a pair of NINs or WAR/NINs can actually work in those camps. I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck. People would disband the party and waste 45 minutes going to go Yuhtunga at 24 and take forever to kill IT++ Mandragora when there's a perfectly usable camp 1 minute away, with a nearby zone line to fall back on. I did try Delkfutt's and it works.

      It took years for people to realize that Defense and VIT are busted and that a PLD will tank better with Accuracy gear and a Haubergeon. The first couple of times, people laughed. "You're hurting your evasion!" they said. Nobody stopped to think that the only reason a PLD evades at all is because the mob is forced to miss 5% of the time. Then people started doing it and it worked and suddenly it was common knowledge that a PLD should get a Haubergeon if he can.

      Ray cites running out of mobs, so I'm curious where he camped. All of the "farms" (the parts with fences and rolanberries) are densely packed with grubs. If anything I expected the problem to be difficulty in pulling without linking, not running out of mobs. You also have to consider that getting a replacement in Qufim is a logistical nightmare. The usual wait time is what, 20 minutes at least? And that lost time is counting against the play time of the next party member to drop from the party. Even if you pull slow in Rolanberry for whatever reasons, once you have to replace anyone and they can just Chocobo straight to camp Qufim falls behind again. And if someone dies? They can be back at camp in 3 minutes. Contrast that to Qufim where people will waste 5 minutes shouting for Raise and wait another 5 for the Raise to arrive, and another 5 for Raise sickness to wear off, if you have good luck and get someone; or the person HPs and takes 10-15 minutes to get there anyways depending on where he died and the time of day. And all else being equal, you'll kill Crawlers faster than Crabs so even if the pulls are long and slow, the battles won't take as long.

      I could be wrong though, maybe Rolanberry Fields doesn't have a single camp that's better than Qufim. There's still Batallia Downs and Sauromugue Champaign which have the same mob levels, just different species (birds and beetles). All 3 zones have Goblins and regional Beastmen of comparable level as well. Surely there's at least ONE camp in all that land?

      tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
      Last edited by Armando; 07-31-2012, 08:49 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Dunes Parties

        Originally posted by Armando View Post
        tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
        Right. Because no one parses, cares about XP per hour, or even keeps up with numbers in FFXI. Right? Right? Oh, wait. No, opposite...

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by Armando View Post
        Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck
        I camped this. ALOT. Not sure of your playing times, but this was a major camp.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by Armando View Post
        I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck.
        Again, a MAJOR camp. I hit this camp on almost every single one of my jobs leveling up. Again, maybe your playing times?
        75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
        RANK 10 Bastok
        CoP: Done
        ZM: Done
        ToA: Done
        Assault rank: Captain
        Campaign Medal: Medals
        Wotg: Complete the quests already and I'll start

        Originally posted by Etra
        This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Dunes Parties

          Right. Because no one parses, cares about XP per hour, or even keeps up with numbers in FFXI. Right? Right? Oh, wait. No, opposite...
          I'm not sure where you're going with this. My point is that you can't start with the premise "I haven't observed X" and conclude "X doesn't exist." Otherwise, no one would've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars looking for the Higgs Boson.

          To prove Rolanberry Fields is viable just requires someone to find a single camp that works. To prove that it doesn't, you'd need to try every single camp and show that they're all worse than Qufim. And you'd still need to check every camp in Batallia and Sauromugue to prove that there's no alternative to Qufim. If you can show me someone who's done that, you win. Until then, neither of us has proof, so you sure can't say I'm wrong yet.

          EDIT: If you know 5 other suckers on whatever server sucked up Midgard willing to lose 2-3 hours of their lives, I'll put my money where my mouth is and resubscribe just to test out my theory.
          Last edited by Armando; 07-31-2012, 10:47 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Dunes Parties

            Originally posted by Armando View Post
            Not that I have any way of proving my claims (haven't logged into FFXI in over 2 years, and even if I did, I hear mid level partying is dead), but I don't buy that. Everyone follows the beaten path. Finding your own camp requires knowing how many levels above you a mob should be, which zones have a decent number of mobs at those levels, and where in the zone it would be safe to camp. It's so much easier for both you and the people you're trying to convince to simply go to the established camps. If anyone argues that Lv.X is too low for Y zone you can just counter with "Got any better ideas?" which they probably don't, because they'd have to do research to answer that question and any EXP is better than no EXP.

            Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck (seriously, any mob that has the courtesy of killing itself is OK in my book.) And unlike Yhoator, a pair of NINs or WAR/NINs can actually work in those camps. I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck. People would disband the party and waste 45 minutes going to go Yuhtunga at 24 and take forever to kill IT++ Mandragora when there's a perfectly usable camp 1 minute away, with a nearby zone line to fall back on. I did try Delkfutt's and it works.

            It took years for people to realize that Defense and VIT are busted and that a PLD will tank better with Accuracy gear and a Haubergeon. The first couple of times, people laughed. "You're hurting your evasion!" they said. Nobody stopped to think that the only reason a PLD evades at all is because the mob is forced to miss 5% of the time. Then people started doing it and it worked and suddenly it was common knowledge that a PLD should get a Haubergeon if he can.

            Ray cites running out of mobs, so I'm curious where he camped. All of the "farms" (the parts with fences and rolanberries) are densely packed with grubs. If anything I expected the problem to be difficulty in pulling without linking, not running out of mobs. You also have to consider that getting a replacement in Qufim is a logistical nightmare. The usual wait time is what, 20 minutes at least? And that lost time is counting against the play time of the next party member to drop from the party. Even if you pull slow in Rolanberry for whatever reasons, once you have to replace anyone and they can just Chocobo straight to camp Qufim falls behind again. And if someone dies? They can be back at camp in 3 minutes. Contrast that to Qufim where people will waste 5 minutes shouting for Raise and wait another 5 for the Raise to arrive, and another 5 for Raise sickness to wear off, if you have good luck and get someone; or the person HPs and takes 10-15 minutes to get there anyways depending on where he died and the time of day. And all else being equal, you'll kill Crawlers faster than Crabs so even if the pulls are long and slow, the battles won't take as long.

            I could be wrong though, maybe Rolanberry Fields doesn't have a single camp that's better than Qufim. There's still Batallia Downs and Sauromugue Champaign which have the same mob levels, just different species (birds and beetles). All 3 zones have Goblins and regional Beastmen of comparable level as well. Surely there's at least ONE camp in all that land?

            tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
            Do you really, honestly, think people never tried? That you are somehow blessed with an uncanny insight that beats both JP and NA players who played the game for years back then? I already said people did try those camps almost 10 years ago before settling for Qufim and before deciding it was actually better to go to the tunnel in Basty or inside Delkfut's than staying in Rolanberry and the other zones around Jeuno.

            But if you are so in love with your numbers to bother with actual field experience then carry on.
            sigpic
            "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
            Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

            その目だれの目。

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Dunes Parties

              Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
              Do you really, honestly, think people never tried? That you are somehow blessed with an uncanny insight that beats both JP and NA players who played the game for years back then?
              Again, i really need to side with Ray. Rolanberry is so close to Jeuno, do you really think someone didnt try all the possible camps that made sense, compare XP/hour with other camps, and that's why they chose Qufim? I didn't do it, but i can guarantee some hard core players tried and parsed all plausible camps around Vanadiel, and since Qufim had the best XP/hour, thats where most people flocked to. Again, none of this can be proven, all I'm asking you to do is to actually think of the hardcore FFXI player base, think how number-centric they were with parsing and XP gains per hour, and then really ask yourself, do you really think no one ever tried heading south from jeuno instead of north to try out camp options???
              75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
              RANK 10 Bastok
              CoP: Done
              ZM: Done
              ToA: Done
              Assault rank: Captain
              Campaign Medal: Medals
              Wotg: Complete the quests already and I'll start

              Originally posted by Etra
              This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Dunes Parties

                Rolanberry is so close to Jeuno, do you really think someone didnt try all the possible camps that made sense, compare XP/hour with other camps, and that's why they chose Qufim?
                Yes, I think that.

                Think about what you need to realize a new camp is viable:
                1) You need a comprehensive table that tells you the level ranges for each /check message and the exact EXP yields. This table has to be accurate for all level ranges.
                2) You need a list of all the mobs in all the zones, along with their precise level ranges. If you haven't actually been to the zone, you'd also want the number of mobs so you can tell if they're common. A way to search interactively would be a HUGE plus.
                3) You need to know how high level a mob can be before it's just plain unsafe.
                4) You need to visit the zone and scout for safe places to camp.

                Now pretend it's 2002, no one has any knowledge of the game. Think about what it takes to find this shit out. The only way to know a mob's level for sure is to be the same level as it (and even that presupposes that Even Match = same level as you.) What are you going to do? Trial and error. You're going to get 6 people together and you're going to fight shit, die, and fight more shit until you find something that works. And after doing that, do you really think you'd go through the trouble of dying some more to find alternate camps?

                When the first settlers colonized Qufim Island they probably didn't even have Meat Mithkabobs to eat. It took years for people to figure all of this shit out. For the longest time, players put EXP/kill above all else, even if that meant taking 3 minutes to kill a crab and being out of MP after killing only two. By the time anyone would've had the chance to explore alternative camps, and have some common sense, Qufim Island would've been well established. I can assure you no one on the NA side was using a parser in 2003. Maybe some were by 2004, but those were still the times of lolDRG, lolBST, lolWAR, aspiring PLDs and DRKs going WAR/WHM and WAR/BLM with sword and board or great sword. Those were the times of the BradyGames guide. Ignorance is not so easily undone.

                Imagine I go back to 2005 and camp Rolanberry and it's actually good. Do you think it's going to be The Next Big Thing? No, it'll probably just be an interesting footnote in the history of my other five party members.

                More importantly, I don't think you understand how few players give a fuck. Take it from someone who spent much, much more time testing shit in FFXI than actually leveling or doing endgame or doing missions. There's less than a 0.1% that actually cares about finding stuff out. There's another 1% that can't be bothered to test, but are interested enough in the latest developments. The other 99% are just following the 1%. Until 2008, all of our tanking was based on voodoo and superstition. Kaeko figured Enmity out in one month, but it took six years for a single person to step up to the plate.
                But if you are so in love with your numbers to bother with actual field experience then carry on.
                Your anecdote is just that: a single data point. I wish half my tests were so simple.

                My offer still stands. Find me 5 guinea pigs and I'll resubscribe.
                Last edited by Armando; 07-31-2012, 04:22 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Dunes Parties

                  Originally posted by Armando View Post
                  Think about what you need to realize a new camp is viable:
                  1) You need a comprehensive table that tells you the level ranges for each /check message and the exact EXP yields. This table has to be accurate for all level ranges.
                  2) You need a list of all the mobs in all the zones, along with their precise level ranges. If you haven't actually been to the zone, you'd also want the number of mobs so you can tell if they're common. A way to search interactively would be a HUGE plus.
                  3) You need to know how high level a mob can be before it's just plain unsafe.
                  4) You need to visit the zone and scout for safe places to camp.
                  These four points are easily answered by ffxiclopedia, common sense, and a trip to Rolanberry. Next?
                  75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
                  RANK 10 Bastok
                  CoP: Done
                  ZM: Done
                  ToA: Done
                  Assault rank: Captain
                  Campaign Medal: Medals
                  Wotg: Complete the quests already and I'll start

                  Originally posted by Etra
                  This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Dunes Parties

                    Armando, I'd be willing to resub just to try this out though. I missed the whole exploring in the game.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Dunes Parties

                      Originally posted by Mezlo
                      These four points are easily answered by ffxiclopedia, common sense, and a trip to Rolanberry. Next?
                      Next would be actually reading my post instead of just skimming it. There was no FFXIClopedia (or common sense) in 2003.
                      Originally posted by Takelli
                      Armando, I'd be willing to resub just to try this out though. I missed the whole exploring in the game.
                      Were you on Midgard (or whatever server it is now)?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Dunes Parties

                        Hmm.

                        Catnarok.

                        Carbymesh.

                        Midgardsalcoatl.

                        If I recall correctly.
                        Originally posted by Armando
                        No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
                        Originally posted by Armando
                        Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
                        Originally posted by Taskmage
                        GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

                        REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

                        GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

                        THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
                        Originally posted by Taskmage
                        However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
                        Matthew 16:15

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Dunes Parties

                          Originally posted by Armando View Post
                          .Were you on Midgard (or whatever server it is now)?
                          No, Alexander Server. Which is now Shiva. But, Transfers can't be all that much.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Dunes Parties

                            But, Transfers can't be all that much.
                            They're $25 if the official site is still current. A bit more than what I'd like to spend just for one experiment.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Dunes Parties

                              This should be interesting. I still see no reason for it, but it should be interesting.

                              Good luck guys. XD
                              sigpic
                              "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                              Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                              その目だれの目。

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Dunes Parties

                                I'll definitely be trying this out myself whenever I get around to leveling BLM, DNC, or Rune Fencer. Because I am most certainly not ever doing an exp party in Qufim Island ever again.
                                Originally posted by Armando
                                No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
                                Originally posted by Armando
                                Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
                                Originally posted by Taskmage
                                GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

                                REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

                                GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

                                THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
                                Originally posted by Taskmage
                                However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
                                Matthew 16:15

                                Comment

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