VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Again:

Why is it so important to you that a franchise continue when the people that made it special are gone and are not interested and have moved on?

Sakaguchi and Uematsu still work together and make some nice games. Blue Dragon (hell that was a reunion of the three creative forces behind CT), Lost Odyssey and soon The Last Story. Does it have to be Final Fantasy under SE's roof?

No.

[Armando]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Why is it so important to you that a franchise continue when the people that made it special are gone and are not interested and have moved on?

That's not the point. If they can't, won't, or don't want to continue a franchise, that's fine. They shouldn't be obligated to. But if someone else wants to do something with that franchise, the least you can do is sell it to them. When you sit on a copyright for 15 years and do nothing with it, just so no one else can turn a profit, you're doing the opposite of what copyrights are supposed to do: promote innovation.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

I think the Mona Lisa could do with a few extra brush strokes. Let me go get my mop, it'll be exquisite.

[Raydeus]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

I think the Mona Lisa could do with a few extra brush strokes. Let me go get my mop, it'll be exquisite.

That's not how it works Cid!

The point is that after the Mona Lisa becomes public domain everyone who wants to can make their own version of it. They are not going to paint over the original work, but make their own. But in a corporate world you could not make another work with the same composition as the Mona Lisa. Which is retarded.


Same with this games, if they are public domain people can make remakes or sequels as they see fit. But that doesn't mean they will take ownership of the original game or that people will be forced to like it. Same with IPs like Star Trek (or Star Wars), just remember how many fan sites were banned because the Paramount and Lolcas Arts didn't like people making their own content about their IP. Well, Copyright should protect authors for some time so they can profit from their work, but after a certain amount of time it should go public domain so more stuff gets created. Otherwise you end up with milking garbage like the episodes 1-3 and without any chance for people who can make something better to be able to do so.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

The problem is that video game franchises are basically contiguous pieces of art. When you've finished your masterpiece and are satisfied with it, you don't want some rabble wandering up and picking up the brush and continuing to paint.

The whole issue is of course horribly complicated by the fact that video game franchises are also products, made with the intent to be sold for a profit so we have competing agendas in play regarding their ownership, development and distribution. It's an absolute clusterfuck of a thing, but if the people who made the franchise want to sit on it and let it rot I totally understand why they would do that.

[Armando]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

When you've finished your masterpiece and are satisfied with it, you don't want some rabble wandering up and picking up the brush and continuing to paint.

I still remember the first time I saw the original Star Wars DOOM mod. Seeing how someone had put the death star into our game felt so amazingly cool. I was so proud of what had been made possible, and I was completely sure that making games that could serve as a canvas for other people to work on was a valid direction.

This is the same guy that released the source code of the Doom engine in 1997, only 4 years after the game was out. The levels and assets are still copyrighted, but nothing stops you from buying the DOS game on Steam and using those files on a port of the engine for Linux.

When you create art, you don't have a say in how people feel about it. You may not want people writing fan-fiction based on your work and shipping characters A and B, but that's what they want! If you don't want people "picking up the brush" then you keep your art to yourself. But that's not an option when you intend to sell it.

It's an absolute clusterfuck of a thing, but if the people who made the franchise want to sit on it and let it rot I totally understand why they would do that.

I can understand why a company would want a monopoly on something too, that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

[Raydeus]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

The entire Disney monopoly was built on material under Public Domain.

Entire new quality game franchises could easily spawn from Public Domain IPs. Some people will prefer the "official" content, but others will prefer the alternative content made by other creators. Making more content, that's the point.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

This is the same guy that released the source code of the Doom engine in 1997, only 4 years after the game was out. The levels and assets are still copyrighted, but nothing stops you from buying the DOS game on Steam and using those files on a port of the engine for Linux.

When you create art, you don't have a say in how people feel about it. You may not want people writing fan-fiction based on your work and shipping characters A and B, but that's what they want! If you don't want people "picking up the brush" then you keep your art to yourself. But that's not an option when you intend to sell it.I can understand why a company would want a monopoly on something too, that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

You're equating the raw materials with a finished product in that example.

Releasing the engine is one thing, while releasing the rights to make new entries into your franchise for whoever happens to wander by and having it bear your name is quite another. You didn't see another game in the Doom franchise come out of all that modding, you got cool mods. The next entry in the Doom franchise came from the people who were in charge of the franchise itself.

If I write a brilliant novel as my life's work, I do not want whoever enjoyed the novel coming along and writing the sequel. It doesn't have to be about monopolizing the cash flow, it can be just as much about protecting the integrity of your art.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess what I'm really saying is that I don't want any new entries in the Chrono Trigger franchise because the first game was fucking perfect and any additions from then on just devalue the franchise as a whole.

[Armando]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Releasing the engine is one thing, while releasing the rights to make new entries into your franchise for whoever happens to wander by and having it bear your name is quite another.

Absolutely correct. But the point is that id, like Valve, was pro-modder, pro-player, pro-fan.

If I write a brilliant novel as my life's work, I do not want whoever enjoyed the novel coming along and writing the sequel. It doesn't have to be about monopolizing the cash flow, it can be just as much about protecting the integrity of your art.

I sympathize, and I understand, but...tough. At some point, someone will. You can take some comfort in the fact that it won't happen 'til 70 years after you're dead, but still, it's going to happen, and you don't have a say in it. If you let that bother you, you frustrate your fans and you frustrate yourself. Embrace your fans. Appreciate them. You don't have to like their shitty fanfics, but you also don't have to let it bother you that they're writing shitty fanfics. And who knows, the 1% that produces worthwhile shit might just inspire you for the sequel.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

The problem comes when shitty fanfics get published and become an official part of the franchise, which is what you're advocating as far as I can tell.

[Armando]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

But that already happens! See: Disney. Also, once you're dead, you'll no longer be able to care about such things.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Yes, but Disney isn't part of some Grimm's Fairytales franchise now is it? Besides they're not adding on new stories, they're simply re-telling them. Also: dead clause is in effect there.

I keep trying to think of a good analogy to help illustrate my stance on all of this but every time I do it becomes horribly convoluted because the situation is just so muddled.

[Armando]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Besides they're not adding on new stories, they're simply re-telling them.

Yes, but they change things about them all the time, generally to make them less scary or gruesome (irony!) So that certainly fucks with the integrity of whomever originally came up with the story. On the flip side, Ariel is pretty hot.

[cidbahamut]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Yes, but they change things about them all the time, generally to make them less scary or gruesome (irony!) So that certainly fucks with the integrity of whomever originally came up with the story. On the flip side, Ariel is pretty hot.

Long since lost to history since it's all folk tales/oral tradition. Again, they're dead so it no longer matters(we pretty much agree on that point).

[Yygdrasil]

Re: VanaFest 2012 Recap: The Facts by Elmer

Correct me if I'm wrong... but wasn't Counterstrike a mod created from the Halflife engine's SC? The guys responsible simply took the canvas of Halflife and painted right over it... and look at it now. It's a thriving and self-sustaining franchise that has spawned multiple spin-offs as well as the ever-popular HD adaptation (Source). It's got a wildly supportive fan base and doesn't seem to be dying any time soon... although it currently flys under the radar since it's Source launch more than 8 years ago.