Game Balance and User Frustration

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.


You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Read what's being posted or get the fuck out of the thread and don't come back.

[Elwynn]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Also this...

I think it's all the JA juggling coupled with the job being less than straight forward what with all its weather effects...

What JA juggling?! RDM has a grand total of three abilities.

You want juggling, play SCH PUP or DNC.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Well, I got Goading Belt, so now I have capped Haste on RDM. More weird stuff for SCH, Cidbahamut!

Scholar

* Vision
Students in the art of war who employ stratagems to alter the tide of battle along with elemental magic to support their allies and annihilate their foes.

We wish for scholars to further their education in order to become absolute masters of their art, and the latter stages of their research will produce skills comparable to those of a white or black mage whose spells may take time to cast, but compensate with both the bliss and destruction they beget.

* Example Adjustments
o Adding spells which gradually reduce an enemy's TP or status enhancements.
o Adding a spell that can be cast while under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

Uh huh....

Some readers not paying attention to the discussion at hand aside...

Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth, but at what point does RDM melee reach the level of "acceptable"? Or any of a RDM's roles really?

...

I don't think anything will allow RDM to melee unless the job is completely redesigned such that meleeing is necessary to accomplish the things the job is invited for. That's a damned tall order.

...


I think for rdm to get accepted as melee, melee would have to be given some new utility other than just damage.

You know, I really don't think RDM needs anything else and, after the recent announcement of the direction they're going to take the job in, we do have other things to look forward. Then again, they could always muck it up again, making some HNMs outright immune to debuffs they don't want people landing on them. Because Paralyze II, comparatively, is oh so overpowered for its ability to make mobs occasionally miss attack rounds or spells compared to a certain spell in the game that makes single target attacks unquestionably miss you. Strange fact: Merciless Matriarch atma and nearly 280 MND and somehow I still can't land Paralyze II on Rani...weird.

Still, I do have a problem with the greater playerbase perception as far as the melee end is concerned. And that is that you can't even really discuss it without a suspicious eye on you. If you discuss gear availability, you include disclaimers like:
- Oh, but I would never do this on a mob that matters.
- Oh, but I just think it's fun to outdamage pickup meleers.
- Oh, but I know it's not the best, but I still enjoy it.
Lest you not be taken seriously on your merits as a player.

You could ask, "What kind of gear can RDM use to cap gear Haste?" And somebody else will read into it: "OMG I WANNA MELEEZ BIG NASTY WYRM AND BE TOTALLY AWESOME LIKE MELEE MAGE SEPHIROTH IN VII!" I guess people have varying degrees on what mobs matter and what mobs don't, but it is an unfortunate kneejerk reaction that some people have that, if you show up as RDM/NIN, you're inevitably going to muck things up as opposed to killing mobs faster. Personally, I do have a murky cut off point I can't specify. Surely, I'd never get close to something like Alfard (despite the hyperbolic sensationalism that would lead some people to think I want to), but I really think people would give somewhat lesser NMs like Bukhis or Ovni far too much credit.

That's really why I can't discuss this on places like Alla or the Official Forums in any great detail because I'll inevitably get associated with people who seriously think the job can match toe to toe with other more dedicated jobs. Simply admitting that I like to do it, and what I can do it against, and how to maximize it if I want to? I'd like to able to talk about those things without having attach an apology to it every time. RDM is my favorite job. It's the job I like to play the most. It's the job I like to get gear for the most. It's the job I like to talk about the most. Surely I can talk about this particular aspect of it without bearing the mark of n00b?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

You could ask, "What kind of gear can RDM use to cap gear Haste?" And somebody else will read into it: "OMG I WANNA MELEEZ BIG NASTY WYRM AND BE TOTALLY AWESOME LIKE MELEE MAGE SEPHIROTH IN VII!"

See, I would just as soon look at that and go "Oh, someone's putting together a recast build for Utsusemi and stuff". You know, unless there was some context.

But yes, I know what you mean about mentioning RDM melee and the knee jerk reactions. I think it's fueled in part by the participants on both sides being opposite ends of the spectrum in more than just that one area of the game.

There seem to be very few people who have a solid understanding of the game mechanics, know what not to melee on (read: OMGWTFIRDEADAVSTYLEHNMs), and are humble enough to hold a simple and civil conversation about it. More often what you get are scrubs wanting to swing their sword butting heads with more experienced veterans who want to skin them alive for sucking so bad at the job in general(both mage and melee aspects). But then there's always that one guy who's on the melee side who's also a veteran and for the most part knows his stuff, but is also totally stubborn and easily offended by anything other than total acceptance of his love of swords, and it all just degenerates into a clusterfuck from there.

In case that was at all ambiguous, I am not referring to anyone who frequents this forum, as we seem to all be capable of holding civil discussions whenever the topic comes up.

On the Go Away Melee side of the fence I think there is a deep seated fear that the constant yammering for more melee stuff will catch root with the devs and that RDM's mage side will be neglected as SE shifts focus to melee, while the melee side has been so thoroughly malnourished over the years that it simply ends with RDM becoming more of a lolJob than all the others put together. Banished to the mog house for all eternity simply because some people wanted to swing their swords and couldn't take the time to see what Red Mage's real strengths were.

I've spent time on both sides of the issue but I've settled into the mage camp. Nothing wrong with melee, I just don't want to see the job destroyed by the loud people who want to swing their swords in full teal gear.

The Red Mage of FFXI is not the Red Mage of other FF games, and it drives me up a wall how many people refuse to come to terms with it.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Well, that is the kind of the problem, to assume that I'm not on the mage side of things just because I like to talk about melee. Like I said, when I go to events, and indeed a lot of helping out LS members, I do backline RDM most of the time. There are few times when I will show up with weapons and melee gear though and I do appreciate that, for the most part, people trust that I know what I'm doing. Makes for an interesting question for you to answer though. In your view, am I backline RDM because I am backline in events? Or am I a frontline RDM because I go to things in-between meleeing?

I do think there are honest, legitimate answers to any given question about RDM. And that includes questions about what kind of options RDM has when it comes to meleeing. Like earlier in the thread where we were discussing how the job has and hasn't been modernized to meet new standards in FFXI. No grandstanding like meleetards on the Official forum. Just a legitimate list of what I think is relevant gear.

We're currently doing Einherjar because we're anticipating updates to gear that can be gotten from it. On the side, I asked if Iota Ring is still a worthwhile ring. The answer to that question is either "Yes" or "No". What I wasn't expecting was a douchie response from one guy who said, "Level a different job", which is kind of what prompted me to suddenly speak up about this.

I see where you were coming from in your post, but in such ways, I do not consider the far opposite side of the spectrum to be somehow more beneficial to the game. Yes, there is a brutal answer to what the most efficient way to play this game is. The douchie guy I mentioned above is how I see such a player. One of our members asked in LS, "What's good to merit for BST?" The answer to that question is not, and should never have been, "BST is a waste of time. Don't level it." If the most extreme of efficiency advocates had their way, this game would be nothing but Ninjas and mages. I'm sure you've already figured out where I'm coming from, especially given my past rantings about the subject in the Pet Peeves thread. But I truly do blame the pure efficiency advocates for my inability to join groups as a BST years ago.

Which is to say don't get me wrong. I've seen the type of players you describe. I watched a PUG fighting Melo Melo and, among them, was a RDM/WHM with a Sword and full Teal gear trying to hit it. Miraculously, they didn't wipe. They were, however, fighting it for about an hour. Those kinds of people can't be reasoned with. But if somebody were to ever ask me what they could do to make their melee on RDM better, I don't think the right answer would be, "Don't bother."

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

PLD gets nothing, because PLD is not wanted by the players
RDM gets only mage stat related gear, because RDM is to be a caster
NIN has been the player favorite for so long, they get basically anything they need to be able to solo anything.
The DD jobs aren't any different from one another, so they don't really get anything different. They're all interchangeable, unless you need to proc red, in which case they're all equally useless compared to a WAR.

What's hilarious is how accurate this ended up being to the Manifesto.

And by hilarious I mean sad.

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think we're all just sick and tired of SE half-assing various aspects of all the jobs. In RDM's case, the melee side.

Only the really retarded players (i.e. most of the official forum goers good LORD some of 'em are total mouth breathers) are clamoring for RDM to become a tier 1 melee job.

The rest of us, would simply like SE to level the playing field and put it's melee capability on par with BLU, which is where it really ought to have been from day 1. Is it really asking so much to make RDM melee a viable (but not optimal) option, instead of a last measure of desperation?

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Alright, so since we've essentially turned this into a thread about meleeing on RDM, I've got gear questions. Somebody asked in LS what is the best WS back piece for Evisceration these days. Somebody answered Vigilance Mantle +1. But that is from the point for a THF or DNC, so now I'm wondering how much Accuracy I should keep or can I risk going for other attributes. So far, gear sets...and questions about what gear I should use go something like this, along with the relevant attributes.

Main: Twilight Knife
Sub: Khanda +2 (OAT 2-4) or Chimeric Fleuret. I basically switch depending on whether I'm fighting common mobs or NMs.
Ammo: Demonry Core

TP Set

Head: Zelus Tiara Haste+8%
Neck: Ziel Charm Acc+12
Ear1: Hollow Earring DEX+2 Acc+2 Enspell Damage+3
Ear2: Moonshade Earring Acc+4 Regain+1 (sorry, no Suppanomimi. I picked Beastly Earring. I was young, and naive, and didn't have /NIN leveled back then...)
Body: Goliard Saio Haste+4%
Hands: Dusk Gloves Haste+3% Att+5
Ring1: Jupiter's Ring DEX+6 or Ulthalam's Ring Acc+4 Att+4 or Iota Ring Acc+3 DEX+3?
Ring2: Rajas Ring STR+5 DEX+5
Back: Atheling Mantle Att+20 DA+3
Waist: Goading Belt Haste+5% Store TP+5
Legs: Calmecac Trousers Haste+3% DA+2 Triple Attack+2 Acc-8
Feet: Dusk Ledelsens+1 Haste+3% Att+3

Evisceration Set

Head: Issen Hachimaki Acc+12 Dagger+5 Conserve TP+5
Neck: Soil Gorget fTP multiplier+0.1 +Acc
Ear1: Hollow Earring DEX+2 Acc+2
Ear2: Brutal Earring DA+5 Store TP+1
Body: Antares Harness DEX+8 Acc+8
Hands: Goliard Cuffs Acc+4 Att+4 or Warlock's Gloves+1 DEX+6?
Ring1: Iota Ring Acc+3 DEX+3 or Jupiter's Ring DEX+6?
Ring2: Rajas Ring STR+5 DEX+5
Back: Atheling Mantle Att+20 DA+3 or Vigilance Mantle+1 STR+5 DEX+5 or Cuchulain's Mantle Acc+5 STR+4 DEX+4?
Waist: Soil Belt fTP multipler +0.1 +Acc (are the WS belts and necks worth it for crit WSs? I think maybe Anguinus Belt Acc+15 Att+15 DA+1 would be better...if I could get it)
Legs: Tumbler Trunks DEX+5 Att+18
Feet: Rager Ledelsens Acc+10 Att+12

I'm guessing all my questions will amount to "It depends" because that's just how it is in this game. But in the general sense, those are my current issues with what I'm considering using.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Somebody set up the Armando Signal.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

IANA (I Am Not Armando), but . . .

Your ring choice in your TP set depends whether you have an even or odd number of DEX without that ring. If it's even, Ulthalam's (though I personally would rather have chosen Balrahn's, but whatever); otherwise, Iota.

Your WS set choices are a lot less clean-cut, especially since Evisceration is a critical weapon-skill, and we don't know what your basic critical hit rate would be with it, or how relatively effective it would be to boost it, for that matter (since that depends on a variety of things, such as critical damage bonuses as well as your pDIF depending on what you're fighting). My judgement call, however, would be to keep Goliard for the Hands (one more effective point of Accuracy, and some Attack to make up for the loss in the DEX mod), maybe Jupiter's Ring over Iota's (double the DEX mod, only 1-2 less points of effective Accuracy), Cuchulain's Mantle for the Back, and Anguinus Belt for the Waist. Of course, a lot of this is assuming that you're not capping Accuracy on whatever you're Eviscerating.

ADD: Concerning Iota Ring vs. Jupiter's Ring (vs. Ulthalam's), Armando's told me that you're probably better off simply using Sniper's or some similar higher-Accuracy Ring in that slot.

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Did Evisceration yesterday for 3722 damage...granted, it was a colibri type mob and it was probably a Quadruple Attack proc...but bah, let me gloat about something.

Been getting a lot of advice from this guy who is a THF. Next time there's a Cuchulain's Belt on the AH, I'm gonna be all over it.

If I had Chant du Cygne, I'm convinced I would probably wreck stuff. The question is how to muster the drive to go get it...

In case that was at all ambiguous, I am not referring to anyone who frequents this forum, as we seem to all be capable of holding civil discussions whenever the topic comes up.

I just spent the last hour going through the Official Forums because I wanted to see if there was any discussion I could take part in. There were a few things I almost wanted to make comments on, but in the end, it didn't seem like it was worth my time.

Honestly, if you ask me, I'm beginning to think the job is probably where it ought to be at the moment. But if I had to complain about anything, it's that the gear availability took a dive after Abyssea. Really, why can't the job use Loki's Kaftan? Even if the RDM of FFXI is not the RDM of former FF games, the one thing that RDM did have going for it prior to Abyssea was gear availability.

I'm saying this because, the RDM forum in particular, seems to have this thing going on in it where the real issue is that people just don't want to have to get gear. Hyrist, in particular, always struck me as a reasonable individual who seemed like he had ideas and knew what he was talking about. This was back when I was a poster on Allakhazam. In the end, he turns out to be nothing more than a lazy fraud who apparently couldn't gear himself to save his life. A poster on another forum described him:

"Last time I saw him on Midgard before he (mercifully) buggered off - he was running around campaign in the nice combo of AF1 hat and is it jaridah body as his awesome melee set."

I don't think anybody on that particular forum realizes that gear requirements were always much more harsh on damage dealers in order to perform.

And now there's this:

Person who challenged me at the parse told me not to bother till I had a 'decent' WS set, bro. And 'decent' in their definition is 90% best gear pieces available to their job. So that's gonna be a while, especially when I play maybe 2-3 hours a day max and I've more important pieces/jobs to work on.

You wanna help that parse come along quicker, volunteer to help me get the gear. Otherwise, you're just as much at the mercy of my playability as I am.

Whining about being unable to get gear never got anybody anywhere in this game.

Whatever though, I believe I was always somebody who at least tried. I slaved for weeks to do Assaults to get Pahluwan gear. I got the Dusk Haste pieces when they were still expensive crap. I made sure to ask questions and got stuff like Foragers Mantle to hold myself to the same standards as other meleers. I steamrolled through CoP because I really wanted Rajas Ring and I really, really, REALLY wanted Hollow Earring. I did a lot of Campaign, but I never wanted to be seen as that guy who didn't gear swap.

So if there was any disappoint on my part, it was that there was so little new gear to shoot for when there used to be so much. They can push the job in the direction of an Enhancer/Enfeebler. But to the end of lowering gear availability, I honestly do not approve.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I'm saying this because, the RDM forum in particular, seems to have this thing going on in it where the real issue is that people just don't want to have to get gear. Hyrist, in particular, always struck me as a reasonable individual who seemed like he had ideas and knew what he was talking about. This was back when I was a poster on Allakhazam. In the end, he turns out to be nothing more than a lazy fraud who apparently couldn't gear himself to save his life.

This was a pretty unpleasant realization.

Back when I was RDM nooblet I spent a lot of time reading through what Hyrist posted on Alla. I gathered that RDM melee was a bit taboo but Hyrist always appeared very level-headed and seemed to know what he was doing. It gave me hope and he even gave me a few pointers for mid level melee gearing.

Fast forward about two years and we get the official forums and everyone seems to have gone over the top. It's like the focus has shifted from pushing RDM's melee performance as far as it can go to trying to poke HNMs for the sheer audacity of it.

Then again, maybe I'm just becoming jaded because I've hit the level cap and seen how powerful RDM's mage side is and have come to thoroughly enjoy it.

Either way, whining about not wanting to get gear is pretty dumb when that's the primary factor when it comes to performance in anything, but especially meleeing.

I tried nuking in a dinner jacket and some elemental staves once. It was terrible. Why would meleeing be any different?

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

If I had Chant du Cygne, I'm convinced I would probably wreck stuff. The question is how to muster the drive to go get it...

Just do it. I strongly recommend going for Almace over the WoE version, as I find those weapons to be a waste of time for all that NM camping you have to do - but that's still an option if you want Chant bad enough. The difference just having some of these WS makes is ridiculous - the point where even the WoE version is comparable or better than owning a Relic weapon.


Briareus is actually pretty damned easy and can be solo'd by some jobs without much difficulty. Sobek is harder, but with all the AF3 he drops it's not hard to get people to tag along. The hard part is getting his KI's which will likely come down to cleaving crabs.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

He was my hero.

"Disappointing" does not sufficiently describe watching him fall like that.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Taking the rdm whining in another direction, I'd be happy if we got to tank again. Yeah, it was pretty wrong that we could do as well as pld and nin with less support, but it's not like we were brokenly invincible at it or anything. Imo they could have taken us down a notch in that role without completely destroying it. Again, was having three viable tank jobs so bad for the game?