new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

[Malacite]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Attn RDMs in abyssea: Get your damn lunar abyssites and the following if you really want to kick ass;

- Atma of the Razed Ruin - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

- Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more


^ Should give you some epic Vorpals/Eviscerations and plenty of MP.

[Raydeus]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Evisceration only if you don't have trial weapons.

Too bad SE completely removed dagger from RDM melee (save ele pwning with En-Hornet), it used to be fun.




PS > I've actually removed Dagger merits to reroute then for useful things... you know, like parry and evasion...

(Shield)

[Hyrist]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

You gave up too early.

Machismo - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more
Dagger Weaponskill: Attack +20
Dagger Weaponskills: Triple Attack +6
(Magiacal Bonus of your choice, I prefer Enhancing Conserve MP +4 Or enhancing magic recast delay -4%)You Decide

[Raydeus]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Meh.

No thanks.

[Malacite]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Too bad RDM can't use Auric Dagger

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

With proper Atmas and gear, I'm sure our melee would still be a much lesser waste of time.

I don't think there's a real question on whether RDM can output useful damage on NQs in Abyssea, but rather if that's the best way to spend one's time and attention and inventory space. (Yes, yes, some players can do it all--I can't find the space to fit all the equipment myself and I don't multitask very well, so I choose to concentrate on the mage side of things most of the time.)

Plenty of NMs have nasty AoEs; if you can't field a adequate support team for the front line full of DDs, you're looking to the reduce front line to limit TP feed, or you do low man and/or the (near exploit) "pinning" thing.

If planning on enough support for (near) zerg style attack, the RDM is best used in the support/cure team. If reducing TP feed, you'd only want your best one or two strong melee DDs on it, and don't want the RDMs with their OAT/T weapons. If low man and/or pinning, the RDM would be on enfeebling/DoT and nuke duty--not melee'ing. So, for most of the NMs, it's a no brainer that the RDM has better things to do than to be in AoE range and melee.

Finally, whatever "proper Atmas" you're planning to boost melee damage for RDM, just think what those Atmas would do for the real DDs--the DDs only pull away more in Abyssea, rather than Red Mages catching up to them.

This is the fun part, when Pld's are duel wielding excals/joytoys, rdms are meleeing and not worrying about haste, etc.
So you can Melee to your hearts content, until it's time to farm /shrug.

Melee'ing without haste isn't as much fun for the DDs.

Really, how much time does your LS spend in Abyssea each session? 120 min going in, then spend time to build more time before the actual NM popping/hunting sounds very, very long.

[Ketaru]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

It will never fail that, when people are talking about how to make sure you have a good set up to do it, somebody will always drop the caveat "Just don't do it against NMs", as if some don't know any better without somebody shadowing threads to make sure it always makes its way in there. Believe it or not, some of us actually aren't stupid. I know, unbelievable.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Then, mentally block off the parts about NM--the question on whether melee is still the best use of time/inventory/attention span on NQs (while in large group) remains legitimate, and the point about Atmas help DDs to pull further ahead of RDM-as-DD also remains valid.


The RDM melee debate is really old, and it's hard to see how the Lv.85 cap and Abyssea in any way closes the gap between melee DDs and melee RDM, nor has RDM's efficacy in other area been reduced.

There's no real reason to bring up this ancient topic yet again at this time, in short.

[ShepardG]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Melee'ing without haste isn't as much fun for the DDs.

Really, how much time does your LS spend in Abyssea each session? 120 min going in, then spend time to build more time before the actual NM popping/hunting sounds very, very long.

Yeah the melee's will get their buffs and their chance to perform when it's time to fight things that matter,

And capping lights in Abyssea takes about 10-20 minutes, another 20 to push time around 200mins and then however long people wanna screw around in the zone.

Have your mages go hunting ephemeral murex's/ameobeans/etc. 2-3 can easily sleep nuke them and cap your azure with 3-4 kills. If were in a scar's zone (attowha,miserux,vunk) we'll send a healer and a DD or 2 to go kill mobs to push up our Amber light, for AF3 feet. (which never drop, because bastion never can keep ex07 martello cores><)

[KingOfZeal]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

I don't see what keeping the martello core has to do with anything. We did Mis farming the other day somewhat similar to what you said, ended up with 4 pairs of feet in about 3 hours total. The only time you see many people on these days is the weekend afternoon, when Japanese players are finishing up their abyssea farming, where you'll see up to about 100 people per new zone. How many are doing Bastion? Maybe 2.

[Vyuru]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

I'm just gonna say that I'm not too fond of the, "Let Rdm melee for efficiency in small groups/whatever" comments I still see people tossing around in various forums and stuff. That is considering that all the various buffs and atmas allow one of my LS's Blue Mages to get off spells for 4k+ damage pretty consistently as Blu/Thf. It gets... interesting.... when he stacks Fantod for a bit then SACA/SAEF+Spell. I've seen more two handed DDs consistently breaking the 1500 damage WS mark as well, with some 2k+ WS from the people pimped out with 2x atma/abyssites/buffs/gear/etc.

Can Rdm melee? Sure, and I have no problem if they can still do their jobs as mages if they want to melee. But unless they have some way to enhance their spell damage by crazy amounts, Rdm just can't hold a candle to a real DD.

[Ketaru]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Can Rdm melee? Sure, and I have no problem if they can still do their jobs as mages if they want to melee. But unless they have some way to enhance their spell damage by crazy amounts, Rdm just can't hold a candle to a real DD.

And you see, that's the problem I have with the way this is always discussed. You could say the bolded part and stop right there. Instead, everybody always has to make sure they add that little apologetic at the end, as if fearing the appearance of foolishness.

I'm more interested in the question: If all these BLUs can go about doing 4K damage spells, why don't I see more of them doing it?

[Raydeus]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Also worth mentioning is there's a world of stuff to do out there that is not Abyssea. Stuff were a RDM can melee/tank/mage without problems.

Trying to tie AF3 to Abyssea-only activities is like trying to tie AF2 to Dynamis-only.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

Note to Hyrist: curse you.

Because of your comment on Enspells II being bad (brokenly horrible), I spent the better part of last weekend wrestling with the math to try and get a certain answer one way or the other over which Enspell is better when and why. Never got such an answer, just a bunch of "lol plug in about a hundred numbers and maybe you'll see which one does better damage under your very specific situation. Maybe."

OA2-3 Khanda +1 and KClub aside, Enspells II seem to be the superior option to single-wielding just about anything else, including stuff like Joyeuse (and, by extension, the OA2 Khanda +1), and even accounting for a 4-points-of-Enspell-damage difference in Enhancing Magic Skill gear (which, at the current point in this game, is rather freaking improbable considering some of the gear required). And this is ignoring potential uses for the AM-on-a-stick effect. Really, if there's anything "brokenly horrible" about Enspells II, it's trying to get any sort of definite number from them mathematically (as I spent this last weekend learning).

Also, off-topic, but seriously calling the Pokemon games as little more than a way to get parents' money so their "obsessive children behave" (@LBR)? I mean, dude, you're a hero in my book, but this is so many negative points I must turn around and ask, What The Hell, Hero? - Television Tropes & Idioms



As for the rest of you.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of hearing "RDM doesn't melee as well as dedicated melee." I would have never guessed. Next you're going to tell me that the sky is red in Abyssea and that people die if they are killed. Well, just like people dying if they're killed, Red Mages not out-meleeing dedicated melees is the way it should be. Same applies to not out-healing dedicated healers and not out-nuking dedicated nukers.

To say that it disqualifies a Red Mage from contributing to melee damage at all (provided all magical duties are being covered, though I really shouldn't have to say that either, at this point) provided that the Red Mage in question is properly prepared and the situation is not extraneous (again, both should be really freaking obvious) is nothing short of elitist. The same applies to our nuking. As Hyrist pointed out earlier, my argument should not be against Red Mages who prefer going a purely magical route. Just as I do not want them stepping on me, I should not be stepping on them. (Not to mention, as Hyrist also said earlier, we should automatically provide less damage anyway through producing even more damage by supporting your sorry behinds.) (Also, one man's nuking piece is another man's Sanguine Blade piece . . . )

Heck, even against some of these "scary NMs" I keep seeing used as situations where a hybrid Red Mage would be completely unjustifiable, unless the NM in question had some kind of super-Magic Shield effect that caused any Sword specifically wielded by a Red Mage that hit it to bounce off and decapitate said Red Mage in an OHKO, I see no reason why the Red Mage couldn't at least build up TP beforehand to apply a Death Blossom and an Enspell II effect of your choice to make it momentarily more vulnerable to our, and everybody else's, magical attacks. The "AoE range" argument is rather silly as well when you apply it to a job that, while it cannot out-damage them, can certainly out-survive half the front line.



Oh, and one more note to Hyrist: why bother with the Fomor Kings and finding the proper crafters and Evoliths when one can potentially solo-Trial themselves a Sword that is an overall superior weapon to everything except maybe piercing-weak enemies maybe?

[Ketaru]

Re: new level 85 cap?.... what the hell

I see no reason why the Red Mage couldn't at least build up TP beforehand to apply a Death Blossom and an Enspell II effect of your choice to make it momentarily more vulnerable to our, and everybody else's, magical attacks

Reason: In this day and age, you'd have to be casting naked in order to not land spells. If it's something you can't land spells on even with moderately good gear, it's probably not even worth trying.