New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Another prediction for when S-E announces the next Mog Bonanza in a few weeks:

- cidbahamut will deride S-E for not finding a more exciting system than holding on to ten marbles for a month.
- Grizzlebeard will attempt a damnation of S-E as a whole for depriving each player of 20k.
- And Malacite will fail to understand why so many people fail to win it.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

So you'd be COMPLETELY ok with ToM if we just got some filler bullshit cutscene and plot when we first start it? That's your main complaint? You are why we can't have nice things.

Heaven forbid SE try and, you know, make a game.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Heaven forbid SE try and, you know, make a game.

A bullshit cutscene is far from what makes it a game, you can't be this stupid. I'd rather have, you know, progressing content which ToM is. This isn't even the first example of there being no cutscene and just some flavor text when getting a reward, as Itazura pointed out. Find something real to bitch about.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Infantile mewling

You seem to be of the opinion I still play FFXI. Unlike others I chose to show my disdain at the current design direction by cancelling my subscription rather than just moaning about it and then getting back in line like a good performing monkey. That's not to say I wouldn't play it again if things changed and I'm not quite giving up yet as I have more than a little time invested in the game. That said, I'll say what I choose on the subject regardless of how much it upsets you or some of the other precious buttercups who post on these forums.

Oh, and yeah, what was wrong with the previous system in place as I stated in response to your question? Are you, and some of the other vocal people in this thread, relieved they don't have to work with others to gain their rewards now or is the welfare nature of the new weapons just too attractive compared to the older and harder route?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Are you, and some of the other vocal people in this thread, relieved they don't have to work with others to gain their rewards now or is the welfare nature of the new weapons just too attractive compared to the older and harder route?

Umm... For the vast majority of the people who want the Empryean weapons, they'd really have no choice but to work with others for at least some of the trials. (Not all of us can quad box, or even have access to four superbly geared characters with all the right jobs, you know.)

"No need for other people" isn't really a legitimate criticism.

Which system were you referring to as the shiny example of far better design "prior to the implementation of ToM" anyway? If you mean relic weapons, which one did you get, and what was it about that process which was so much better?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Umm... For the vast majority of the people who want the Empryean weapons

I probably should have been clearer but as far as I'm concerned we're talking about all of the ToM additions excluding Empyrean weapons. The slog to get them, while remaining tedious and transparently lazy requires the killing of party/alliance NMs and are equivalent to Relic/Mythic difficulty in obtaining if not harder when you consider the amount of time required.

Which system were you referring to as the shiny example of far better design "prior to the implementation of ToM" anyway? If you mean relic weapons, which one did you get, and what was it about that process which was so much better?

No, I was referring to items and weapons dropping off party/alliance monsters and BCNM/KSNM/ISNMs etc. The only thing that needed tweaking was the rate at which they dropped but S-E are past masters at prolonging the life of their content through disgusting drop rates. Now they're prolonging it through "Kill X of Y during Z weather conditions" or equally tedious trials such as the ones Nin/Blm/Drg face when trying to obtain their AF3+1 via quests.

[Karinya]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

While that's a valid complaint, do remember that before ToM, we already had "Get x for shiny y" style quest/mini-quests/'vendors' like:

- Allied Notes items
- Therion Ichor items
- Assault Points items
- Imperial Standing items
- Jailer of Love (drops traded to NPC for real rewards)
- ENM (drops traded to NPC for shinies for at least some of them?)
- Abjuration
- Guild points items
- Conquest Point items
- Weapon Latent unlock (from KSNM, WS trials, Nyzul Isle)

You left out limbus boss armors. "Trade me Omega's heart for shinies" seems more epic than "Kill 300 bunnies for shinies" because it's Omega and not bunnies, but the basic concept is the same and there's really no explanation of why the Empire wants Omega's heart at all, let alone wants another one from every single player after they already got the first one, or where they got all this awesome gear in the first place and why they don't give it to people who only, say, save the life of the Empress.

But even that's minor compared to story problems like who is making all the replacement Omegas after the first one is destroyed and cut up for parts 100,000 times.

Gameplay takes priority over story, get used to it or go read a book.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

You seem to be of the opinion I still play FFXI.

Please quote anywhere where I implied that. In fact, that you don't only furthers my original point of, why are you even here if you do nothing but bitch and moan?

The only thing that needed tweaking was the rate at which they dropped but S-E are past masters at prolonging the life of their content through disgusting drop rates. Now they're prolonging it through "Kill X of Y during Z weather conditions"

Given that this makes it so that you are no longer the plaything of the random number god, then by your own terms, how is this not a strict upgrade?

[Clever Ninja]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

The only thing that needed tweaking was the rate at which they dropped but S-E are past masters at prolonging the life of their content through disgusting drop rates.

All that upping the droprate would do is increase the rate at which people cap on gear from those mobs/events, and thus make them useless.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

that you don't only furthers my original point of, why are you even here if you do nothing but bitch and moan?

Because I enjoy it and it seems to upset you which is an added bonus.

All that upping the droprate would do is increase the rate at which people cap on gear from those mobs/events, and thus make them useless.

Yeah, this is the problem with releasing tiny amounts of content and prolonging its life through terrible droprates or whack-a-mole Magian Trials. Look at the amount on content Everquest had released in the first seven years compared to FFXI and it'll give you an indication as to why S-E has always favoured blatant timesinks in the forms of zone design, travel time, RNG on drops, Japanese midnight restrictions, early claim mechanics, zone lockout timers, etc.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Or do you prefer your way of things where 15 people have to sacrifice time and energy for 1 person? It might not drop by the way. Hell, you might not even get a chance to fight the NM, just stare at is as some other people kill it. Or maybe people will be just so disinterested in getting your item that you can't even muster the necessary group to even try.

The only way that was ever even considered fun required a few things:

- FFXI being your only source of gaming entertainment
- Being chronically unemployed or failing college/high school
- No social contacts with real, actual people

And in exchange, you get the "rush" of claiming a mob that only might drop something useful for one person who might be devoted to your group, but could just as easily quit the second they got a Ridil or some other hotly-desired virtual doo-dad.

Or you might not claim it and up to of three hours of your day was flushed straight down the toilet.

The really sad thing was that there were people that actually liked this system, usually because of the assortment of drama that came with it.

I never found it fun. It was pure drivel and I don't care how much of a "team player" I wasn't being because I quickly left LSes that engaged in that HNM bullshit.

I am of the opinion the fewer people that are required in a multiplayer game, the better. All this stuff that needs more than 12 people to be fun can shove off.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

I probably should have been clearer but as far as I'm concerned we're talking about all of the ToM additions excluding Empyrean weapons. The slog to get them, while remaining tedious and transparently lazy requires the killing of party/alliance NMs and are equivalent to Relic/Mythic difficulty in obtaining if not harder when you consider the amount of time required.

Huh? I don't think ToM weapons can be compared to Relic/Mythic in terms of effort needed--esp. if you're not counting Empryrean ones.

No, I was referring to items and weapons dropping off party/alliance monsters and BCNM/KSNM/ISNMs etc.

How's the WS point system for unlocking latents for KSNM weapons any better than the ToM system? Or, to you your terminology, any less "whack-a-mole"?

Name a few high end items you think that came from particularly good systems.

The only thing that needed tweaking was the rate at which they dropped but S-E are past masters at prolonging the life of their content through disgusting drop rates.

Effort spent makes item more valuable--makes the achievement more special for the player.

Fundamentally, "Good items takes effort, great items takes spectacular effort" is a good design rule. Low drop rate is just one tool to create that sense of effort made, much like large number of monsters needed to be killed for ToM, and much like the barrier to entry for battlefield fights (like KS99, Bahamut, etc.), grind needed to farm pop sets, rarely seen super NMs (HMN, in short), and difficulty of fights.

They are different modes to create that sense of effort (and/or feeling of having lucked out), but, again, they all work toward the same goal. There's nothing particularly special about any of them--they are just tools.

Now they're prolonging it through "Kill X of Y during Z weather conditions" or equally tedious trials such as the ones Nin/Blm/Drg face when trying to obtain their AF3+1 via quests.

You can get Empryean armor upgrade items from NMs. Some are popped, some are timed, but you do not need to touch more than one quest (the Magian one) to get the +1--which is basically turning in the seals you've farmed from NMs (and/or gathered from quests).

That is to say, it is similar to Abjuration, except it's needing 8 paper that has better drop rate instead of 1 paper that has low drop rate for each gear, and no crafter is involved.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Huh? I don't think ToM weapons can be compared to Relic/Mythic in terms of effort needed--esp. if you're not counting Empryrean ones.

It seems you either have problems understanding posts in clear English or you choose to play dumb in order to twist their meanings. Looking at comment about the AF3+1 where I clearly stated quests as opposed to mob drops for acquisition I'm inclined to go with the latter. In this instance, I stated I'd exclude Empyrean as they're of similar (if not greater) difficulty in obtaining as Relic/Mythics. The point was, you managed to only focus on Empyreans in your previous post and conveniently ignore all the rest of the ToM weapons as it suited your argument.

As for the rest of your comments, I really can't be bothered getting in to a multi-page quote fest with you especially when you resort to obvious misinformation to "win" a discussion. Regardless of what I post, your views and that of other people on here won't change and I'm perfectly fine with that as I don't care one way or another what your opinions are on the subject.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Yeah, this is the problem with releasing tiny amounts of content and prolonging its life through terrible droprates or whack-a-mole Magian Trials. Look at the amount on content Everquest had released in the first seven years compared to FFXI and it'll give you an indication as to why S-E has always favoured blatant timesinks in the forms of zone design, travel time, RNG on drops, Japanese midnight restrictions, early claim mechanics, zone lockout timers, etc.

Which is less a problem with ToM and more a problem with SE as a whole, which I won't argue. Still, ToM is probably in my opinion one of the better things they've added for the simple fact that it's a timesink but it's one that actually rewards you with something, unlike 50% of the other content where you can stand around camping something or doing a BCNM/KSNM or dynamis/salvage/nyzul for gear and walk away with no real treasure due to drop rates. A definite reward for time invested compared to that is amazing.

I probably should have been clearer but as far as I'm concerned we're talking about all of the ToM additions excluding Empyrean weapons. The slog to get them, while remaining tedious and transparently lazy requires the killing of party/alliance NMs and are equivalent to Relic/Mythic difficulty in obtaining if not harder when you consider the amount of time required.

I don't really see how you can compare the difficulty of getting a Relic or Mythic to even the regular ToM weapons, much less the Empyrean ones. To get a Relic, you need to do an event with a 3day lockout for currency and various upgrade pieces. To get a mythic, lots of salvage for alexandrite + the 4 chariot bosses as well as having to redo Assaults, Nyzul and Ein for the buyable items, etc. You can argue that you can simple buy the respective currency for each one but that's time being spent unless someone handed you several mil in gil before they quit.

Normal ToM weapons require either camping NM's, killing several mobs whenever, or killing mobs during a certain weather or day. Something anyone 75+ can do solo even for the most part until you hit the VNM phase of the NM paths. A hell of a lot more accessible for the majority of the population who want something that's less of a time investment than a relic/mythic/empyrean but still an upgrade over whatever else they could get.

And Empyreans are much easier to get than a relic/mythic, even for the ones that require you to kill NMs in Abyssea La Thiene(which is the longest of the 3 zones when it comes to being able to pop and kill the respective NMs). If you can get some friends together for dynamis, you can get them together for efficient lowman farming in abyssea and finish the weapon relatively quick.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

ToM seems in-line with Assault, Campaign Ops and Limbus in that "You keep working at it and you'll get what you want."

This as opposed to "Camp this NM/Farm this zone and maybe you'll get something cool. Probably not, but maybe."

The content seems to get more and more progressive, masochists would say "easy" but I'd call it progressive. Far better than doing HNMs or Dynamis or even Einherjar. I don't think reward should come easy, but at the same time, I'd prefer it not be totally arbitrary, especially if I'm helping someone else get something.

If you want to fuss about time involved, it begs the question why you playing a timesink in the first place. Don't give me that "story" crap, either, because MMORPGs cannot thrive on story alone, these games live and die on content. FFXI has more story and cinematics than most MMOs could shake a stick at, but even so that only takes you so far. I have a feeling Bioware is going to learn that lesson hard with The Old Republic, but then, developers always underestimate players on their first MMO and sometimes even the second time around. We have a more voracious appetite than they seem to understand.