What if you could take it all back...

[Kailea]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

there where things to do, new places to explore, BCNMs to fight, now all it is is, get to level 30 (and most do it in a rush and poorly) then "warp" to level 90+

[cidbahamut]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

there where things to do

Be specific.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Be specific.

Missions

Khazam Keys

Airship Pass

Unlocking your subjob

Getting your AF1 gear

Trying to camp NMs for those epic items (at the time) that we all needed to have (Leaping Boots/Empress Hairpin/PCC)

Skilling up

Learning to play the job you chose properly <------------!!!!!!!!!!

[Mezlo]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Drusslinn your an idiot. Don't think you can make any assumptions about me and my personal life based upon my opinion of a video game.
I too am married, and play sparsely, I just enjoy the long road to a valued goal instead of the instant gratification that is abbysea.

[Armando]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

The party system has always been a bad idea in FFXI. For starters it wasn't flexible when it came to party layout or even party size. The first couple of times it was a good thing - you learn how to apply your job's abilities in a group setting and against tougher enemies. After that it's just a mindless repetition. Anything you can learn while partying could be learned through other scenarios. Imagine for a moment that mobs gave no EXP and instead you leveled by participating in Assault-like missions tailored to teach party mechanics. Same end result, although arguably better execution. But it's just not gonna happen because it's much more cost-effective to trick you into mindlessly participating in some artificial ritual that has no bearing to the rest of the game. More importantly, partying in no way prepares you for what should be the real events of the game. No one that just got to 75 knew shit about fighting HNMs. Imagine it's not FFXI any more, imagine you're playing FFVII. Would you think it's good game design if the second disc played by totally different rules from the first?

Secondly, the speed of leveling is irrelevant. You're gonna get an artificial high out of anything that requires a significant time investment and "effort" even if it's meaningless. That's how people get sucked up in Farmville. That's how the devs trick us into thinking keeping your weapons skilled up serves a purpose other than to waste your time. If you feel hollow getting to 95 in a week, congratulations! You just realized leveling wasn't that interesting to begin with.

Leveling isn't the point of FFXI. Anyone evaluating Abyssea needs to be judging other things: does the new FFXI prepare newbies appropriately for relevant events? Did Abyssea add an engaging story? Did it add interesting battlefields and bosses? Did it balance the jobs better? Those are legitimate concerns.

[cidbahamut]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Missions

Some of them, yes. I agree. Missions were fun stuff when I was a nooblet.

Khazam Keys

I don't think farming counts as content.

Airship Pass

Is a mission. No double-dipping sir.

Unlocking your subjob

My friend and I tried farming out magicked skulls back when I first started. We made little progress. Later I was trying to farm on my own and some high level player rolled through and just beat the bajesus out of some ghouls in Gusgen for me. I'm gonna call this one a wash.

Getting your AF1 gear

Again with the having higher level players help you. It's a chore you ask your linkshell to help you with. I'm sure it was a lot more awesome when folks would form roving bands in dungeons searching for coffers, but that is no longer the case.

Trying to camp NMs for those epic items (at the time) that we all needed to have (Leaping Boots/Empress Hairpin/PCC)

You could make a case for this. I don't agree with it, but there is a case to be made.

Skilling up

Ok now you're just pulling my leg.

Learning to play the job you chose properly <------------!!!!!!!!!!

I spent a good deal of time in a social shell where roughly half of them had Red Mage as their main job. They all did the old-school grindy 'lurn ur jorb while levuling' thing, and they were all pretty terrible. Nice people, but terrible players and the years they spent doing things in ye olde 3k/hr parties didn't really do much for them. There's definitely things you can learn from leveling in old school parties, but simply doing your leveling via old school parties isn't going to teach you anything.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly but weren't you asking Kailea for a list of "things to do"? How does anything I listed not qualify as an activity? My point is that there absolutely were things to do... plenty of them. Many are currently being skipped over by the current generation. I wasn't making a list of content-based activities... but merely a list of activities in general.

I challenge you to find me 3 players in game right now who has started playing within the last 2 years who have even 1 full set of AF1 gear.

For god sake, I saw a level 84 MNK yesterday with no subjob!

As for skillups, no... I'm not kidding you. All too often I've found myself in a party setting where I find out only too late that the 95WAR doesn't have his GA skill above 200.

Encouraging people to hit the fast-forward button has left everything that was good about "old" FFXI in the dust. If I shout for a party to go after Rostrum Pumps... I run the risk of getting a tell from someone asking me what Abyssea NM it drops from.

[Mezlo]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

As for skillups, no... I'm not kidding you. All too often I've found myself in a party setting where I find out only too late that the 95WAR doesn't have his GA skill above 200.

Not to worry Yyg... It's not going to be much longer where weapon and magic skillups will be linked to Abyssea partys, and you'll get to leech off of successful weapon and magic hits of everyone in your party! Then the argument will be made that the "old school" ways of skilling up were silly and unnecessary...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Armando, you're forgetting there were a ton of little things interspersed within the leveling as it used to be that made you look forward to getting back into leveling. Its cheap to just brush off those things as Cid has demonstrated he's totally willing to.

MMOs are social games. Leaping Boots, the scorpion harness and orthenus bow were just a few milestones, but it said so much about the player and thier dedication to thier role when they had them.

There has always been some kind of "fast track" in the game - be it the PLs of old or getting to 30 and leeching in Abyessa. Hell, you kind of could do it in ToA.

I know some people only care about endgame rewards and status, but the players I respected the most looked at the big picture, saw thier role as representative of others playing that role and wanted to present them well, not just be some douche with flashy high level gear.

We can really dismiss any game as a meaningless timesink, but putting the work in say more about a player to me than the guy that took the fast track.

I do wish SE would set up a few server presenting certain flavored o FFXI. A pre-RoZ server, for example, to play the game as it was since i never played it that way. A pre-WOTG server would also be nice.

[Armando]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Armando, you're forgetting there were a ton of little thing interspersed within the leveling as it used to be that made you look forward to getting back into leveling.

True, but I didn't want to make my post to lengthy because people skip over walls of text, and I certainly do think Kazhaam Keys and Sub Job item farming were horrible activities. I'm not saying it's bad for them to break up the flow of leveling with other stuff - but they needed to come up with better things to break the flow up with. Eco Warrior quests sucked, low level missions sucked...there was nothing worthwhile in the low levels. New players were basically told "Just wait 'til you get to 75, all the awesome shit you'll see!" while having to slowly work through those pathetic and tedious fetch quests to progress.

Then there was CoP, which was the one good thing they could've interspersed with leveling, but instead of removing all the bullshit between battlefields they just neutered it so it becomes another Sub Job Quest - get a 95 or two to steamroll it for you.

And while Leaping Boots and other NM items may be a social thing, I'm sorry if I don't look up to someone for his ability to camp the same spot for weeks. I'm not against status symbols but they have to mean something. NM camping is yet another horrible activity that could've been executed much better. In fact, NM camping is completely anti-social. EDIT: Example: I totally respected having a Rajas Ring. THAT was one hell of a status symbol.

[cidbahamut]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly but weren't you asking Kailea for a list of "things to do"? How does anything I listed not qualify as an activity? My point is that there absolutely were things to do... plenty of them. Many are currently being skipped over by the current generation. I wasn't making a list of content-based activities... but merely a list of activities in general.

I suppose 'content' is a pretty vague term and I didn't bother clarifying it. Point taken.

I challenge you to find me 3 players in game right now who has started playing within the last 2 years who have even 1 full set of AF1 gear.

Alas, I missed the cut-off by just a few months so I can't count myself. I don't think I even know 3 people who started playing within the last 2 years. But if you want I've got a fairly lengthy list of people who started within roughly the last two years and quit long before Abyssea or reaching 75.

Also: most AF gear is shit even for the level you get it at. Only reason I grabbed all my AF was sentimentality and looking pretty. Most of it really isn't worth the effort. Seriously, go look at the AF set for something like Dark Knight. I wouldn't expect anyone to bother getting that set unless they were doing it for completion's sake.

As for skillups, no... I'm not kidding you. All too often I've found myself in a party setting where I find out only too late that the 95WAR doesn't have his GA skill above 200.

Going afk in front of a fortalice does not count as something to do.

Encouraging people to hit the fast-forward button has left everything that was good about "old" FFXI in the dust.

I wouldn't say everything, but I do agree with the sentiment that a lot of the good stuff from old FFXI has fallen by the wayside recently. I want interesting characters again and not these comic book cut-outs we got with Abyssea.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Not to worry Yyg... It's not going to be much longer where weapon and magic skillups will be linked to Abyssea partys, and you'll get to leech off of successful weapon and magic hits of everyone in your party! Then the argument will be made that the "old school" ways of skilling up were silly and unnecessary...

It just doesn't sit well with me. 4 out of my 5 level 95 jobs are skilled properly. I took the time and effort to get them where they are before I would even allow them to be seen in public. Most people don't know I even have a PUP leveled and geared for 95. They don't know because I don't offer to use it. My H2H is gimped out at round 195, my Guard is garbage... and my Automaton Skills have been a nightmare. Until I consider it adequately skilled, it's not being taken out into the daylight... only for solo skillups.

I guess I have that mentality because of the way things used to be. No one used to laugh at you for having crap gear. Gear was hard to get. The people with the best stuff typically worked hard for it and they were the ones you looked up to and admired. I remember oogling over a SMN in full Relic Gear in Jeuno. That guy was so awesome. I wanted to be just like him.

Now... if that same wave of emotion came over me seeing someone in Jeuno... I could easily match his same gear in under a week (save for an Empy).

I don't understand the people who are saying "who the hell wants to bust their ass for weeks on end to do something". What it boils down to is that you had to work hard... and in turn... your hard work would pay off in the form of pride in yourself and prestige among your piers.

Distinguishing yourself from the crowd was what I liked. Now... everyone looks the same. Back in the day... a SMN could wear a little AF1... a little Relic... a little Austere and a little of the Nyzul gear. Maybe he had a Dalmatica... maybe a YYR. Now? Now every SMN is full-timing their AF3+1/+2 gear. What we're lacking in is individuality.

[Armando]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

It just doesn't sit well with me. 4 out of my 5 level 95 jobs are skilled properly.

The point isn't so much that taking the time to prepare your character is a bad thing, but that skilling up is a meaningless activity. I mean, yeah, it's bad when people are lazy and don't have their shit skilled up, but it's still just a meaningless grind. Your blue skill level says two things: 1) you care about your character, and 2) you can autoattack for a long time. The second is meaningless and the former will shine through in other areas of the game that are actually meaningful, like your equipment choices or your mission progress, or not playing like a retard. Abolishing skilling up would mean less time wasted for everyone. Lazy people will continue to be lazy in other areas of the game and you'll still be able to spot them easily.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Valid point. Perhaps we should also give everyone access to every job/weaponskill/piece of equipment while we're at it. Would this not be a means to the same end?

To hell with the test forum. Give everyone everything. How they make use of it all will separate the men from the boys.

[cidbahamut]

Re: What if you could take it all back...

Calm down Yyg. I don't think anyone here is saying we should all get a free ride on everything, or at least I'm not. It's just that ye olde FFXI and Abyssea represent two extremes and neither of them is particularly healthy for the game as a whole. There's stuff in ye olde FFXI that was outright dumb and should never have been included because it made the game worse. Likewise there's aspects of Abyssea that are utterly absurd and serve only to make the game more shallow and sap the satisfaction and sense of accomplishment from when you actually complete certain goals. The game shouldn't sit at either of those extremes, but there's a happy middle ground somewhere that draws upon the positive aspects of both ends of the spectrum that we should be searching for.