A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

[Vyuru]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Way to completely miss the point.

Right back at you.

Now go back and read what people have said on the subject of expansion content, challenge, and rewards vs add-on content, challenge, and rewards before posting.

My, how polite.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Its not complete fair to compare all missions on a 1:1 scale.

Rank, CoP and Add-on follow the most similar flow, the only differences being add-ons have no time-based stipulations. They all scale from a low level to a high level. You could actually have a few 65s in your Rank 10 party and do fine, at least based on the Windurst Missions I've done several times over.

RoZ and ToA are 50+, though they are more often perused as 75s straight-up. RoZ requires Rank 6, ToA just requires you talk to Naja, but the fights in general are all high level stuff.

WotG is a mix of ToA and Rank elements. They pulled quests into WotG to advance missions, which only rank 3 stuff did before. CoP farming, too, I suppose if you wish to count the sidequests for that.

A lot of content based around the three nations actually tends to be symmetrical, which is why the content of the add-on isn't too shocking to me. I gotta go back and do something in each or on the path to each nation Even the most basic quests have this symmetry.

If I were to start the game with all expansions from level 1 with no subjob, none of this stuff is coming quickly, so how would I be "buying" the end rewards for the add-ons. Its going to take months to even get around to clearing them. Would you just then be mad I got all the expansions through a collection that was $19.99? Would I have had it too easy considering I had to do subjobs, advanced jobs, other subs, genkais Maat and all the other missions to complete?

[ruffrydasean]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I kinda agree bbqkitten >_>
I'm not sure about RoZ and CoP (partly because i dont remember) but did ToAU have all the missions available from start to finish as well? i think it just feels cheap because its a slightly smaller expansion that we can blow through in one sitting.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

You could actually do the first ToA missions as a level 1 character, so long as you met requirements on another job. The content itself was all 50+ stuff if you want to count Besieged and Assault. It did have JP midnight delays like Rank missions, but without them, yeah, I think you could have blown through all but Alexander in one sitting.

I will concede that Alexander is one of the biggest fights in the game, but after the joke most of the other missions were, it really needed to be a threat. SE was heavily criticized for their ease and had a lot of time to counter that with the last few battles. Doesn't change the fact that all pre-Ghesso is pushover content, though.

I'm sure WotG could see the same. Too early to even say what form it would take, seems like this one will go on until FFXIV is launched. Not that I can begrudge SE for doing so, there's still a lot more they could do with WotG anyway. I'd rather they finish it this time, rather than push out another expansion before all the content is done. Just focus on making the end of WotG strong and the FFXIV stuff, really.

Personally, I think SE got it right the first time with the Rank Mission structure. It has plenty of traveling, a nice mix of level caps and final fights that haven't really suffered too much in the face of power creep. Well, I can't speak for Bastok's, but Sandoria and Windurst seem to follow a similar flow.

If the add-ons had maybe half the time investment and style of a Rank arch - like five ranks - other players would feel better about them.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Rank, CoP and Add-on follow the most similar flow, the only differences being add-ons have no time-based stipulations. They all scale from a low level to a high level.

Rank, ZM, CoP, ToA, and WotG missions progress you through expansion content whereas the addons force you to revisit exisiting zones while imparting a level restriction to prolong the acquisition of the item at the end. The only two battlefields in ACP are level 75 capped compared to the slew of fights in CoP which you could essentially progress through as you levelled.

Let's not forget the one glaring thing people seem to forget, the rewards were announced before the addon was sold. No other MMO company to my knowledge has ever sold an addon/expansion and said, "Your money is buying this item!" Of course, there will be people who legitimately bought them for the content, I'd be interested in knowing how many of those were satisfied with what they found. That doesn't detract from the fact FFXI is a gear-centric game with a massive percentage of the playerbase who resort to buying gil, S-E just played to that greed and lined their pockets accordingly.

Not sure how many people have played EQ2 but a number of years ago they released some addons. While they were a little more expensive ($13.95) than their S-E equivalents they differed in as much as they offered entirely new zones and adversaries. Here, let me dig out the details and allow people to make a comparison:

The Bloodline Chronicles
The Bloodline Chronicles is the first Adventure Pack for EverQuest II. It introduced new areas, new items and new monsters.
Five new areas, including the Tombs of Night, the Crypt of T'haen and D'Morte Burial Chambers.
Experience new instances for soloists, large and small groups and raids.
new creatures such as Vampires, Hellhounds, Fleshgoyles and Revenants.
new quests with different storylines for good and evil players alike.
ways to interact with the environment, including destructible walls
themed content, including vampiric magic-based spells and items.
Discover new Neriak items for players of all levels.

The Splitpaw Saga
The Splitpaw Saga is the second Adventure Pack for EverQuest II. It introduced new areas, new items and new monsters. The adventure pack allows characters to use moveable planks, crates and barrels in a series of event-based zones where they will face gnolls opponents designed for players between 20th and 50th level.
12 different solo, group and raid instances.
2 new dungeons with twelve additional instanced zones.
Dozens of scenario-based quests.
Foes scale to match the players' levels.

The Fallen Dynasty
The Fallen Dynasty is the third adventure pack. It introduced new areas, new items, new monsters and quest lines. It added new content for characters levels 55 through 70:
Seven areas to explore
New solo and small group quests lines, as well as heroic and epic encounters for levels 55 through 70.
Brand new collection and tome quests
new artisan rewards that assist in the crafting process
Many new items, including weapons designed in the Fallen Dynasty theme

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

No other MMO company to my knowledge has ever sold an addon/expansion and said, "Your money is buying this item!" Of course, there will be people who legitimately bought them for the content"

SOE launches Station Cash microtransaction system in EQ and EQII - Massively

Microtransactions for gear. This is exactly what you claim SE is doing, and yet, there is no direct purchase of game gear for money.

Looks like you need to get to know your MMOs better.

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I think that's a bit overly harsh, considering the way level caps worked until a few months ago. Finding people (let alone equipped people) to fight SL (or Dark Spark and AF3 NMs, which have the same issue) would be pretty challenging if they had to function under CoP-style level caps. I'm not convinced it would have been better. People would have taken that content more seriously, but they also would be more likely to get hung up on it and frustrated. Remember how popular Eco-Warrior has always been?

Rank 2-3 fight, Capped. Rank 5-1 fight, Capped. Why are there no other capped fights? And not a single one in all of the RotZ mission line. Things like DS and AF NMs have nothing to do with this discussion because they're not part of the mission storyline. Very few quests are ever capped as most don't need to be. But an uncapped mission line that was supposed to be difficult to lvl 60-70 people 7 years ago is a joke...to people who played 5 years ago. Nowadays it's something you can bust out in a day. But a few level caps would have actually made them hard. Also, the Eco-Warrior quest is a terrible example because the biggest problem with that isn't that it's capped, it's the fact that if you accept it in one city, you can't do it for any other city until you finish what you started. It makes it an absolute bitch to gather people for it when it's otherwise a pretty fun low level event.

Champions Online is doing this sort of thing, too. Lots of games are doing it. PS3 Version of Arkham Asylum lets you be the Joker, which isn't possible in the 360 version (yet).

Slightly off topic but: The Joker content will remain PS3 exclusive due to Sony's deal with DC and it was also completely free like all the other Batman DLC.

Again, vocal minority.

Except there's more people complaining then praising.

The benefit is only for the people with no time to invest in sky, but its not going to come close to sating the demand for Haidate.

The benefit is also for every single job who can't equip Haidate. Which is quite a few.

For those with less time to play (let's just repeat this for emphasis), less time to play, less time to play it gives a satisfactory piece of gear. Satisfactory. Satisfactory is never the best, but for those with less time to invest it does the job.

For those with less time to play, they give content with terrible stories, numerous fetch quests and time sinks and a final fight that takes a stacked party of very specific jobs to win? That's more of a kick to the balls to people with less time to play then anything else.

I don't see the poor design in the BC, I just see people scared of getting SAed. That's nothing new, THFs deal with it all the time. If you can't count your shadows, it deserves to get you and I think its funny. I think the case is what I see as fun you just see as an annoying obstacle to a reward.

No one was saying that fight was "poor" because it's the only decent (but easy) fight in the entire add-on. Btw, SA goes through shadows.

I'm sure you're going to play CoP Defense Force again, but this is casual content designed for people with less time. It shows. A majority has demanded and wanted this - you know, the people thatdon't play FFXI or don't have time to - or SE would not continue releasing the content. We've already established CoP Missions and Sky farming/gods aren't casual friendly. We've even established the common loathing among the hardcore for sky.

I debate how "uncasual friendly" CoP is since I've gone through it multiple times with people who only log on once a week. There are also much more casual friendly mission chains in ToAU and WotG because neither of them feature useless fetch quests, ridiculous time sinks (outside of the JP midnights) and are generally much more entertaining and challenging storylines.

And ranged attacks are not mutually exclusive to RNG and COR. THF, DRK, WAR, SAM also happen to make use of this and anyone can sub /RNG last I checked. Additionally, the ranged attacks aren't even a requirement, as like anything else it can be meleeburned down by MNKs if you play your cards right. MNKs aren't rare.

Wow, so a total of 6 whole jobs can possibly win this fight! Assuming they all play like Rng and Cor. Btw, Thf's ranged damage SUCKS. War's Ranged abilities SUCK. Dark's ranged attacks SUCK. The first two I know from experience. And the only way to melee burn this fight is to have 2-3 Rdm chainstun the crystal into submission long enough for your DDs to burn their way through it. So again, it's still stacking the party with the same job. No other final boss fight requires that.

Personally, I think SE got it right the first time with the Rank Mission structure. It has plenty of traveling, a nice mix of level caps and final fights that haven't really suffered too much in the face of power creep. Well, I can't speak for Bastok's, but Sandoria and Windurst seem to follow a similar flow.

...err, what? There's all of two level capped fights in all three of the nation story lines, and both of them are stupid simple and pre-RotZ. And as I said before, full expansions can get away with making you travel because they're making you go to their brand new zones. Add-ons don't have that need so there's no reason to force traveling on you, especially if it's just to facilitate a freaking fetch quest. Also, Rank missions are stupidly simple nowadays because players, even of the old school jobs, are excessively overpowered compared to way back when, so the "power creep" does play a major part in ranked missions.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Ziero, I'm declaring DeMeyer's Second Law on you.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

SOE launches Station Cash microtransaction system in EQ and EQII - Massively

Microtransactions for gear. This is exactly what you claim SE is doing, and yet, there is no direct purchase of game gear for money.

Looks like you need to get to know your MMOs better.

Looks like you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Microtransactions =/= addon/expansion. Furthermore, when those addons were released the microtransactions were still two or three years away. When they were eventually implemented a large chunk of people quit in protest.

[Balfree]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

There there you bunch of effeminate hairless apes.

There is more than enough shit on my forum walls.

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Ziero, I'm declaring DeMeyer's Second Law on you.

You have fun declaring useless internet "laws" at me, I'm too busy tearing apart pathetic attempts to debate arguments that use miss-information and twist words into things they were never intended to mean.

What exactly are you looking for? Something new and breath-taking and expansive and big? That wasn't these additions. I don't know, I wasn't somehow set up with an expectation that we were getting big huge new expansions. It's revisting old places with new, small storylines. My expectations weren't as shattered as yours. Sorry.

I can tell you for a fact that I don't agree with the way these mini-expansions are set up but I *do* know exactly what I want. I want a strong, engaging story line featuring multiple (re. more then two), increasingly difficult yet interesting BC fights that directly assist to move the story forward while it cuts out useless fetch quests and time sinks from the main mission. Any actual fetch quests or time sinks could instead be used as side quests which could be completed once a week to allow you to repeat said BCNMs for tangible rewards (such as the treasure box system) to add replayability to the expansion. All of which, mind you, would be able to be beaten using a pretty basic party set up of tank, healer, support x3 DD of any flavor.

It's not hard to do, and it's not asking a lot. I'm not asking for new zones, new jobs or even new mobs. I'm asking for a mini-expansion that I'm paying for to actually contain fun and engaging content, not time sinks and frustratingly cheap boss fights.

Apparently you missed that bit. Or if you want a shorter answer, I want an add on expansion that's supposed to be nothing but story and mission to actually have a decent story and fun missions. I didn't buy ACP for the gear, I bought it because SE has been getting better and better with every expansion at telling a story and giving us fun and engaging missions. ACP is the exact opposite of fun and engaging. It's time sinks and *a* broken fight.

You discredit and cheapen the precariousness of that little section of Zilart. If Ash Dragon who was TS/TS

He's not True anything.

Of course, those of us lucky enough to have started from DAY 1 that got to grow with the game have the pleasure of understanding the concept of game progression. There's nothing wrong with the game having grown out of itself. That still didn't mean that there was something terribly wrong with the missions. Your logic is just silly. There was a time and place for everything. To make a backwards comparison unfortunately limits your perception. To bad it's one of those "you kinda had to be there," to apperciate the brevity. Since you didn't I can see where you're skewed idea comes from. A shame...

You seem to have misunderstood something. I've been playing this game for a good 6 years, long before CoP came out. I was a very casual player who leveled very slowly, going back and forth between two jobs at the same time while making sure both of them kept up to date, high quality gear. While my friends all rushed through the rank missions and then got hand held through RotZ, I did things at my own pace and took my time and refused to leech missions. I *was* there, and even back then RotZ was seen as a cakewalk of a mission line that can be done in a day. It's why I didn't even bother to start it until I was lvl 70, so I could at least pull my own weight. But as you said, there is a time and a place for everything, and back then RotZ and it's style of game play had it's place. Nowadays, after coming so far, going back to that style of gameplay is an absolutely horrid idea. In other words, the RotZ style of gameplay worked for RotZ because that was all we had back then. But seeing as we have so much more now, why in the hell would we want to go back to it for these add-ons? That time and place has come and gone.

Broken because you couldn't find the right type of job that handled the situation best? Or broken because you wanted the fight to fit your specific needs and certain set tools available to you? This is kinda one of those, "deal with the hand that life dealt ya" issues. Just because you'd always had balanced set ups in the past, doesn't necessarily mean its always going to be that case. In this situation, Squeenix "turned the heat up" so to speak or rather "threw you a curve ball." You're complaining about getting thrown a curveball?

Broken because you need to stack your party with 2-4 of a single specific job to have any hope of winning. Broken because the majority of the classes in this game are *absolutely useless* in the final fight of an expansion storyline. When you have casual players and people who don't have a dozen+ jobs leveled, it's *much* harder to stack up on the same class. Having a balanced final fight means you can take people with all different jobs and have a shot at winning. I shouldn't need 3 Rng or 3 Smns or 3 of any one class to win a final BC fight.

I mean honestly, I don't see any ground for a basis of complaint when you simply find the jobs you need to perform the task. It's not like you can't find the jobs.

My grounds for complaint come in when both of my, and many other people's jobs, are literally useless in this fight. No other final boss, not RotZ, not CoP, not ToAU, had a boss that absolutely excluded so many other classes. I shouldn't have to "find" 3 of any one class, I should be able to take a balanced party and fight an enemy that's challenging and entertaining.

Tell it to THF, PUP, BLM, PLD, DNC and SMN. The game is just elitist as ever, the jobs that got favored just got shifted around. With some initiative this can be overcome, but it doesn't make the balance of power in EXP or endgame any less frustrating.

The players are the elitist, not the game. Any of those classes can be more then useful in any of the current mission lines final fights, add ons excluded. Mission fights are neither EXP or Endgame, they don't say "no you can't come" because of your job. Some classes may not be optimal, but with a balanced party you should be able to get through them in tact. With ACPs final fight, you can't do that. Is it really that hard of a fact for you to grasp?

So what example in early missions are you talking about here? A cutscene or the 90 lbs. wusses that get tossed at you early on? There's no rush to CoP til you get in a Promy for the first time. The first ToA mission is no less than the things you just slammed as less interesting. I just sneak, invis and avoid trus sight until I collect a staging point, then the missions that follow are a bunch of cutscenes with some pushover mob to fight.

WotG was a slog just to get missions started. Get spit out in one of the zones around Jeuno, collect maws, track your way back to your nation of choice sneaking, invising and avoiding true sight mobs along the way.

You underestimate that off putting feeling of traveling through a place that looks so familiar, but feels so alien. Climbing Delkfutt's is the same at lvl 30 as it is at lvl 75. I know, I've done both before. In fact I even did that "climb Delkfutt's at 30 bit myself, LONG before ACP or level caps, while helping a bunch of other mid-30 friends on their rank 4 mission. It was kinda fun, but mainly because it was a new zone to them. Chances are, anyone doing it for ACP has been there...dozens of times. Meanwhile, stepping foot in Past Xarc...it's a whole new world where true sight blood red Taurus will tear you face off and a massive Dragon is flying about ready to swoop down on unprepared adventurers. Hell, just zoning into Sauromange S for the first time, seeing a DC mob to a 75 and running into a MASSIVE WALL that you were sure wasn't there before is a bit off putting. Hell, you just completely wrote off how eerie the Promy's are or how creepy and epic Arrapango reef is. At least those areas actually do have true aggro mobs.

So, you tell me where that moment of "awe" happens, or get your "adrenaline" going with ACP and MKT happens? Because I have yet to see any. Even the first damn CS in ACP is boring as hell, and that's a terrible way to start a story.

Only Alexander has ever required a balanced setup and that has less to do with Alexander than it does his little BLU buddy.

Because Promethia doesn't have the ability to throw up shields that nullify all Magic or Melee Dmg, mirite?

Because Eald'narche's first form isn't weaker to melee then it is magic, while his second form gains a 75% physical damage reduction while being incredibly weak to magic damage, mirite?

Hell, even the freaking Shadowlord has that ability to make melees all but useless while taking extra damage from magic attacks. So if you tried to fight him when he was actually strong (i.e. 50 cap) you would need to have a balanced party to actually win.

Seriously, the ACP Add-on in every way shape and form is absolutely horrible content. It's bad for casuals, it's bad for hardcore players and it's only redeeming factor is the shiney at the end of the stick. At this point I don't even care about that body piece any more, I just don't want my 10 bucks to go to waste.

p.s. I apologize for the double sized rant, didn't get to come on at all during the weekend and apparently missed a LOT of comments I couldn't just ignore.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

It's cool Ziero. You hated ACP. I certainly don't care enough to try to change your mind to like it.

I personally thought it was fun and loved the end items. I really had no problems with it. I just think it's funny how people complain about it. I think it's even funnier how people complain about the final battle. But eh, not everyone can be pleased. It's super funny how people list all these flaws and it just wasn't all that bad that people are making it out to be.

I'd love to do RotZ, CoP, ToAU, & ACP again. I thought about it on my PL account; a friend just joined FFXI this weekend so he may want to do them also til FFXIV comes out. IM SURE THERE'RE BEEN TON OF BITCHIN THERE TOO WHEN THAT COMES OUT. XD

Thanks for dispelling a myth about Ash Dragon I was always told, 'preciate it. The evasion is certainly noted. I'll leave you to your cheese and wine but take this box of Kleenex. kthxbai

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

And I love how you try to play off "all these flaws" as not being as bad as they actually are because you kind of enjoyed the end reward. I mean, people are welcomed to like whatever they want, but there's no way anyone can honestly claim that ACP was actually good content.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I think it's even funnier how people complain about the final battle.

I think your perception may have been different if you only had ninja or dancer at 75 as opposed to red mage, bard, black mage, and ranger.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

And I love how you try to play off "all these flaws" as not being as bad as they actually are because you kind of enjoyed the end reward. I mean, people are welcomed to like whatever they want, but there's no way anyone can honestly claim that ACP was actually good content.

You silly little man. I said once before that I enjoyed the storyline content, didn't get broken to pieces over the item hunting (which did not break my entertainment fun barrier resolve), and liked the BC battles. I thought getting sneak attacked by a Goblin was hillarious. Jee I don't know. It didn't bother me.

You hate it. Great. But just because you hate it and you think it's flawed, doesn't mean "it is." So we're both right. Yay. /die

I think your perception may have been different if you only had ninja or dancer at 75 as opposed to red mage, bard, black mage, and ranger.

Or, I could level up the specific job for the situation, such as when getting Diabolos as an avatar use to require all BLMS and a RDM/DRK, to which I specifically leveld RDM so I could go do that fight. I didn't whine like a little baby about it. I didn't NEED the summon right then and there either. I was 0/8 or so going with a meleeing group. It didn't work. So I got the right job and it did. Just because certain jobs worked better at it, didn't mean it was broke. But hey, your perception is your reality. I'm just saying I was able to deal with the situation and roll with the punches.

If you or other ppl can't and feel the need to whine about it. Be my guest. Thank god for forums huh? w w w