Abyssea Experiences

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

can't argue with numerical proof though. So I gotta give the point to Itaz, However I don't agree with booting people from a time event, its not a meripo, people have to wait hours to get stones, if it was just generic exp sure, but to invite someone then boot them after an hour which takes 40 hours or a good long abyssea party to get the time like that is just as dickish as them not performing well.

That aside if it was to be an awesome super wicked party Id remove the following if I was a super dick.

Anyone under 75% ACC would be gone. Which leaves you with a PLD and a couple DRG's. Heck of a party right there if you ask me. If DD can't hit 85% ACC (the statistical break point for Haste vs ACC gear) then they have no business being there, in an elitest world.

What I am curious to know however is the following.

If you get into a gimp group like that where a PLD is #3 on DPS why don't you just leave and find a better group? Why should your opinion count? Also Why the hell does DPS matter. I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me. Its the same deal as colibri parties where I out DPS 2 handers, but they more than make up for it with 1K-2K WS's where I can't break 1K.

It is fine and all to show this crap, but it is a minor drop into the bucket of usefulness. How often did they WS, how often did they sit on hundreds of TP because it was nuke kills, or non WS kills. Its easy to point and say so and so isn't contributing, but when it comes down to it, SAM's DRG's DRK's WAR's get most of their damage from WS they are not a DoT group, 1 Handers are DoT groups, but lack the WS generally, jobs like THF and BLU make up for this using SATA and Chain Affinity to add damage to their otherwise gimp ass WS. Where the issue really lies is in party composition TBH. 15 jobs listed there. leaving 3 spots in an ally for support. 1 SMN at least is present, so that leaves 2 spots for healers and support. (possibly a bit more based on potential cycling.)

What I do not understand is how you can fault these people for a gimp set up to begin with 90% of melee DD base ther gear around having at last 1 support job. We also know that 90% of melee suck without one, it has always been the case. Epeens are only so big because of BRD's COR's and Haste. Had you had any of these buffs on the big DD your little list would be quite different. Just because the gimp group was gimp isn't a reason to fault all these people for a failed group.

DD should have a BRD or a COR with a WHM or RDM (or/WHM) for haste. That is a huge drawback to many jobs production. Hell 1 handed DD with no haste other than NIN or DNC are gimped from the get go.

All in all this party was doomed to fail from the get go, it is hardly the DD's fault entirely. Whoever built the party is the real culprit for the retard title. You think after so many years of being stupid back in the day ad thinking bards sucked (2001-2006) and the recent years of them being treated like gods for being able to increase DD potential close to 25% each (like adding another DD), the retard who built this party would have brought 1 or two.

Should the DD look at their gear and fix things so they are ready without support, yes, but after 4 years of DD/DD/DD/BRD/COR/RDM most assume there will be a support job providing the buffs they need so their gear functions best.

Case in point, your data is useless, DPS is redundant, and the group was destined to fail from the get go.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Have you tried the following (should only need dusk +1 to cap out on haste)

W.T (5%)
Golird (4%)
DuskG (3%)
DuskL (2%)
Headlong (or better just an ex.) (3%)
ASA legs (3%)

Thats 20% with
Swift belt + (4-6%)
Dusk +1 x2 (7%)
Sentinel S. (1%)

with those items as well as the former items RDM caps haste =)

Close.

W Turban
Goliard
DuskG
DuskL
Swift Belt
Sentinel S

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though. Shocked that you're suggesting Shield though, seeing as I thought you would recommend /NIN if you purely wanted to focus on damage dealing on RDM.

I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me.

In Marinara Pizza, all things are possible. If you're using it and they aren't (and a lot of them don't), that shifts things way in your favor.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though. Shocked that you're suggesting Shield though, seeing as I thought you would recommend /NIN if you purely wanted to focus on damage dealing on RDM.

From a strict Damage stand point, technically single wielding is Higher DPS for us. Using Enspell 2 is as well. Death Blossom is one of our best WS's it is statistically equal to vorpal, and slightly behind Evis for potential, However the mods on it play more in our favor thanks to our MND and STR bein accounted for (not just STR or DEX) this gives us another 20 DMG or so per hit (pre pdif) than we can get from vorpal or evis.

Now single wield opens up max haste potential. Should you be in an appropriate setting (ex an abyssea party). Gear haste of 25% Self haste 40% x2 march 61% and 71% haste samba. (get to it in a moment). That makes your joytoy swing at
224*.29 = 64.96/1.45 = 44.8/60 = .74 seconds (accounting for joyeuse DA) This essentially means you will be near constantly swinging and getting TP constantly. (for comparison sake 224+178*.80*.21 = 93.26/1.45 = 64.31/60 1.07

This is highly useful because of our spell casting requirements. This means we don't really lose much time. Lowering the haste even 1% at this rate is like knocking of 3% speed.

224*.30 = 67.2/1.45 = 46.34/60 = .77 seconds (3% slower)
224+178*.80*.30 = 96.46/1.45 = 66.53/60 = 1.10 (3% slower)

so DW will attack 1.10/.74 = 1.48 = 48% slower

That means for every 2 Attack round joyeuse sw takes 3 which is 18~36 TP vs a potential 10-30

Which means you are going to get a WS 10/18 = 55%(45) - 30/36 = 83%(17)
17-35% faster (avg of 26%)

So a better WS, more often.

Lastly we come to Enspell II. The reason we use this is because ~50% of the time we are going to get a Joyeuse DA. Which means in a max haste situation we will be getting haste samba very often. Now it will not be 100% of the time, so the above math is a little bit out. But it will be there, meaning we will be able to apply enspell damage 4.5% faster on averae than if we had DW weapons hit. We also are doing the maximum damage with enspells we can (actually more since enspell 1 on joyeuse only does 20+20*45 = 29. And our en II will do 18*2 = 36dmg. (not doing resists or +DMG.)

so we attack faster, weapon skill more, and apply more Enspell damage.

As for the subjob I choose DNC for the fact it has utility abilities (TP heals + TP erase + Aspir Samaba + Drain Samba + Steps) Basically I can apply 25% DEF down myself (dia III box step) 20 evasion down (gravity, quickstep and one of the flourishes), and -40ish resistance to any element I want (enspell 2+Stutter step+Death Blossom) as well as all my other tricks and tools. (if going to staff swap I dump my TP into steps or heals before hand so IT IS NOT WASTED) this allows me to never waste my TP and still apply things like Slow or Para IF a staff is required. DNC also offers me an ACC bonus and a Subtle Blow.

Frankly I see no competition for subs and no reason to use more than 1 weapon. It will out DoT a DW RDM, it will out WS a DW RDM, it will out perform in pretty near ever department.

That is why I choose DNC I get every thing I want, and in situations where DW may be preferable (such as self haste only) I can just switch weapons in and DW.

In Marinara Pizza, all things are possible. If you're using it and they aren't (and a lot of them don't), that shifts things way in your favor.

This is true, and probably one of things that im glad they put in. A food that RDM and DD's can eat alike that provides solid buffs to both ACC and ATK. This should be the go to exp food for nearly every job. (melee wise)


Sorry I rambled there for a bit....

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

And I wouldn't expect every member of an alliance to be up to *my* level of gear, let alone yours. ISTM that we may have seriously different points of view on what is "decent" gear and what is "super".

Don't need my level of gear to beat my PLD on a DD job in terms of damage output, I think. Plus at Lv.78, the cheap and easy to get Perle set pretty much closes the gap for any job which can use it.

I'm lucky enough to have joyeuse,

Three out four PLDs in that alliance had it. Most PLDs I've seen in Abyssea had it. Heck, many of the DW WARs used Joyeuse off-hand. It's just not that rare, though I wouldn't call it a must have.

Knowing back in town that they're going to want you to DD is a huge asset which there's no way of knowing whether the other PLD had that advantage or not.)

Lv.70+, PLDs don't really 'tank' in exp situations beyond a first Provoke and/or Flash--the critter should turn to the DD as soon as the first WS is used. Why wouldn't a PLD bring DD TP/WS sets?

Hmm... A puller is sometimes "engaged" when they're running back to camp with a mob chasing them, but obviously doing 0 DPS during that time. Also, I sometimes unlock and run off to find the next mob without disengaging in order to avoid spending time on the disengage animation, particularly at the hectic pace of Abyssea (have only pulled there once). Can the parser compensate for those seconds where you are technically engaged but not actually swinging at anything? Or do they just get included in the denominator of the DPS calculation while contributing nothing to the numerator? It's obvious how that would skew the result.

Good points. I don't know how KParser does DPS calculation on that level of detail. Judging from the melee accuracy and Dancing Edge numbers, that THF probably wasn't all that strong regardless of how the DPS may be skewed to his disadvantage, but I also agree that damage output from a good puller isn't as important. (Wouldn't be a factor at all in a fast kill alliance--but that alliance wasn't one of those.)

In that particular alliance, the DNC was originally the puller when I first arrived. I guess I got it stuck in my head that THF was (originally) a DD. Reflecting on what you wrote, perhaps the nearly useless DNC should be replaced first.

Can you TA onto a member of a different party in your alliance?

Yes. Done all the time in places like Sky.

I probably wouldn't have invited him [turtle PLD] in the first place, but ISTM that inviting him, having him come out to the party, and then booting him is a much more extraordinary step that shouldn't be taken simply because a PLD showed up expecting to play like PLD normally do.

Well, the whole thing was about "If you were to run things, what would you do differently?"

I'd give any job a chance after I filled the critical slots, and I would let a PLD know I expect /NIN (but not not necessarily DW), plus DD gear and food. Wouldn't take up four slots with PLDs, but one or two should be fine.

* * *

Probably shouldn't bother, but can't resist a few pokes... lol.

If you get into a gimp group like that where a PLD is #3 on DPS why don't you just leave and find a better group?

1. Wasn't looking at the performance tab when I was in party--didn't have it open. (Kparser can record data while displaying no info--it's actually a good way of running it on slower computers. Finish parse, then open up tabs to view results.)

2. The only reason I joined was to play around with my new toy, Organics--I didn't need exp, and was already nearly merited out.

Also Why the hell does DPS matter. I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me.

You're confusing Total DPS with Melee DPS. Total DPS in KParser includes melee damage, additional effect damage, spike damage (think Ice Spikes spell/gear), ranged damage, spell damage, and, yes, WS damage.

Of course good DRG/MNK/SAM/Other DDs will out damage you--and out DPS you.

Case in point, your data is useless, DPS is redundant, and the group was destined to fail from the get go.

I'd argue your rants are useless, especially when you don't even know what you're ranting against. (See above regarding DPS.)

p.s. As laughable as that alliance was, I finished my merits.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though.

Thing is, though, those pants are probably the most worthwhile (and most definitely the most flexible) of each of the three final add-on rewards. Unfortunately, like the other two add-on final rewards, they are by a wide margin the most worthwhile thing about the add-on at all.

Which is why I, personally, am holding out for an Ultimate Collection 2. Buying ASA itself? Pass. ASA as a bonus with Abyssea (and that Nexus Cape to boot)? Sure why not.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I'd argue your rants are useless, especially when you don't even know what you're ranting against. (See above regarding DPS.)

You can argue that all you want, Ill argue that your data is incomplete, and thus useless. how many mobs did you fight, how mny mobs were the melee engaged but not swinging, (ie. waiting on magic kills). What were certain jobs doing. Where is the magic damage to see what the BLU did, where is the healing done to see what the DNC did, where is the buff durations to see who had what buffs vs others not having them.

There are so many variables you left out it is ridiculous. Post the whole unaltered parse, not just what you consider suits your needs.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Ill argue that your data is incomplete, and thus useless.

There are so many variables you left out it is ridiculous. Post the whole unaltered parse

Dude, don't freaking encourage him. You aren't even arguing anything any more, anyway, since nobody is contesting your claim that you can outdo bad DDs, but not good ones.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Lv.70+, PLDs don't really 'tank' in exp situations beyond a first Provoke and/or Flash--the critter should turn to the DD as soon as the first WS is used. Why wouldn't a PLD bring DD TP/WS sets?

First of all, I don't think people necessarily approach Abyssea as something analogous to a colibri party; maybe they should (aside from bringing food!), if the mobs are really a complete joke, but if they treat it more like Dynamis or other endgame zones where letting the DD tank with their faces gets them killed pretty darn quick, then they would have a reason to keep on their enmity sets and try to recapture hate before someone gets their face ripped off, while cursing out the DDs that WS early without TA.

But that's an issue that will probably work itself out as more people get more experience with Abyssea. Personally I *prefer* fighting dangerous mobs, and the tactics that come out of that (including DDs being responsible for watching their own hate or TAing their WS on someone who can take it), but if Abyssea isn't like that, then it isn't, and you should adapt tactics accordingly.

More importantly, though, you were using a mixed DW build with a high dmg main hand and Joyeuse offhand. Any PLD that is Provoking first or at any other time is, necessarily, not doing that. Even if they have the other DD gear, they're still not going to approach your overall damage or WS damage. If they use the Joyeuse (assuming they have it) they'll have weak WS and if they use a high dmg weapon they'll have slow TP gain -- and whichever way they choose, they won't have the delay reduction of DW2 or Suppa's enhancement to it.

*That's* why you need to know back in town that you're coming as DD -- because mixed DW builds rely on DW, so you have to choose SJ accordingly. No PLD/WAR can duplicate your DD build regardless of what gear they have access to.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Dude, don't freaking encourage him. You aren't even arguing anything any more, anyway, since nobody is contesting your claim that you can outdo bad DDs, but not good ones.

I don't care if it gets contested. It is my point, A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise, anything else will just chew us up with WS usage. That is not my point, it is simply a statement that.

If a DD is under performing against me, then they are doing something very very wrong. (and no I do not consider those 4 jobs I listed to be DD I consider them utility/hybrid jobs, as they have functions above and beyond simply dealing damage.)

If you look at the list of jobs, the single handers fared relatively poor by comparison, notably the BLU DNC THF. All of which have other things they can do. From the list provided there is limited room for healers. Especially once you include the fact there needs to BLM's and/or SCH's to achieve Azure Light. So All I am saying is while yes he has shown the DPS to support his claim, he has not shown information about other things these jobs can be doing. Such as healing with TP in the DNC's case, Or healing with Blue Magic in the BLU's case, both of which take time from melee or other but still counts time towards DPS. He has not provided any info on who is getting the limited buffs available. Was the top 3-4 DD getting haste, were they in the DNC group benefiting from a Samba, or ACC steps. The THF pulled and therfore his time engaged is bloated to his actual time doing damage. As for the bigger DD were they able to use berserk/hasso etc full time? was there enough support to allow them to go all out or did they have to check themselves due to overall lack of support. Where is the buff list, where is the magic damage list and where is the healing done list. All of these are valid precursors to the damage potential of DD's. Especially in large groups.

It is a reason why so many jobs get a bad rap. This number stigma is stupid, since the only number people care about is that damage done number. It is why (this is another example YM) RDM gets scoffed at, it gets laughed at because it performs to about 80-85% of a big DD. But people fail to realize that RDM also healed for thousands of HP provided buffs and debuffs WHILE doing 80-85% of a big DD's output. I have seen it time and time again, which is why I want to see more of the lists pertaining to the DNC and BLU before I pass judgment, both of these jobs can spend a lot of time supporting with utiliy spells and abilities. (and by extension I want to see what buffs and support the bigger DD had, before I simply pass them off as lazy).

Im not saying that some of them probabaly weren't lazy, or weren't eating food but to blanket a whole party based on such little evidence is ridiculous, he has basically provided information that only supports his theory as to why it was, instead of supplying all the data. Whole Parse or no Parse, otherwise it is a waste of his time posting it, and a waste of our time reading it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise, anything else will just chew us up with WS usage.

I'd love to hear your logic on why this should be the case with THF and NIN considering how godly RDM is in all areas of FFXI compared to those two jobs.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I'd love to hear your logic on why this should be the case with THF and NIN considering how godly RDM is in all areas of FFXI compared to those two jobs.

A RDM that is geared well should be able to outdamage an averagely geared THF or NIN. Learn to finish reading:

If a DD is under performing against me, then they are doing something very very wrong. (and no I do not consider those 4 jobs I listed to be DD I consider them utility/hybrid jobs, as they have functions above and beyond simply dealing damage.)

DD being jobs like SAM, DRK, or WAR. NIN and THF haven't been considered DDs for some time now. Get over it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Get over it.

Not sure if you think being an angsty, defensive little prick helps convey your point or if you're just looking for some love but the fact remains RDM should not be out DD'ing THF or NIN via melee simply because those jobs have little to no use outside of that role. Ninja at one time was a competent tank but over the last few years S-E has managed to turn it in to a pathetic joke. Comparing RDM and NIN only highlights the ridiculous disparity between the two. RDM tanks, debuffs, and DD's (via nukes) all better than NIN while also possessing healing, enhancement buffs like Refresh and Haste, and crowd control abilities such as Sleep and Gravity. THF is even worse off when you use that criteria as well. So yeah, any RDM I see claiming they should be on a melee DD level with NIN is going to get called out for the sheer idiocy of the statement.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

RDM tanks

Enmity generation for the following spells has been adjusted:
Sleep / Sleep II / Dispel / Blind / Blind II / Bind

Whoopsie! Unless you intend to imply that SS/Blink is better than Utsusemi all of a sudden . . .

So yeah, any RDM I see claiming they should be on a melee DD level with NIN is going to get called out for the sheer idiocy of the statement.

Nobody has said that we should. Ketaru and Mageo are saying that, given good enough gear, we are.

So, what was that about being an "angsty, defensive prick" again?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

First of all, I don't think people necessarily approach Abyssea as something analogous to a colibri party; maybe they should (aside from bringing food!), if the mobs are really a complete joke, but if they treat it more like Dynamis or other endgame zones where letting the DD tank with their faces gets them killed pretty darn quick, then they would have a reason to keep on their enmity sets and try to recapture hate before someone gets their face ripped off, while cursing out the DDs that WS early without TA.

My Dynamis LS currently use PLD/NIN as main /assist. PLD isn't tank in (Zilart) Dynamis, either.

WAR/NIN can also work as main /assist, but that PLD player is fast and accurate at picking targets (yes, very important!). We do not use DD/THF in general--I specifically ask all DDs to use /NIN, but one new player last run didn't get the memo, yet.

(We started off with PLD/WARs back in Febuary and with me yelling at THFs to use TA+WS instead of SA+WS--then again, we were also once a /shout LS. Things changed. heh.)

(including DDs being responsible for watching their own hate or TAing their WS on someone who can take it), but if Abyssea isn't like that, then it isn't, and you should adapt tactics accordingly.

On PLD/NIN (as DD) or SAM/NIN, I WS'ed as early in the fight as I could. 1. Less issues with taking kill blows as new comer while doing minimal TP holding. 2. Hoped other DDs would WS earlier as well, to speed up kills.

WS'ing early and blink tank until someone else gets the monster's attention is the best way to deal with Abyssea monsters in exp setting, IMO. Especially with PLD/WARs as main /assist--no reason to let monsters beat them up. (I prefer PLD/NIN as main /assist over PLD/WAR, but seen that happen exactly once in Abyssea.)

*That's* why you need to know back in town that you're coming as DD -- because mixed DW builds rely on DW, so you have to choose SJ accordingly. No PLD/WAR can duplicate your DD build regardless of what gear they have access to.

As I said, I'd ask for PLD/NIN only, if I were in charge--PLD/WAR not wanted. Either DW or Sword+Shield is fine, as long as the PLD is doing reasonably well blink tanking during that period between engaging a monster to some DD using WS.

And, geared as DD, of course. (There are actually a few shields designed for DD--I favor the Sentinel Shield myself.)

* * *

Ultimately, it's about everyone being useful. Believe it or not, being a good main /assist actually isn't a common skill; I'm fine with using a Sword+Shield PLD/NIN doing 1/3 or 1/4 damage of an average DD, as long as he's doing the main /assist part right. (Would prefer better, of course, but a fast main /assist is very nice when combined with a good puller.)

Full turtle gear really isn't that useful to PLD/NIN in this situation.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Ketaru and Mageo are saying that, given good enough gear, we are.

Clearly you need to work on your reading comprehension.

A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise

Any clearer? Ketaru brought the subject of superior gear up in his response to me but considering I was responding to MrMageo, who never stipulated that, it has zero relevance to the discussion.