Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

[Rostum]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

I don't really care about this, there's no way in hell I'll put in that amount of effort. The thing I'm annoyed with is other things that Tanaka has done or wants to do. Coming back late to the game I feel Abyssea was really a step in the right direction. It had a nice balance of challenge and reward. With Tanaka, you have to sink a ridiculous amount of time for maybe getting a reward. I much prefer smaller grouped (2-12 people) content, and having it be rewarding so long as you put in a resonable amount of effort and time.

But there doesn't seem to be any hint of that. Legion sounds like a bunch of crap, and I bet the drop rates will be lower than Voidwatch because Tanaka is too stubborn to realise how much MMO's have changed and what the general MMO user base wants.

Oh well... I do like what Yoshi P has been doing, and for his sake I really hope FFXIV 2.0 turns out good because he deserves it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

I don't really care about this, there's no way in hell I'll put in that amount of effort. The thing I'm annoyed with is other things that Straw-Tanaka has done or wants to do. Coming back late to the game I feel Abyssea was really a step in the right direction. It had a nice balance of challenge and reward. With Straw-Tanaka, you have to sink a ridiculous amount of time for maybe getting a reward. I much prefer smaller grouped (2-12 people) content, and having it be rewarding so long as you put in a resonable amount of effort and time.

But there doesn't seem to be any hint of that. Legion sounds like a bunch of crap, and I bet the drop rates will be lower than Voidwatch because Straw-Tanaka is too stubborn to realise how much MMO's have changed and what the general MMO user base wants.

Oh well... I do like what Yoshi P has been doing, and for his sake I really hope FFXIV 2.0 turns out good because he deserves it.

Reading is awesome.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Put legitimately difficult fights between players and the shiny. What a novel concept, making the barrier to access be some degree of aptitude rather than just making sure someone has utterly absurd amounts of free time and minions at their beck and call.

Vague bullshit.

Aks, however, basically described a sort of "Boss Rush" challenge. An endurance test. That's a more specific idea. It would require some restrictions, probably some options for recovery on the field like Limbus chests or Abyssea buffs, but item restrictions to prevent a Gil sink. Set it up like an ENM, a weekly solo challenge and say complete this challenge five times for each different national challenge.

If you're good, it's yours in less than four months, if not perhaps longer.

But I think people would complain. SE has spoiled them with Easy Mode FFXI.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Dismissive retort, how predictable.

How many BCNMs/HNMs/Missions/etc were legitimately difficult to complete if you had competent players to throw at them? The hardest part of FFXI is not the content, it is finding other people to do it with who don't wear their pants on their head.

[Feba]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

BBQ, remember when SE went around to various FFXI podcasts? One of them was LBR, and I won that SL statue for a list of suggestions I've sent in.

Naturally, as far as I can tell, none of those ideas have been implemented in any capacity; because SE wants people to dream of better games for some reason, but not actually make them. SE doesn't listen to its players, simple as that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Dismissive retort, how predictable.

How many BCNMs/HNMs/Missions/etc were legitimately difficult to complete if you had competent players to throw at them? The hardest part of FFXI is not the content, it is finding other people to do it with who don't wear their pants on their head.

And I'm sure with that wonderful attitude - no matter how true of all MMOs - is one that makes you tons of friends. How are we supposed to take you seriously when your best idea is "make it challenging for once" and the vast majority only finds the game fun when the content becomes a total pushover? That latter point seems to be consistent in a lot of MMOs.

People used to say Blizzard "listens" but now the majority of hardcore players are much like that off FFXI. They don't care about preservation of old content or challenge. They wait for a level increase or a nerf to challenging content. And no matter how much a developer listens there is always someone deeply butthurt who will be the vocal minority.

I left FFXI when I did because I didn't see a trend away from Easy Mode and there was no mystery anymore. The removal of level caps from CoP and announcement of 99 cap showed me SE was willing to sacrifice what had been good content for teaching people to have thier shit together. They just wanted to keep those that deeply wanted more Easy Mode.

And they got you.

An MMO is generally better in its early years than the long haul. I knew people that loved EQOA because it felt like the older days of EQ where things got easier or nerfed. What got WoW staying power was strong PVP and a take it or leave it design, it was never good at preserving content or end game content. Deathwing might be a badass now but how long after Mists of Pandara?

Waiting around for an MMO to become the game you always wanted (or wanted again) is the road to disappointment.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Dismissive retort, how predictable.

[Mezlo]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

BBQ, remember when SE went around to various FFXI podcasts? One of them was LBR, and I won that SL statue for a list of suggestions I've sent in.

I do remember that, and the thread you made regarding it. They were good suggestions... Hmmm... Let me see if i can find that thread...

[Malacite]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

I actually have to object (somewhat) to Abyssea being "Easy Mode" XI - Yeah Atma is grossly overpowering, but the fact remains that the content was designed in such a way as to sufficiently reward players for their effort. Putting Atma & the Brew aside, these NMs pose a good challenge (some of them are downright evil even with a brew and atma, Hi2u Rani) but most importantly, you get your time's worth when doing Abyssea. Yeah there's still the odd bs of bad luck (all PUP seals dropping for example) but you still always have a good shot of getting at least part of what you wanted.

Contrast this to virtually all of the old content where you'd be forced to grind for hours in full groups or alliances, and maybe 1 or 2 people would get what they wanted, IF THEY WERE LUCKY! No, Abyssea was very much a sign of hope for things to come, and dev team shat all over that. And Cid brings up an absolutely valid point about challenge; look at CoP. Those mission fights were hard, but not impossible. They emphasized teamwork and preparation, genuinely posing a challenge to players.

Contrast this with most of the other content in the game where the NMs are simply overpowered as hell, or the actual content itself is easy but the rewards are so bad that you're forced to sink unconscionable amounts of time into the event to get a paltry reward in comparison to the effort put in. That's the kind of BS Tanaka represents, and I'm sorry to see it come back in force.

[Raydeus]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Let's make something very clear here. Abyssea was not Easy Mode, but Accessible Mode instead.

And while it was probably a mistake having such a low level requirement for entry the real broken stuff comes only after you've progressed quite some through Abyssea, getting rewards all the way to the top. Always able to party with strangers along the way, with no more requirement than being in the same place at the same time to get something (NM, xp, trial, etc.) done for the most part.

Same with Magian Trials, some people hated them, but at least they were doable with people you would actually find playing in the game. Not the imaginary band of brothers the old team was developing for.

And as I've said before, XI has never been difficult or required special skills whatsoever. The only difficulty about most things has always been just getting people with enough time for them, not the fights themselves. And definitely not the grinds, after all time sink do not equal a challenge. And if it looks like the good old days were better is just nostalgia because not only there were more people playing the game but it was also still fresh for the community so they were much more willing to endure the awfully designed chores thrown at them.

Heck, CoP's completion rate before the cap removal proved that when SE tried to make more challenging party-exclusive content things imploded not due to the difficulty, but due to the inaccessibility. For most players were unable to get enough people to static all the way to completion, even among Japanese players who were supposed to be the team workers. Why a static? Simply because without a static the content was near impossible to complete and in reality setting up said static was much more challenging for players than the old team wanted to accept.

So yeah, TL;DR I hope these trials are no indication of the Return of the Tanakas.

[Armando]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Let's keep this civil people. You have the right to be opinionated, but that doesn't mean you have to be a dick while you're at it.

Heck, CoP's completion rate before the cap removal proved that when SE tried to make more challenging party-exclusive content things imploded not due to the difficulty, but due to the inaccessibility. For most players were unable to get enough people to static all the way to completion, even among Japanese players who were supposed to be the team workers. Why a static? Simply because without a static the content was near impossible to complete and in reality setting up said static was much more challenging for players than the old team wanted to accept.

Yes, CoP was an accessibility nightmare. But the last fights of ToAU were at CoP levels of difficulty, and they were accessible, barring the JP midnight waiting bullshit. As I understand it WotG was about the same as ToAU in terms of design. What was the problem with that model? EDIT: And Nyzul was challenging AND accessible. No bullshit, just show up and go, schedule it at your leisure. Good rewards considering it was 6 man content.

And while Abyssea is a breath of fresh air for people that had been struggling with putting people together events, was the level cap increase that came with it really necessary? Couldn't Abyssea exist at level 75?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

CoPs didn't have an accessibility problem any more than Nyzul Isle did.

How does a Nyzul Run go wrong? When people come unprepared. You bring oils, powders, and tools. You make sure you have a job that can heal or tank if there's a boss and a condition that can impair a job No ifs, ands or buts. And yet people still skimp, chance the wrong setups and groups suffer. We all know the lamp floors with mobs we need to sneak around exist. We know that white magic might well be useless for a boss level because of the randomized conditions.

Same thing with CoP, the only difference being the conditions for each mission are static and when someone fucked up or came unprepared or didn't do their quests objectives when the rest of your group completed them that a lot more time was wasted. Same thing with Rank missions.

Someone else being an idiot isn't a game design flaw. I kicked idiots for a reason - to save my groups time. The people that really wanted it came prepared and there was no struggle when they were around. Fights were still challenging and with the right group highly rewarding.

[Rostum]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Reading is awesome.

You know what else is awesome? Discussing things like a normal human being, rather than being a jerk about things.

Anyways, I went through CoP before the level caps got unlocked. It felt like it wasn't as accessible as other content in the game, but overall I enjoyed the major fights a lot more than anything else in the game. We ended up having to develop a static party that were consistant and reliable. It took way too long to find the right people, at least for me it felt like it. Too many dumb players, or unreliable on times. But once we did make a good static, then it went by within a month.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

You know what else is awesome? Discussing things like a normal human being, rather than being a jerk about things.

Which is what I did . . . and what you promptly ignored.

[Icemage]

Re: Has Tanaka Finally Lost His Mind?

Chains of Promathia missions were sometimes mind-numbingly annoying with level caps on, but for the most part the missions were challenging but not impossible if you had a full group with a decent variety of jobs available to customize your approach. Where people ran into problems with it was people that only had one job leveled and/or geared. The more compromises you had to make, the lower your chances of success became, particularly in the early missions like Promyvions (no white mage and no reraise scrolls? Too bad, so sad.). That said, the difficulty in finding a group who not only had the flexible job roster to tackle every mission and the dedication to show up and clear the (many) hoops you had to jump through did make for a rewarding finish. If you didn't have the right mix though, some missions become close to impossible even if you had good players, and definitely impossible if you had one or more group members with sub-par playing skills and/or cheapskates who never came prepared.

That said, since when is doing <stupendously awful and repetitive and random chance thing> a hundred times a new thing at FFXI endgame? These sorts of absurd grinding quests/trials have been around ever since Square-Enix introduced relic weaponry, and not much has changed since then.


Icemage