New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Maybe on your server, but whenever I see folks working on Magian stuff it's always some guy on his own camping a NM or endlessly punching out a specific mob family.

I see random pickup groups collaborating on Magian all the time on Ifrit; my sister was in several mixed NA/JP wamura parties recently as a matter of fact.

Even if there is some there are folks cooperating and generally being awesome, most of these things are end game gear, and I generally expect the cream of the crop equipment to come from some sort of event, not from a mindlessly grind that's basically the exp grind except we can't tell because the moogle is busy smacking us in the face with his little pompom.

Technically speaking, Moogle giving you a quest and giving you an upgraded weapon/armor after you complete the quest are both 'events', if a bit generic. (It's no more generic than the Abjuration gear, of course.)

With the number of items covered under ToM, though, it would've been pretty unworkable without generic events.

Post 75 it seems there's no options other than Magian Trials. That's my beef with them. They aren't a new option, they're the only option nowadays.

Well, if you really want to buy weapons, shout for mercs to help with your ToM weapons?

I do feel sorry for crafters trying to make gil with armor/weapon, however.

Then again, without a armor/weapon deterioration/degradation or some sort of "imprint" or "soul bind" system (besides Succor to the Sidhe), everyone who buys a crafted armor or weapon becomes a potential competitor to the crafter in future sales. Basically, weapon/armor crafters were screwed to begin with.

Empyreans utterly destroy relics, no contest.

ToM's for Excalibur are a bit ridiculous, but it doesn't look like Almace blows Excalibur away; if accuracy isn't a problem, fully upgraded Excalibur looks to have better DPS, too.

How damaging is Chant du Cygne, anyway?

[Malacite]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

When have you ever seen a 4400+ Knights of the Round by a freaking RDM?? Oh right that doesn't happen.

Never mind the 30% ODD proc rate which kicks the crap out of Relic DPS just by itself. Relic super crit is somewhere in the neighborhood of what, 5%? Vs approx 1/3 strikes doing double damage for 30~90s depending on TP (100/200/300 = 30/60/90s duration)


Seriously the numbers speak for themselves, SE was not kidding when they called these "Gods among weapons". And I reiterate - a 6k+ damage freaking Ukko's Fury was done by Failure Midgard with just the +1 WoE GAX. Now, the ODD doesn't stack with WS the way mythic weapons AM does, but even still that just goes to show how ridiculously powerful these new WS & Weapons are. The actual Empyrean wouldn't increase UF's damage a little bit, but the ODD aftermath on top of that.... and with WAR's AF3+2 granting triple damage on double attacks.... yeah, WAR is an absolute fucking monster right now.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

How damaging is Chant du Cygne, anyway?

Psst, psst

Jump to the 3 minute mark.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk8P-lEcsS0&start=3m"]YouTube - Duelo final de El Zorro[/ame]

[Ketaru]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Is it nice to have a do-it-yourself option available? Maybe.
I feel in many ways it undermines the core principles on which the game was founded: playing with other people. So while I can see the appeal of Trials for some folks, I don't think it should be as large a component of the game as it has become. Certainly there's non-Magian gear post 75, but the balance between the Trial gear and non-Trial gear is staggering.

Maybe I actually want to compete for my gear. Maybe I prefer the uncertainty of it all as it makes the eventual victory that much sweeter. Perhaps I find endlessly punching thousands of bunnies under absurdly specific conditions a gigantic pain in the ass. Maybe if I wanted that kind of game design I would have picked a game that was built around it rather than this one that has up until recently taken a distinctly different approach.

I see random pickup groups collaborating on Magian all the time on Ifrit; my sister was in several mixed NA/JP wamura parties recently as a matter of fact.

Competing for gear isn't about uncertainty that you may or may not get the item you want. It's a 0-sum game and not everybody can have whatever drops, certainly not the people you botted...er...outclaimed against. Who knows? Maybe the other guy was there camping it hours before you were and you just walked in, Provoked, and it was yours. Where's the fairness in that? Oh wait, there isn't any.

Worse, you may want something, but you will not find people who see value in you getting it. Example: I (RDM) want a Sword, and so does the PLD next to me. Guess who people will see more value in acquiring it.

What reward systems like Assault, and many others that followed it, did was that it allowed people to work toward separate goals, but together. If I wanted Yigit and you wanted Amir, that was not a barrier to joining forces. Here's what is the ideal scenario of Trial of the Magians looks like: I want my Sword. Cindy Luhu wants a Dagger. Jane Doe wants an Axe. And John Smith wants a H2H weapon. We all have to kill Vermin for them. You know what? People made the exact same complaints about Assault when it was implemented: "The gear is too good. It undervalues crafted gear. To those of you who want Pahluwan Khazagand: Think of those Scorpion harness crafters who are out on the streets now!"

You "can" do it on a do-it-yourself basis, which means if you log on, you always have something to do. But if the opportunity presents itself to do it with a partner, you'd be stupid not to group up.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

I guess HQ staves are something no one in the game ever bothers with, right?

To be frank, it's been a long freaking time coming that those have finally been obsoleted . . .

Or Thalassocrats, or that other polearm that I can't spell.

lolDabo?

(I think you're actually looking for the Mezraq. I'm just saying that this isn't anywhere near the first time crafting has got the short end of the stick.)

Look, I'll make this easy for you: argue that Magian weapons are obsoleting Valkyrie's Forks.

And there's no reason not to assume there will be a 3rd Lunar Abyssite.

Be that as it may . . . actually, I'll be blunt, I just wanted a smoother segue in to my ignore list comment.

You really are out of touch man. I know not everyone here goes to BG but it wouldn't hurt once in a while to keep up with the times. Empyreans utterly destroy relics, no contest.

Typically I avoid BG to avoid people like you.

But seriously, 30% proc rate 2x damage Aftermath? How long does that crap last? And isn't the proc rate for 2.5x damage on Relics like, only 5% (or does this at least increase with level)?

I don't think I like the prospect of Excalibur being outdone by that Airplane sword very much at all . . .

EDIT: Stupid late post . . .

[Raydeus]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Relics had a very good life and were worth it back in the day.

But it is time for something new, and trial weapons are that something new.


PS > I may eventually get both Chant du Zorro and a nice Joy +10, but in the mean time the STR/DEX swords are great for me.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Er, I don't frequent BG, and I don't have any relic weapon. Heck, I don't have any ToM weapon. Really have to see some parses (with info on target, gear, and Atma) before I can judge how effective Almace is compared with (upgraded) Excalibur.

By the way, Chant du Cygne is a three hit crit WS, so I'd expect to see the numbers all over the place (like Vorpal Blade). One time "best damage" is almost irrelevant; average damage is the info needed.

[Karinya]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Maybe on your server, but whenever I see folks working on Magian stuff it's always some guy on his own camping a NM or endlessly punching out a specific mob family.

Just last weekend I joined an international alliance of players punching out (and stabbing, and slashing, etc.) Greater Manticores. (IIRC it peaked at 8, but some people finished and left before the day ended.) It was a lot of fun, but I see your point that it doesn't exactly compare to the challenge of Lv75 endgame... except that all that stuff is gone now anyway, in both challenge and usability of the rewards (except relic and mythic weapons, which you can use to start their respective trial series and eventually turn into something good).

Given the reality of the level cap increases, TotM are one of the most benign gear systems we could possibly have gotten -- at least you don't have to completely replace your gear with every level cap raise the way WoW players do.

Even if there is some there are folks cooperating and generally being awesome, most of these things are end game gear,

By which you mean they can wear it at levels above 75 and not get totally laughed at, I assume. Because relic/mythic/empyreal all completely blow it away right now (and will no doubt continue to do so as their respective trials continue in parallel), and whatever drops from HNMs designed to challenge level 99s with multiple atma will probably fall somewhere in between.

and I generally expect the cream of the crop equipment to come from some sort of event, not from a mindlessly grind that's basically the exp grind except we can't tell because the moogle is busy smacking us in the face with his little pompom.

But I guess that's just me.

Armor trials seem to be exactly what you're asking for. Personally, I can't progress in them effectively because all my former endgame linkshells have been killed by the level cap destroying interest in the content they were formed for and/or FFXIV taking away all their players. But in theory they look possibly well-designed, if you can find enough players left on our ghost town servers to do them with.

Post 75 it seems there's no options other than Magian Trials. That's my beef with them. They aren't a new option, they're the only option nowadays.

That's not exactly true -- completed TotM weapons are better than most other options, but also very time-consuming to obtain, so people who have just gone from 65-85 in a weekend (and don't we all remember when something like that would have been an obvious exaggeration?) will need something else to use until they get started on their weeks of trialing. Maybe even Thalassocrat. (Although, of course, there's a ton of used Thalassocrats on the market now that so many people have upgraded -- the *real* bane of crafters of durable items is FFXI's lack of a BoE system, but at least cooks and fishermen are still in good shape since their demand never goes away. Alchemists too, to some extent.)

The weapons people *really* wanted at 75, like Hagun, Ridill and Joyeuse, didn't exactly support crafters anyway. Thalassocrat was popular because you could just walk up to the AH and buy it, not because it compared to Gungnir, Ryunohige (the un-trialed level 75 versions) or Valk Fork. (IIRC it was better than Tonbogiri, but that's because Tonbogiri was poorly designed and kinda sucked.)

Leaving aside TotM, either the drops (including items bought with some kind of point system from endgame-ish content like Assault/Einherjar/etc. -- cruor doesn't really qualify since you can farm it from wimpy mobs) are going to be better than the crafted stuff, or the crafted stuff is going to be better than the drops. The latter is obviously ridiculous (why do the fights with the drops if it just gives you something worse than AH?) and the former makes crafted items a stepping stone until you get something better. There's only so far you can go with "situationally better" -- especially in the not-practically-swappable-for-melees weapon slot.

[Malacite]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Guess who people will see more value in acquiring it.

That's precisely the problem that's wrong with too many LS these days, only the opposite - People aren't prioritizing drops and instead still using a stupid points and/or seniority system. At least that's been the case in my experience about 9/10 times.

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

By the way, Chant du Cygne is a three hit crit WS, so I'd expect to see the numbers all over the place (like Vorpal Blade). One time "best damage" is almost irrelevant; average damage is the info needed.

Again, BG...

Outside of Abyssea this may hold true, but inside it's a non-issue. Razed Ruins is such a disgustingly powerful Atma. Factor in all the new crit gear/traits and Enhancement buffs from NPCs/Martellos and it's really not that hard to keep your crit WS very consistent. I'm still working on getting my 2nd lunar (just need to frag 1 of the bosses damn it) but I did get RR recently and the difference is like night & day on my DRG now. If I could just get my hands on Voracious Violet & that 2nd lunar I should be able to get my Drakesbanes up to 3k+ easily.

[Ketaru]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

That's precisely the problem that's wrong with too many LS these days, only the opposite - People aren't prioritizing drops and instead still using a stupid points and/or seniority system. At least that's been the case in my experience about 9/10 times.

Is that a complaint about Trial of the Magians or a compliment of it? Because you don't have to involve your linkshell at all in working on them.

Of course, most linkshells know that it is blatantly unfair to not take seniority or points into account.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

When I initially started playing FFXI it was because I wanted adventure and challenging, enjoyable content. Over the years FFXI has lost its way and now S-E are feeding players stale, recycled content that just leaves you feeling like a hamster in a wheel, after you've done enough revolutions you get your piece of cheese. The core issue with ToM is they don't even make an attempt to cover this mundane shitty design with backstory or interesting cutscenes, it is just pure, blatant tedium.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Why are you even still visiting these forums? At least Feba is moderately entertaining from time to time, you do nothing but spit vitriol whenever you post.

Furthermore, I'd love to hear a detailed description of the system you'd rather have in place over ToM. Because I can't think of any system that was ever present in this game that beats it in terms of time:reward ratio, or offered as wide a variety of rewards.

I mean, seriously, think about it. If the Trials really were as terrible as you people are saying they are, do you think as many people would be doing them as there are now?

[Mhurron]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

If the Trials really were as terrible as you people are saying they are, do you think as many people would be doing them as there are now?

When there is no other alternative for getting weapons past 75, you will do it, or you'll quit. People aren't doing trials because they're super exciting.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

Again, BG...

BG is unpleasant. Finding info there is like trying up pick up rice grains from a field of sand--with tar all over the place.

Outside of Abyssea this may hold true, but inside it's a non-issue. Razed Ruins is such a disgustingly powerful Atma. Factor in all the new crit gear/traits and Enhancement buffs from NPCs/Martellos and it's really not that hard to keep your crit WS very consistent.

1. Not everyone has Razed Ruins--I don't. I guess people who have Almace probably are the type who would, but would PLDs use Razed Ruins?

The typical tanking Atma pairing is an HP+ Atma and a Refresh Atma, leaving no room for DD Atma anyway, unless not doing hard NMs.


2. "Consistent" in this context means nearly the same damage on same target with same buffs.

While RR would mean more consistent damage, unless Chant du Cygne itself has huge crit hit%+ buff to all hits--to the point of with RR all hits are almost all crits all the time--the damage won't be consistent.

* * *

I don't get the complaints about ToM weapons, with regard to the grind without 'story'.

Think of old content, say, Ridill. What story is there? Camping for an Fafnir pop every 24 hrs, hoping you can out claim botters, and then cross your fingers hoping it'd drop and you'd win the lot. That's not really less grind--that's just more unpredictable grind.

About the same for Kirin's drops, except it's even more grind to build the pop set. The 'story' is basically the short text blurbs on when Shijin and Kirin pop and when they are KO'ed. That's pretty thin, too.

Salvage's story is basically one NPC telling you you can get into neat old ruins for loot, while another telling you he'd reward you if you bring him funny armor. And, the terrible drop rate for some of the pieces. Now, that is grind.

* * *

Fundamentally, to give the player a strong sense of achievement, the player needs to put in a lot of effort, or feel like they've been extraordinarily lucky. That's either grind, ridiculously hard battle, low drop rate, or some combination of the three. There's also the issue of value of an item (in player's eyes) often depends on how rare it is--making it so everyone can obtain the said item is to cheapen its value/appeal.

You can disguise it, sugar coat it, whatever, but that's how games like this work.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: New Version Update Draws Near! (11/09/2010)

There are still non-ToM weapon options. Sobek for example drops an amazing offhand for NIN, the T4 NM in La Thiene drops a decent MH. The NMs in the new zones drop faux Relic WS weapons that you can charge up to use Relic WS, some of which are still good and iirc you would get the aftermath effect from them(not sure about that part). Also some weapons like the sea ones that use stones to proc double damage and stuff like that, so if you want to go the NM camping route, you have options there.

That doesn't make ToM useless, you frankly put in work, and get nice weapons. And not just any weapons, weapons you yourself can choose the stat type of. Do you want STR? You can do that. Do you want Double Attack, occasionally attack 2-3? Can do that too. I put in alot more work for example on my STR sword for BLU/RDM/PLD than I did to camp Lord Varney and get his Magnus Sword, it should obviously be better. If you don't want to do ToM then you settle for what is easier to get but not as effective. And also something that has a random chance of dropping and not even claimed by you against something you can work towards and definitely know that once you finish X trial, you will get Y weapon with Z stats. You aren't forced to do ToM at all, it's just overall better weapons cause you put in more work than standing around popping/claiming shit that we've been doing for 6+ years.

And the new Empyrean weapons DO destroy Relics and Mythics, sorry. They require far less effort depending on the path, and do much more damage(think the mace one doesn't do damage but just heals). Aside from some relics like Apoc which make DRK tanking easier and the ranged one with the enmity- factor on the WS to keep from pulling hate, the Empyrean weapons are completely overpowered, and if you have to choose between either having to killshot 1500 mobs at 90 for your next relic upgrade, or collecting 50 drops from a new NM that will have drops that several other people will need and therefore something you can do with others, the choice is obvious which one is better to upgrade. The difference between Amano and Masamune is enormous even without Atma in Abyssea, and Masamune is one of the EASIEST Empyrean weapons to get. Only a few niche things like PUP mythic are even worth doing anymore.