New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

[cidbahamut]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

BG is unpleasant. Finding info there is like trying up pick up rice grains from a field of sand--with tar all over the place.

That's what the random question sticky is for. I wouldn't even bother with the rest of the forum if you know what you're trying to find. Even if you don't know what you're trying to find I wouldn't bother with the rest of the forum, it's such a mess.

I don't get the complaints about ToM weapons, with regard to the grind without 'story'.

You can disguise it, sugar coat it, whatever, but that's how games like this work.

They're not disguising it at all is the crux of the problem.

Think of old content, say, Ridill. What story is there? Camping for an Fafnir pop every 24 hrs, hoping you can out claim botters, and then cross your fingers hoping it'd drop and you'd win the lot. That's not really less grind--that's just more unpredictable grind.

Oh hey, an event in which you join forces with a bunch of other people to take down the big bad dragon who is more than happy to murder every last one of you if you screw up. Sure the droprate's an issue and 24 hour pop windows are dumb, but the core concept of how the loot is acquired is solid. Get large group of friends -> go slay difficult boss monster who has an entire zone devoted to it as the battlefield.

About the same for Kirin's drops, except it's even more grind to build the pop set. The 'story' is basically the short text blurbs on when Shijin and Kirin pop and when they are KO'ed. That's pretty thin, too.

Oh yes, and we'll conveniently ignore the fact that there's an entire series of story-based missions required to unlock that playground. Again, stomping on sky gods is an event at its core. The only complaint I can hear is "shitty drop rates".

Salvage's story is basically one NPC telling you you can get into neat old ruins for loot, while another telling you he'd reward you if you bring him funny armor. And, the terrible drop rate for some of the pieces. Now, that is grind.

Admittedly I'm not exactly familiar with Salvage so I cannot refute this. But I do hear "drop rates" being the complaint again.

The issue I keep hearing you guys harp on is how terrible all this old stuff was because of the drop rates. Not because the content itself was unsatisfying or mindless, but because SE has a random number generator fetish. I'd wager that the old style content would be just as if not more appealing than Magians if you could build progress towards it in a similar manner via some system other than praying to the Random Number Generator. Likewise Trial Weapons would be considered equally abusive if you had to deal with a similarly harsh R.N.G. determining whether or not any given kill counted towards your trial.

You're never going to be free of the grind in an MMORPG, it's the nature of the beast. What I shouldn't have to put up with is disgustingly lazy design that doesn't even bother trying to disguise it. I'd much prefer to get a group of friends together to go stomp on a dragon or clear out a dungeon for my gear, instead of being tasked with the mundane and unsatisfying chore of murdering 347 bunnies.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Why are you even still visiting these forums?

Because I can and your opinion means fuck all to me. Now, moving on.

Furthermore, I'd love to hear a detailed description of the system you'd rather have in place over ToM.

The system that was in place for six years prior to the implementation of ToM was perfectly fine. I'll take a decent Risk vs Reward system over something designed by monkeys for monkeys any day of the week. Fact is, S-E are safe in the knowledge the majority of people left still playing FFXI will eat up any crap they're fed now regardless of how bad it tastes. Everyone pisses and moans then dutifully gets in line and performs whatever new and mundane task S-E thinks up for you.

[Malacite]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

When there is no other alternative for getting weapons past 75, you will do it, or you'll quit. People aren't doing trials because they're super exciting.

Pretty much this... ToM is a lot more grindy than it needs to be, but the alternatives are just so mind bogglingly inferior. Shit even getting an Empyrean Weapon to 85 from start to finish can be done within a month or two with as little as 3 people, provided you've got the right jobs & Atma for the abyssea parts. Well, okay you can 3-man Masamune up to Carabosse, I don't think you can 3-man the last NM but that's still freaking impressive.

Compared to grinding dynamis over & over at 500k a run or spamming virtually all of ToAU's endgame, and then having to get killshots on thousands of enemies for a weapon that doesn't even compare and yeah, it's a no-brainer. The only exceptions are some of the support mythics that offer unique buffs (Kenkonken, Yagrush, etc) those are still worth it but for any job that plans to do any form of damage, including COR (but except PUP because the overload suppression on Ken is incredibly OP), go with the Empyrean.


I'm not enjoying hunting down all these NMs one f'ing bit, and AF3 is even more of a pain in the ass but when I look at my other options it's honestly not even a choice but a matter of acceptance.


Also I should point out that the Empyrean WS seem to function similarly to the Relic WS in that they are quite attack dependent, however at least in Abyssea, this is seriously a non-issue with Atma. I've personally seen Tachi Fudo whack mobs for over 4k damage, with the average, with the average being around 3000~3600 (it's ranged between 2.2 and 4.4k I believe, depending wildy on attack I think as for some reason DA procs don't boost the damage quite the way they do with Y/G/K). WAR & MNK made out like bandits with theirs though, both of them consistently hitting 3600+, WAR over 6000.... Shit even NIN hit the jackpot with Blade: Hi doing 4k+ damage as well.

The reason Fudo isn't quite as nice as the other 3 however is because it's not a crit WS, and crit WS reign supreme inside Abyssea thanks to Razed Ruins + Voracious Violet combo. I'm just waiting to see how much more broken they will become @ lv 90+. Why anyone would even bother starting or even finishing a relic at this point other than Aegis or Gjallar is beyond me. Not when it takes so much time and gil, and then arguably even more time than it took to complete the stupid thing to upgrade it doing literally thousands of killshots with the unique WS. Honestly if you think ToM is bad for the casual stuff, just look at the Relic trials...


I for one, don't mind it one bit though. Like Ray said, Relics have had their time in the sun. They've been the best weapons since 2004, it's now almost 2011. I think we can have a new set of top-tier weapons now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Fact is, S-E are safe in the knowledge the majority of people left still playing FFXI will eat up any crap they're fed now regardless of how bad it tastes. Everyone pisses and moans then dutifully gets in line and performs whatever new and mundane task S-E thinks up for you.

Which includes you, apparently, and supports why YM asked what he did in the first place:

Why are you here and/or why are you still playing something you quite clearly piss and moan about all the time. Seriously, other people complain, but you take it to a vendetta kind of level that even Malacite would back away from.

And that's because he could articulate why he still enjoys playing FFXI. I've seen him do it and I don't believe you can say one thing you like. Because even people like Aeni and Malacite, people who could find something to discuss as a positive becaome SE"s #1 Apple Polisher in your book the second they say something nice about what SE does.

We've only seen you do it. Hell, you took your little crusade to the FFXIV New User forum the other day and trolled up TGM's work real good.

I just don't see how someone can devote so much energy into hating a video game, I don't care who made it. Just quit and move on, its not good for you. You couldn't even really pinpoint the issue YM asked about, relying on people like Mhurron and Malacite to make the point for you. You know, people that take time to learn things about the game rather than just get angry at it and spit.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

They're not disguising it at all is the crux of the problem.

I thought the grind was the problem? By the way, there's a bit of story associated with ToM, and it was given to the players when they first talk to the Moogle, IIRC. Not much of one, but it's there.

Oh hey, an event in which you join forces with a bunch of other people to take down the big bad dragon who is more than happy to murder every last one of you if you screw up.

Try for Empryean weapons, then. While some people can four-box the higher end NMs needed or do them in small groups, most of us probably can't, and would need a sizable group's help.

Oh yes, and we'll conveniently ignore the fact that there's an entire series of story-based missions required to unlock that playground.

The Zilart storyline is pretty ho-hum, to be honest. You'd make your points better referencing Limbus or Salvage instead. Still, sky Shijin, Limbus Proto-Omega/Ultima, and Salvage bosses and sub-bosses are pretty far removed from the the main story lines they are associated with. They were designed to be done over and over again, so there are basically no storyline CS to get in the way.

Admittedly I'm not exactly familiar with Salvage so I cannot refute this. But I do hear "drop rates" being the complaint again.

The issue I keep hearing you guys harp on is how terrible all this old stuff was because of the drop rates.

Low drop rate = repeat and more repeat, on average.

That's... grind ('repetitiveness'), which was in part what people were complaining about.

Not because the content itself was unsatisfying or mindless,

Though I don't have a ToM weapon (or armor) of my own yet, I've helped out a number of people with them. I had fun doing that.

The content? Well, after farming Despot, Ro'Maeve Water, and Diorite for the hundredth, two hundredth times, the novelty wears off, I assure you. "Keep killing" ToM targets really isn't all that much different than "keep killing" critters that drop trigger or are place holder for trigger NMs.

Look, I appreciate the good story lines in the main mission, and I love Altana missions' epic scope storytelling. But, you can't get away from the basic rule that rare items are valuable in large part because they are rare. That means some combination of grind, luck, or insane battle (not Fafnir--think Absolute Virtue instead) to keep the number of those items in the player population low.

Anyway, with grind contents, it's about stuff you do over and over. Much of exp'ing, ToM, Sky, Sea, Limbus, Salvage, Dynamis, Einherjar, HNM camping, and even Abyssea and such are repetitive in nature. (Contrast that to mission fights, which one would only do once if selfish, and no more than a handful of times for most people who are helpful.)

Yet, these are can be fun if the play (usually some sort of fight) is involving; I had fun in many exp parties because they operated smoothly, for example. Wasn't an 'exciting' kind of fun, but more like the joy of putting one's skills to work.

Otherwise, you're looking at "hanging out with people" kind of fun. Which, is actually nice, too.

You're never going to be free of the grind in an MMORPG, it's the nature of the beast. What I shouldn't have to put up with is disgustingly lazy design that doesn't even bother trying to disguise it.

ToM doesn't strike me as a lazy design. (And, no, I'm not an SE fanboy. lol.)

It seems to be SE's response to this complaint: "I've done ____ for ____ months now, and still I got nothing I wanted because of drop rate and/or stupid unfair LS rules. When will I get what I wanted?"

What ToM does is to make the relationship between work needed to get to the item wanted explicit and utterly predictable. Do this task, you can get to next task/gear. No ambiguity on the grind needed.

No great amount of 'disguise' is warranted, because ToM is targeted at the players who need clarity and assurance of getting stuff for doing 'grind' work. Tossing in odd quests and loading up with cutscene or more interactive dialogs wouldn't have add much value.

I'd much prefer to get a group of friends together to go stomp on a dragon or clear out a dungeon for my gear, instead of being tasked with the mundane and unsatisfying chore of murdering 347.

Good luck claiming the dragon if it drops stuff people still want, but sure, go for it.

As for "clear out dungeon for gear", that's always killing lots of stuff. Since people have to go back again and again, it's literally killing thousands of monsters for gears with most people's luck, if we're talking about Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, or Einherjar. How's that so different from ToM again?

Abyssea is kind with many drops, but it still can take a while to get everyone their lower tier items, and highly desirable* items always have more people than drops. (* I'm still waiting for my Creed Collar, and I've fought Chukwa 15~20 times? Drops infrequently, and I've been out lotted every single time. Makes me want to pull the "But I'm on PLD more than the rest of you combined!" card. lol.)

[Ketaru]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

The Zilart storyline is pretty ho-hum, to be honest. You'd make your points better referencing Limbus or Salvage instead. Still, sky Shijin, Limbus Proto-Omega/Ultima, and Salvage bosses and sub-bosses are pretty far removed from the the main story lines they are associated with. They were designed to be done over and over again, so there are basically no storyline CS to get in the way.

Yeah, but in Cidbahamut's rationale, as long as it's dressed up pretty, it gets a pass. Never mind that the characters in Zilart are stock, the story is stale, and most of it is going around collecting grave stone items. No lessons to be learned. No character development to speak of. And to call the villains wooden would be an insult to trees.

But if it's a story- any story, even a bad one- that you want, I have just the event for you. It's called Abyssea. And you know how you advance the story? By fighting bosses. Bosses that require an alliance of average players to defeat. They're not easy. And they drop cool shit. Not only that, but you can neat stat boosters called Abyssites and Atma along the way so, in a way, it's actually better than Zilart because it consistently rewards you as you progress along the expansions.

The issue I keep hearing you guys harp on is how terrible all this old stuff was because of the drop rates.

Take the cotton out of your ears and maybe you'll hear more. How about you address some of my other points?

- Wanting to acquire items that others do not find desirable like...I don't know...melee gear for RDM. Surely you must be sympathetic to that.

- Trial of the Magians encourages grouping, but does not bar you from taking the "do-it-yourself" approach. The latter will just take infinitely longer. Once again, clear that dense ear wax out and you will notice several people here describe occasions where they have joined whole alliances (yes, I can bold words for emphasis too) to the end of completing magian trials.

- Allowing several people to work towards separate goals together. I can go for my Sword. Somebody else their dagger. Somebody else an axe. Another person H2H weapons. Now just because we all want separate items does not mean we can't join forces to get them done.

Or do you prefer your way of things where 15 people have to sacrifice time and energy for 1 person? It might not drop by the way. Hell, you might not even get a chance to fight the NM, just stare at is as some other people kill it. Or maybe people will be just so disinterested in getting your item that you can't even muster the necessary group to even try.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Trials are a major part of why I'm still playing. Heck the moment I run out of trials to do I start getting bored of the game again.

So while I can see why some people don't like them and would rather keep dreaming about relics instead I'm too busy having fun getting good weapons and partying with other players without the End-game LS crap to give a damn about complains.




PS > Which is what people in End-game LSs have been saying for so many years to people who want good gear but don't want to put up with LS stupidity. Isn't it?

[cidbahamut]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Your condescending tone is uncalled for sir.

Even a poorly done story is better than simply having a moogle tell me "Go kill x number of bunnies and I will give you something shiny". It's the laziest design template in the genre, bar none. I personally find it unsatisfying because it breaks the world atmosphere for me. Most of the quests and missions I've done in this game give the distinct sense of having some influence in the world's mythos and the people who inhabit it.

Take the cotton out of your ears and maybe you'll hear more

It might not drop by the way

You were saying?

It's not even that I begrudge ToM weapons for allowing players to steadily build progress, it's the way in which it's presented that irks me.

[Ketaru]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

If you have a problem with my tone, go somewhere else. Or get me banned. Good luck with that though.

Or...you can actively try to refute the other points I made. I conveniently listed them for you, by the way. I still have no idea how you missed them.

Even a poorly done story is better than simply having a moogle tell me "Go kill x number of bunnies and I will give you something shiny". It's the laziest design template in the genre, bar none. I personally find it unsatisfying because it breaks the world atmosphere for me. Most of the quests and missions I've done in this game give the distinct sense of having some influence in the world's mythos and the people who inhabit it.

Most of the quests and missions in this game reward you with triple digits of gil.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Most of the quests and missions in this game reward you with triple digits of gil.

All that text between when you accepted the quest and getting your reward wasn't just there to slow you down.

[Romyro]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

I'd much prefer to get a group of friends together to go stomp on a dragon or clear out a dungeon for my gear, instead of being tasked with the mundane and unsatisfying chore of murdering 347.

If I could pop the dragon or spam the dungeon whenever I wanted, and have the ‘group of friends’ willing to constantly help out when I’m free. …I would agree with you.

But the dragon has a ridiculous repop timer, and its window is past my bedtime
Or the dungeon can only be done if I have enough tags/gil…and if my friends have enough tags/gil
Or only 3 of my 5 friends are on.

At least with ToM I know what and how many trials I’ll need. And I can plan a schedule and not get bitched at if I slack. I can go off on my own or I can team up. I can at least make some progress if I don’t have tons of time. I can still progress if I’m solo. i can meet new people on similar trials and have something to talk about. i dont have to worry about wiping/getting out claimed/timing out...etc.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

It's not even that I begrudge ToM weapons for allowing players to steadily build progress, it's the way in which it's presented that irks me.

So you'd be COMPLETELY ok with ToM if we just got some filler bullshit cutscene and plot when we first start it? That's your main complaint? You are why we can't have nice things.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Even a poorly done story is better than simply having a moogle tell me "Go kill x number of bunnies and I will give you something shiny". It's the laziest design template in the genre, bar none. I personally find it unsatisfying because it breaks the world atmosphere for me. Most of the quests and missions I've done in this game give the distinct sense of having some influence in the world's mythos and the people who inhabit it.

While that's a valid complaint, do remember that before ToM, we already had "Get x for shiny y" style quest/mini-quests/'vendors' like:

- Allied Notes items
- Therion Ichor items
- Assault Points items
- Imperial Standing items
- Jailer of Love (drops traded to NPC for real rewards)
- ENM (drops traded to NPC for shinies for at least some of them?)
- Abjuration
- Guild points items
- Conquest Point items
- Weapon Latent unlock (from KSNM, WS trials, Nyzul Isle)

None of that is all that much creative than ToM. You can say ToM doesn't add much to the atmosphere beyond the Moogle acting Moogle-ish, but how does it take anything away? At least, how does it break the atmosphere any more than the others I've listed?

It's not even that I begrudge ToM weapons for allowing players to steadily build progress, it's the way in which it's presented that irks me.

Don't talk to the Magian Moogle, then. I know I haven't been. lol.

At some point, you'll have to revisit whether a ToM weapon/armor is wroth the distaste vs. accepting being less effective than many of those who underwent the trials. When, though, is entirely up to you, really.

[Malacite]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

A crap load of crying, pissing & moaning

You're right about Zilart's plot I'll give you that, though I do still find the Zilart as a whole very interesting and I like how CoP flushed out their story.


But as for the abyssea stuff.... dude, Abyssea is a joke. The only people having a hard time in it are laid back casuals & morons. Hate to break it to you but that's the reality - you can 3 man Carabosse now for crying out loud.

But how many people actually bother to take the time to gather Abyssites & Atma? Most people I've run into who aren't in Abyssea shells don't even know what they are. Generally, aside from getting enough people for some of the nastier bosses it really just boils down to having the right buffs & hitting weaknesses.


You want AF3 & Gear? Make sure you hit that Blue !!. Want Atma or other key items? Bring on the elemental WS and make sure you've got as many weapon types covered as you can. It's just like CoP - it seems brutally difficult at first, but with preparation & knowledge it's not that bad.


I mean shit, when you can run around with STR +50, Double Attack +10%, Regain 2/tic, +50 DEX, +30% Critical Hit Rate and +30% Critical Damage or INT +50%, Refresh 10/tic, Enmity -10, MAB +30, Ice MAB +30 and Light MAB +30 it's pretty hard not to just streamroll mobs. And those are just two of the more crazy combos, there's plenty of other game-breaking Atma, and it stands to reason that we'll get a 3rd freaking Lunar Abssyte, not to mention more Atma, with Heroes. Just take the time to actually acquire these buffs, it's not that bad. I'll concede I was skeptical about Abyssea at first too, but Scars just opened up a whole new world of ridiculous, god-like power to the player base. I want to smack a few of my friends who still haven't bought it yet but enjoy abyssea...

[Ketaru]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

A crap load of crying, pissing, and moaning huh?

I don't need to hear that from you of all people, who jumps at the opportunity to bitch about updates every time one comes around. I'm not the one whining about Trial of the Magians here. Or Abyssea for that matter.

Au contraire.

You're the one who is crying, pissing, and moaning. But that's ok. We don't expect anything else from you now or ever.