How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

[wrongfeifong]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

Uh?

They are balancing out the class as we speak either way, with or without your approval.

While on a personal level, i felt PVP is completely balance in this game if not ballista nor brenner would never been released. No class here is no one man army and you are free to play other class.

Unlike other MMORPG FFXI offer class change, you aren't force to stuck as a brd to PVP, you can change. Mind i add that, you still play your respective "party" system in PVP. having a BRD + DD is always better then a DD + DD right? Crowd control and buff with little debuff.

There is no forcing in PVP, have you even play brenner and ballista at all? All it does is screw BLM up because they can't switch gear.

are FFXI'er all "no PVP" players because FFXI never focus on PVP and you don't want PVP as an element in this game? Are you one of the people that ever consider quitting FFXI at all ? I am sure you are because once you finish missions and does all endgame, what is left for you to do?

To be very honest, this is something i keep seeing, whenever FFXI mention on any other forum about PVP, posters will say "FFXI is not a PVP game and never should be, it is a game about story and grinding"

Who can tell me they are actually not having fun in Ballista and brenner when it was first introduce? Unless you are a brd.
My idea was just expanding PVP away from Ballista or Brenner? I really don't see why all the poster above are so defensive in this. I am not even the developer or anything, i want to see what possibility everyone can imagine up with FFXI.

[Takelli]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

My idea was just expanding PVP away from Ballista or Brenner? I really don't see why all the poster above are so defensive in this. I am not even the developer or anything, i want to see what possibility everyone can imagine up with FFXI.

Not many people like PvP that play FFXI. There are so many things that can happen with it. Like greiving players if its open PvP, or others who will bitch and whine if they get killed by anyone (Those are the ones that usually suck at the game anyways, and bitch and whine when they miss a WS, or soemthing). They need it more balanced, but if they balance it, they would change the job itself, and make the jobs unbalanced for PvP balance.

Who can tell me they are actually not having fun in Ballista and brenner when it was first introduce? Unless you are a brd.

I did have fun, but after a bit it became pointless IMO. No one really did it. The time schedual sucks ass. And its not really balanced for more jobs. So either you are tagetting some one who cant really harm you, and you can harm them, or soem one targets you , and they can harm you but you cant harm them.

To be very honest, this is something i keep seeing, whenever FFXI mention on any other forum about PVP, posters will say "FFXI is not a PVP game and never should be, it is a game about story and grinding"

I would like there to be PvP in the game. Just a different way. With a full war thats constantly going on, and is balanced. Like utsusemi. It will be changed slightly (For the PvP zone only!), to make it more balanced, but stay the same for normal play.

But, FFXI is not a game to PvP in. If you want to PvP, go play WoW. Even then, they arent really balanced either.

There is no forcing in PVP, have you even play brenner and ballista at all? All it does is screw BLM up because they can't switch gear.

... Actually. Gear swapping wasn't supposed to be the main thing to min/max your character. They can change gear, just that they will have a penalty. Just like trying to change gear in the middle of a fight. Would you really try changing your pants in the middle of a fight? I didn't think so.

Blms can sleep the target, or bind them then change their gear, then nuke away. There is no real penalty on them. Also, most jobs don't really have a resistance to a certain element so no matter what, they will be the bosses of nukeing.

Mind i add that, you still play your respective "party" system in PVP. having a BRD + DD is always better then a DD + DD right? Crowd control and buff with little debuff.

Not all the time. If there is a whm, or a brd, they will be the first target. If the person can pop a poiosn potion before they are slept, they can kill teh brd or whm because sleep wont affect them.

Unlike other MMORPG FFXI offer class change, you aren't force to stuck as a brd to PVP, you can change

... In other games you can change your character. You still have to grind your other character or jobs if you wish to play a second job or character.

[cidbahamut]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

have you not been paying attention to FFXI the past few updates... are are you blind?

Nope, I'm quite aware of what they're doing. How does that equate to me being agreeing with it or being ok with people encouraging SE to flail about more?

Balancing 20 jobs for PvE is a daunting task on its own, but try balancing it for PvP on top of that and you have a developer's nightmare. The results will not be pleasant for anyone involved.

[wrongfeifong]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

That is why i don't like how everyone thinks, Do you believe an hockey game players get equal treatment? I mean the goalie have the rights to take the puck and run up and score some points? Do you believe the defense players have the right to run up and take the puck and shoot at every opportunity?

Team play is important in PVP. Even the most up-to-dated PVP focus MMORPG isn't "balance" enough for every class to kill every other classes.

You are a bard, you are expected to be protected in PVP because in return you are giving other power-up and crowd-controls.

You are a pld, you are expected to do little dmg, not casting a Burst II or anything.

You are a whm, you are expected to "heal" and keep yourself alive with your "cure". You aren't out here casting Burst II either.

There is no balance PVP game in this world. The only balanced game is a game where everyone play 1 same character with 1 single skill.

Hey even superman isn't perfect and so is batman, nothing in this world should be equal.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

There are more balanced PVP experiences out there, it has much to do with them not having everyone be able to go /NIN.

Then you have the counterstrike mentality float in. The rules have to remain open to be considered "fair" but the second you go uncapped, there is no fairness. Restrict items or subjobs and people start complaining.

And a RDM/NIN will think uncapped with items restricted is fair. That's because Silence will no longer be a equalizer against them. They can just silence all other mages and they have to take it, while they can put up shadows to their hearts content. BLUs using Self Destruct will be considered "cheaters. If subjobs are restricted, then BLM and RNG "cheat" too.

Then there are the twits who want to cry over being killed when AFK. Really. Or those that "claim" others as their PvP target

If uncapped with items allowed - the only real way to keep it balanced at all - most people won't bother showing up because they don't like caps.

Is it any surprise why no one does PvP? There's all these bullshit politics to wade through before we even get to the real balance issues.

[DakAttack]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

There's a lot to be considered when designing a balanced PvP experience, and there's already a handful of games out there that have taken measures to make progress in those areas. I think WoW is one great source, even though many consider their PvP to be complete fail, but there's still a lot to be learned there. MW2 is also a good source due to their system of progression, and it basically being a PvP game.

I think it's important to consider the difference in level where one player is completely powerless against another. This would help determine level brackets or caps. If you're in a game where each level brings no quantifiable increase in power then this isn't necessary.

Venue must also be considered. One map might provide an overpowering advantage due to position, which may tilt the advantage to a single person or team. The map might create focal points where interesting combat occurs, or it may be completely scatterbrained and create chaos. There may even be glitches in the environment that allow players an unfair advantage.

There's a lot to consider in general, and much more when thinking specifically to one game.

[cidbahamut]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

That is why i don't like how everyone thinks, Do you believe an hockey game players get equal treatment? I mean the goalie have the rights to take the puck and run up and score some points? Do you believe the defense players have the right to run up and take the puck and shoot at every opportunity?

Team play is important in PVP. Even the most up-to-dated PVP focus MMORPG isn't "balance" enough for every class to kill every other classes.

You are a bard, you are expected to be protected in PVP because in return you are giving other power-up and crowd-controls.

You are a pld, you are expected to do little dmg, not casting a Burst II or anything.

You are a whm, you are expected to "heal" and keep yourself alive with your "cure". You aren't out here casting Burst II either.

There is no balance PVP game in this world. The only balanced game is a game where everyone play 1 same character with 1 single skill.

Hey even superman isn't perfect and so is batman, nothing in this world should be equal.

Your posts make my head hurt and fuel my hatred of humanity.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

A balanced PVP system that is fair and reasonable is a pipe dream.

Now that we've killed the big pink elephant in the room, MY NAME IS LEEROOY JENKINS WHOOOO ~~~~-runs into the room, gunz blazing, griefin ALL who oppose MUH-~~~~

PVP is all about who has played the most hours (and has no job or gf), who has friends that they dual/team with (that also have no lives or gfs) and who has read the most forums for all the h4x. Oh, and don't forget trash talk. PVP is all about trash talk.

Whose trying to reinvent the wheel in this thread!?!?!!1111

[DakAttack]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

A balanced PVP system that is fair and reasonable is a pipe dream.

Now that we've killed the big pink elephant in the room, MY NAME IS LEEROOY JENKINS WHOOOO ~~~~-runs into the room, gunz blazing, griefin ALL who oppose MUH-~~~~

PVP is all about who has played the most hours (and has no job or gf), who has friends that they dual/team with (that also have no lives or gfs) and who has read the most forums for all the h4x. Oh, and don't forget trash talk. PVP is all about trash talk.

Whose trying to reinvent the wheel in this thread!?!?!!1111

Drugs.

Stop doing them.

A well informed team will do well at anything, if they work together.

[Dux]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

For me the reasons why the FFXI community in general doesn't want large amounts of new PVP material is pretty straight forward.

1) FFXI was originally created and designed to be a co-operative PVE MMORPG and as such it attracted a crowd of people who are by and large wanting to play co-operatively PVE. Along the way S.E. have add small PVP elements to keep a small minority of players happy without upsetting their main player base. If you can not accept that you are the minority (probably less than 5% of all subscribers) and that you are playing a game that by its very design does not support large scale PVP then I'm afraid no amout of debate here will solve whatever problems you believe FFXI or it's community has.

2) Given FFXI poor character customisation capability and the massive dependance of gear to influence the performance of your character there is an inherant danger that changing this predoiminantly PVE game and re-balancing it to be PVE+PVP will fundamentally change the characteristics of the jobs such that the strategies to take down end game bosses will be affected or even broken, something that in the mindset of FFXI is significantly more important that any PVP activities S.E. provide.

With the above in mind I am surprised that people can not grasp why PVP is met with such resistance in FFXI or am I just way off the mark here?

[wrongfeifong]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

I really don't want to carry this point to every pages but really,

What are you expecting to be balance out then?

Now from what i read 9 out of 10 (i am the 10th) poster keep their point focus on "balanced PVP on a PVE game"

Let's switch the topic here, what would you consider balance PVP changes that need to fix into FFXI?

my main argue point here is:

1. FFXI does not need balance PVP, the reason it simple, you can sub whatever you want, you can play whatever you want. There is no limit unlike tradition MMORPG where you are a "healer" you stuck as a healer, i can see why developper will look into "let's balance PVP so players do not have play a completely new account and re-grind all the raids just to have fun"

2. Let's not forget, FFXI have PVP already. It is minor, but Ballista and Brenner are forms of PVP. Let's not forget about it ok? When SE release these 2 games, they are prepare for any "adjustment demands" from players since if FFXI isn't balance, people will complain. But hardly every any complains about these PVP balances instead the game itself is the main focus. (the penalty and setting).

It looks to me most of you do not understand the mechanics of games instead.

Let's look at the classes itself, please tell me specifically to whatever you can think of, how class can be balance out for PVP instead of telling me "ffxi need to sacrifice PVE for PVP".

Just don't tell me something like "corsair need a laser beam add in to be able to kill"

If you can even give me one simple "idea" that i agree on, i would give you "thanks" and say "i give up" because from what i know every class in this game can kill any other class with a little skill.

The reason i want this is because i see FFXI have great potential as a PVP games with its current system. It would be nice if they can expand it into a more larger scale and less limitation.

[KingOfZeal]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

because from what i know every class in this game can kill any other class with a little skill.

The minute you can prove to me a White Mage sub anything can kill a Samurai, Paladin etc you will get more respect for your arguement.

Here's what you're not understanding it seems:

In this game, there is a heavy party influence; people need to work together to perform tasks and accomplish goals. Majority of the abilities and traits of the jobs are worked toward that, from various AoE songs and spells to hate-controlling abilities. PvP as it exists right now (and possibly as it ever could exist) runs against that mentality. You can certainly argue that you can form a party and/or alliance with other people on your team, and really try to make it work, but doing so effectively in medium where the only form of communication is via chat is extremely difficult, if not outright impossible. Thus, most people tend to opt out of the teamwork strategy and go with a fend-for-yourself strategy. Certainly, if a WHM sees someone on their team in need of a cure, they will cure them. But, they don't expect that person to run to and cover their ass while they're getting pummeled on.

Therefore, most people won't come on jobs which are significantly weaker (IE WHM, BRD, etc) unless they can count on active defenses. So, by definition, those jobs are WEAKER than all others. Other jobs, such as SAM, BLU, NIN, SCH, will be naturally STRONGER. If you have a tug-of-war contest between a WEAK group and a STRONG group, what do you get? An UNBALANCED game and environment. No amount of new shoes or different shirts (which can be translated into subjobs when talking about FFXI) will change the fact that the STRONGER of the groups will overcome the WEAKER. Yes, there are 20 jobs, but when put 1v1, the bracket results will NOT look like the elemental wheel, with job A comfortably over job B, job B over job C, and job C over job A. Instead, you will more see jobs ABCD on roughly equal level (each can kill each other), and all those over jobs EFGHI... etc.

Now that supposedly you know there is this significant difference in power between jobs, the question is how do you offset that difference? From what I can tell, you're the one who is insistent on making a PvP comeback, but yet you're requiring us to come up with solutions? Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's generally not how idea development works.

Also, I would argue that current PvP implementation in FFXI is not true PvP. By my definition (which to me is the only one that matters unless you can argue it otherwise), PvP means "One person against every other person". Ballista and Brenner, unless it's with two people, uses one team of people against another team of people. In which case, it's more appropriate to use PvE -- the environment just happens to be made up of more people. They still act collectively against you.


Honestly, I don't care for PvP in most implementations, whether it's FFXI or WoW style. About the only kind of PvP I (along with many, many others) participate in is the standard "e-peen" PvP, which to me is still more about improving yourself than figuring out who is better one on one. If I'm on Bard, I couldn't care less if you can beat me on your SAM -- it proves very little and doesn't help me except to fight boredom.
[/rant]

[Takelli]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

If you can even give me one simple "idea" that i agree on, i would give you "thanks" and say "i give up" because from what i know every class in this game can kill any other class with a little skill.

... First of all. Its jobs.. Not classes. This isnt WoW we are talking about.


Secondly... If you think that, then you are out of your mind. No job is that balanced. Brds can not kill every other class with out any form of help. If a brd was alone in the middle of a battle firled, they would be swarmed by EVERYONE that saw him/her and kill them in an instant. Brds are very squishy. A nin main can take out a brd/nin VERY quickly due to high attack speed, and their shadows. Anything that the bard would throw at them would be absorbed by the shadows, and the nins attack speed would quickly take down the brds shadows, before finishing him with a weapon skill.

A ranger... Rangers can destroy samurais in an instant, but samurais can barely touch a ranger due to their shadow bind skill. They get bound, they are gone.

Whm, Rdm, and Blm. All that you need to do is silence them once, and ANY mele job can take them out.

Dancer... Well... Thats kinda hard mainly because they have high eva, and can take a major amount of abuse before falling.

No job is perfectly balanced where every job can take out every job.

[Ketaru]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

If a brd was alone in the middle of a battle firled, they would be swarmed by EVERYONE that saw him/her and kill them in an instant. Brds are very squishy.

They don't really. They use Horde Lullaby. When one team has a BRD, and one team doesn't, the team that doesn't curses the BRD's existence (if the BRD is any good of course). Not to mention their many Resist Silence traits make them difficult to disable.

[Takelli]

Re: How will FFXI become with real PVP contents!

They don't really. They use Horde Lullaby. When one team has a BRD, and one team doesn't, the team that doesn't curses the BRD's existence (if the BRD is any good of course). Not to mention their many Resist Silence traits make them difficult to disable.

Yes, but don't forget the hole mentality of the entire game being "/NIN ONRY!!!!!" And their shadows will absorb the spell, making it so that the bard can only sleep one at a time.