A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

[Mog]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

but while most are adequate, they do not directly compete with endgame gear.

I'm going to have to chime in here and disagree with this statement. (I'm assuming you're talking about ACP bodies?)

The ACP body is awesome for pld. What makes it really nice is not only the enmity, but the fast cast. With the exception of the iron ram body which came out recently, it was awesome for enmity (which is awesome for paladin). The only exception is the hydra body, which is really difficult to get unless you're in a consistent dynamis tavnazia group.

Another good choice is the Mirke for ranger, which when augmented with rng atk and snapshot and coupled with the Zha'go helmet is without a doubt the best ranger TP body piece (unless you're really lacking accuracy).

So while yeah, some choices don't match up to what's out there already (ie Redingote vs Genie weskit), there are some really nice choices that trump everything else, which is more than just "adequate". Even if you're not talking about ACP, there are still some choices for the legs that make them kick-ass as hell.

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As for the movement speed discussion, for the casual player, if there's a choice between someone starting (or joining) a sky group and possibly waiting a very long time for crimson pants, camping tiamat for gaiters, buying or killing ixion for hermes sandals synths, or doing an expansion for the legs, I think he would choose to do the expansion.

Some people just don't have the time to do these NM's and the expansion would be a better choice. Other people are more dedicated, and thus should camp and farm what they're trying to get.

It all depends on the player.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

The helm is apparently one of the best WS helms in the game also from what I've read also.

[Mog]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

The helm is apparently one of the best WS helms in the game also from what I've read also.

Yeah, this too. The ranger helm is ridiculous.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I'm going to have to chime in here and disagree with this statement. (I'm assuming you're talking about ACP bodies?)

The ACP body is awesome for pld. What makes it really nice is not only the enmity, but the fast cast. With the exception of the iron ram body which came out recently, it was awesome for enmity (which is awesome for paladin). The only exception is the hydra body, which is really difficult to get unless you're in a consistent dynamis tavnazia group.

Another good choice is the Mirke for ranger, which when augmented with rng atk and snapshot and coupled with the Zha'go helmet is without a doubt the best ranger TP body piece (unless you're really lacking accuracy).

I'm not saying they're not good pieces, I'm saying they aren't all there is.

I have the Mirke Wardecors for my RNG with Snapshot and Ranged attack. It is our best TP body piece, but its not an an end-all for my RNG, either. I'm still better off with an Osode for WS and potentially my MND build as well.

I haven't seen much DPS testing to compare the DoT between the two on a MND build with Crossbow so that's still very much up in the air. I stand to gain a lot from Mirke on all ranged DPS, just not sure about the holy bolt build in relation to it.

As for the movement speed discussion, for the casual player, if there's a choice between someone starting (or joining) a sky group and possibly waiting a very long time for crimson pants, camping tiamat for gaiters, buying or killing ixion for hermes sandals synths, or doing an expansion for the legs, I think he would choose to do the expansion.

Some people just don't have the time to do these NM's and the expansion would be a better choice. Other people are more dedicated, and thus should camp and farm what they're trying to get.

It all depends on the player.

And I think that's fine, I'm just saying there are other and potentially better options. I'm actually one of those people that would rather watch paint dry than touch sky ever again, or most of endgame for that matter. Its not that I'm not up to snuff for endgame, I've just lost my patience with the drama that comes with it.

The way I see it, these rewards and the content are for the more casual player anyway. These are not overpowered endgame items, but they're certainly nice and meant to conform to your style of play.

The whole problem with this discussion has been its been put under than "hardcore endgame" microscope - a problem that is rather epidemic in FFXI. Endgame/hardcore players think everything should be tailored for them and it is clearly not the case with this content at all. Whenever power is granted to the more casual audience or developers try different things, its always the hardcore that somehow take offense to it.

Really if you haven't seen some of the recent discussions of Modern Warfare 2, its like holding up a mirror to this discussion.

[Karinya]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

some people are just being extremely negative here.

They find that more fun than climbing Delkfutt's Tower while level capped. There's no accounting for taste.

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I find it funny that these so much vehement aruging going on about this topic though. It's bordering on the whole attitude of "I hate this game but I'm still playing it and paying my monthly fee" mentality. I'm finding that rather sophmoric. Oh well... I really don't like having to pay out to SE, but, because I'm such a fan of the genre and MMO's, I'm doing it. I guess that's where I'm finding my worth at. This whole concept depends on your perception (which is your reality) I suppose.

I never said anything about hating FFXI in general. I love the rest of the game, CoP, ToAU, WotG, they were all great expansions to me. They all came with storylines full of in depth, epic tales with interesting characters and enjoyable boss fights. It's the mini-expansions which I greatly dislike. Because, content wise, these things are closer to the archaic RotZ style of gameplay we used to see and spent so much time moving away from. There was a better way to do these mini-expansions then to fill them with speed bump fetch quests and painstakingly cheap fights, and they chose not to do that.

The whole problem with this discussion has been its been put under than "hardcore endgame" microscope - a problem that is rather epidemic in FFXI. Endgame/hardcore players think everything should be tailored for them and it is clearly not the case with this content at all. Whenever power is granted to the more casual audience or developers try different things, its always the hardcore that somehow take offense to it.

I don't see anyone putting anything under a "hardcore endgame" microscope. I'm one of the most casual players in this damn game, I don't even do any serious endgame, and I hate the way these things are set up. People aren't complaining about the rewards being too good or too bad, people are complaining that the content just isn't fun. It's tedious and unnecessarily long fetch quests followed by a stupid simple BC capped off by an annoyingly cheap BC. And if you lose that final BC, you're forced to redo a massive time sink of a quest just to try and do it again. In the past two expansions, SE has cut the majority of the fat out of the main storylines and streamlined mission chains to let players get to the heart of the story. In these mini-expansions, SE shoved donuts down their throats making them over-bloated with things most people don't care to wade through. This has nothing to do with endgame, this is all about a severe lack of fun.

Casual players hate farming and fetch quests just as much as hardcore endgamers.

[Malacite]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

The helm is the best WS helm in the game also from what I've read also.

ftfy. STR 4 Attack/Ratk +5 Acc/Racc +10 WS Acc +15. Ain't nothing trumping that save possibly Maat's cap for a SAM/THF or Hectatomb/+1

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I never said anything about hating FFXI in general. I love the rest of the game, CoP, ToAU, WotG, they were all great expansions to me. They all came with storylines full of in depth, epic tales with interesting characters and enjoyable boss fights. It's the mini-expansions which I greatly dislike. Because, content wise, these things are closer to the archaic RotZ style of gameplay we used to see and spent so much time moving away from. There was a better way to do these mini-expansions then to fill them with speed bump fetch quests and painstakingly cheap fights, and they chose not to do that.

That's fine. However, I didn't find RotZ that disinteresting or that painstaking. I actually enjoyed having the goal of getting to sky. It was thrilling when I first opened those doors and heard the music in the hallway and saw the two gods upon the doors openings. Back in those days when everything was new, it was a big achievement to get sky, and I remember the glow of victory after gaining that achievement. Now it just happens in a weekend and it's this big pill to swallow. I say that now after having ran RotZ more than God, because in past shells, wel tried to finish RotZ for new players in about 2 days so we could get everyone to sky; that's about the only real worry or cumbersom feeling I ever had about RotZ.

I don't ever remember feeling annoyed, flustered, or impacted negatively by the ARC. I actually -enjoyed- having to run thru the tunnel past Ash Dragon to make it to that landing spot to get to the jeweled stone. That got the adrenline flowing. I remember lots of good memories and fun; some of it frightening and some if it annoying cuz you'd die, but just because it was annoying didn't mean it sucked; so I really cannot share your lack of enthusiasm or generalized feeling of dismay at RotZ. Sorry.

I just did not have all this negative emotion from ACP that most did; I don't think any of these missions were broken. What's broken is SE offering the entire game for 20$ when I've already shelled out more money than that buying each expansion individually. That's definitely broken lol. But Christ on rollerskates in a leotard, what do I do about that now?

I know. COMPLAIN ON FORUMS!

[Armando]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

They find that more fun than climbing Delkfutt's Tower while level capped. There's no accounting for taste.

Funny to hear that coming from the person that started this debate in the first place by criticizing/mocking people that didn't like the add-ons, without any sort of provocation. We (anti and pro-ACP/AMK factions included) were all having lots of wholesome fun bashing Kailea, deciding whether the tank legs are ugly, and praying for Movement Speed pants during pages 1-4. Everybody else had enough tact to avoid the topics of whether add-ons suck and whether this one will fail as much as the other two are perceived to have failed, because we all knew those discussions can only end in tears, especially when brought up in an abrasive way.

If it weren't for the fact that I was too stupid not to fall for flamebait, I would say you singlehandedly started this.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

I'm not saying they're not good pieces, I'm saying they aren't all there is.

I have the Mirke Wardecors for my RNG with Snapshot and Ranged attack. It is our best TP body piece, but its not an an end-all for my RNG, either. I'm still better off with an Osode for WS and potentially my MND build as well.

I haven't seen much DPS testing to compare the DoT between the two on a MND build with Crossbow so that's still very much up in the air. I stand to gain a lot from Mirke on all ranged DPS, just not sure about the holy bolt build in relation to it.

I also have the same body gear. I love it for my gun. However, that's something I've debated mentally for a while, what you're referring to about DPS, crossbow/hb, and Osode.

I finally buckled down and started runing Nyzul for floors. I primarily use gun because of the huge spike damage. I've always been a fan of spike, simply because you killed the mob faster if 3 or 4 DD all had spike ws's and could bust them out quickly. But, I screwed around with a crossbow in Nyzul and was amazed to find how close in damage I was doing with my gun vs the crossbow and realized that I could bust out more damage if I simply allowed some time to pass. What I mean is, I was hitting maybe 60-700 per ws on gun. When I put on crossbow, it gained tp faster and I noticed it was doing like 3-500; and I even got to use acid bolts. So that made me wonder if I added holy bolts in there, what kind of damage would that do. So, instead of trying to go spike (and since I sunk 8 merits into marksmanship) I figured, I better get my ass an OBow and figure out the MND thing and try a HB build.

I think, as soon as I get the chance, it's going to blow my gun away. Which.. .makes me kinda sad becuz there's nothing I love more than my firestick go boom..... but that build your talking about seems to do the job better....... and Nyzul isn't a place to fvck around in. lol

However, I wonder if missing the -10 MND from Osode would you, over time, miss out on it vs the snapshot. I'd need to sit down and do the math...

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

That's fine. However, I didn't find RotZ that disinteresting or that painstaking. I actually enjoyed having the goal of getting to sky. It was thrilling when I first opened those doors and heard the music in the hallway and saw the two gods upon the doors openings. Back in those days when everything was new

1) Back then, about 7 years ago. The game has grown, evolved and changed since then. Things are different now, and much better.

2) The mini expansions never have that moment of "awe" when you "first open those doors". We've been through all of these doors before. The running around in a full expansion is passable because the whole point is to make you explore all the new zones. Without that, making you run around is just literally giving you the run around.

I don't ever remember feeling annoyed, flustered, or impacted negatively by the ARC. I actually -enjoyed- having to run thru the tunnel past Ash Dragon to make it to that landing spot to get to the jeweled stone. That got the adrenline flowing.

That's all well and good, and was great back then. But the newer expansions had far more to "get the adrenaline going" then having to Sneak past a dragon. And on top of that, ACP doesn't really have anything like that because Delfutts is a zone we've been through a dozen times before.

I can tell you this much though, having done RotZ after getting through most of CoP and starting the first few missions of ToAU, the RotZ style of missions is terribly outdated. RotZ was great when it was new, and everyone was young and innocent, but times change, the game grows and content gets better. You can look back and see that RotZ really wasn't all that great and trying to repeat those types of missions is a step in the wrong direction.

I just did not have all this negative emotion from ACP that most did; I don't think any of these missions were broken.

Try doing the ACP final fight with a basic party set up of tank, healer, support, 3 melee DD. See how long you last. If you have to do a fight which requires you to stack 2-3 of a specific job just to have a chance at winning, it's broken. For a final mission boss fight to have that issue, where all the previous ones actually forced you to have balanced set ups, is just inexcusable.

[Armando]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Also regarding this:

What's broken is SE offering the entire game for 20$ when I've already shelled out more money than that buying each expansion individually. That's definitely broken lol.

It may seem unfair but it's quite practical.
1) SE is looking to start recovering its costs for producing the expansion immediately, not several months after it's been released. By the time the next collection comes out, they've probably covered their expenses already.
2) The game on its own is pretty much worthless these days, and most people that need only the expansion will buy it shortly after it comes out.
3) No one will pay $100+ in software to play an MMO.
4) The general trend for any sort of purchase is that buying in bulk is cheaper.

Regarding RoZ: RoZ had great story, but it's a bit annoying how, like the original missions, they were poorly planned out and didn't take into account future escalation of the player's power and increasing amounts of travel shortcuts. Since most of its content is traveling and uncapped fights, what was once an epic journey can be muscled through by 75's fairly easily these days. I soloed half the non-BC NMs, trio'd the first two BCs, and duo'd everything else up to Divine Might. They're not bad missions, but they've become easy.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

1) Back then, about 7 years ago. The game has grown, evolved and changed since then. Things are different now, and much better.

2) The mini expansions never have that moment of "awe" when you "first open those doors". We've been through all of these doors before. The running around in a full expansion is passable because the whole point is to make you explore all the new zones. Without that, making you run around is just literally giving you the run around.

You bet the game has evolved. I could be none the happier. Thank sweet Jesus and Mary Jane for that.

I was quite interested when I saw the body on other people before I started the mission. When I finally won it I thot it was flippin neato. I was very much awed when we won the BC.

What exactly are you looking for? Something new and breath-taking and expansive and big? That wasn't these additions. I don't know, I wasn't somehow set up with an expectation that we were getting big huge new expansions. It's revisting old places with new, small storylines. My expectations weren't as shattered as yours. Sorry.

That's all well and good, and was great back then. But the newer expansions had far more to "get the adrenaline going" then having to Sneak past a dragon. And on top of that, ACP doesn't really have anything like that because Delfutts is a zone we've been through a dozen times before.

You discredit and cheapen the precariousness of that little section of Zilart. If Ash Dragon who was TS/TS found you, your best bet was to have RR on and run and die by the Firewall. Of course if you raised, the Bomb was there. You had to time it right in the mid part of the hallway if you wanted to "take the hit and run." But who wanted to lose xp? Besides, if you just used a little Metal Gear Solid skills....... Maybe you were not the one having to trapse thru the entirety of IC but was one of the dead waiting to be raised......

And having to get past those Gobs was an exercise in patience. Or did you have someone High Level PL you thru that? lol

I can tell you this much though, having done RotZ after getting through most of CoP and starting the first few missions of ToAU, the RotZ style of missions is terribly outdated. RotZ was great when it was new, and everyone was young and innocent, but times change, the game grows and content gets better. You can look back and see that RotZ really wasn't all that great and trying to repeat those types of missions is a step in the wrong direction.

Of course, those of us lucky enough to have started from DAY 1 that got to grow with the game have the pleasure of understanding the concept of game progression. There's nothing wrong with the game having grown out of itself. That still didn't mean that there was something terribly wrong with the missions. Your logic is just silly. There was a time and place for everything. To make a backwards comparison unfortunately limits your perception. To bad it's one of those "you kinda had to be there," to apperciate the brevity. Since you didn't I can see where you're skewed idea comes from. A shame...

Keep in mind also that Squee were noobs to the whole MMO business back in the latelate 90s and borrowed most of their concepts from EQ, something to which I always abhored, but what could they do. Squee was the new kid on the block and needed inspiration I suppose.

Try doing the ACP final fight with a basic party set up of tank, healer, support, 3 melee DD. See how long you last. If you have to do a fight which requires you to stack 2-3 of a specific job just to have a chance at winning, it's broken. For a final mission boss fight to have that issue, where all the previous ones actually forced you to have balanced set ups, is just inexcusable.

Broken because you couldn't find the right type of job that handled the situation best? Or broken because you wanted the fight to fit your specific needs and certain set tools available to you? This is kinda one of those, "deal with the hand that life dealt ya" issues. Just because you'd always had balanced set ups in the past, doesn't necessarily mean its always going to be that case. In this situation, Squeenix "turned the heat up" so to speak or rather "threw you a curve ball." You're complaining about getting thrown a curveball?

I mean honestly, I don't see any ground for a basis of complaint when you simply find the jobs you need to perform the task. It's not like you can't find the jobs. Maybe you had to wait longer to find them? I don't know. I mean, sure I guess if that crystal didn't have all those terribly devasating melee range aoe's, you could go in an stupidly-sweet bang on the thing til its bam DED now you got your item. Where's the fun in that? lol Since we've all "grown" with the game, we need some twists here and there to keep things refreshing.

But, what are you expecting? Did you want to fight Tiamat riding on top of Ultima and fighting them on a barbed wire suspended over Jeuno while those taru kids from CoP throw muffins of 9999 damage? Yeh, and all you get is a Onion dagger.

[Armando]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

That still didn't mean that there was something terribly wrong with the missions. Your logic is just silly.

It's naive to say vanilla and RoZ content wasn't flawed in design. There's nothing terribly wrong with them, but they should have been level capped so that they would retain their difficulty. Look at CoP - even with 5 new jobs, new abilities, and lots of new gear and foods, it'll still take you 2 hours to do Promyvion-Zvahl and you'll probably still wipe to Ultima/Omega at least once. CoP is content is always difficult because when it comes right down to it, the level caps mean you're mostly in the same boat as the people that tried CoP when it came out. Then take a look at Shadow Lord - a fight that was made for level 60's, but because it wasn't capped, a Lv.75 can solo it for you.

Granted, these things happen - it's SE's first foray into the MMO world, so obviously you'll see fuck-ups in early content. Just because it's to be expected it doesn't mean the fuck-up isn't there though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

1) Back then, about 7 years ago. The game has grown, evolved and changed since then. Things are different now, and much better.

Tell it to THF, PUP, BLM, PLD, DNC and SMN. The game is just elitist as ever, the jobs that got favored just got shifted around. With some initiative this can be overcome, but it doesn't make the balance of power in EXP or endgame any less frustrating.

Example: 5 new jobs in the last four years and we still adhere to the RoZ playbook on much of it. Only when some kind of exploit emerges did people even look at SCH or COR for something more than how they shallowly employ them otherwise.

2) The mini expansions never have that moment of "awe" when you "first open those doors". We've been through all of these doors before. The running around in a full expansion is passable because the whole point is to make you explore all the new zones. Without that, making you run around is just literally giving you the run around.

I beg to differ.

Wings of the Goddess has had absolutely nothing new in terms of zones for the last several updates, yet has been interesting all the same. These are only slightly remixed zones, the last two that opened up aren't even any different than before save for new mobs and no access to connected zones that would exist in the present. Additionally, the zones that are new are on a breathtaking CoP level of huge.

Delkfutt's Tower is a place I've spent countless hours in on various jobs, especially when it used to be a viable farming haunt. While I was among the early wave of PS2 players doing the Rank Missions in Jeuno, a lot of players have not had the thrill of scaling that tower at a lower level. The only other time I forced myself do approach the zone that way was BST AF1 as I stated earlier.

That's all well and good, and was great back then. But the newer expansions had far more to "get the adrenaline going" then having to Sneak past a dragon.

So what example in early missions are you talking about here? A cutscene or the 90 lbs. wusses that get tossed at you early on? There's no rush to CoP til you get in a Promy for the first time. The first ToA mission is no less than the things you just slammed as less interesting. I just sneak, invis and avoid trus sight until I collect a staging point, then the missions that follow are a bunch of cutscenes with some pushover mob to fight.

WotG was a slog just to get missions started. Get spit out in one of the zones around Jeuno, collect maws, track your way back to your nation of choice sneaking, invising and avoiding true sight mobs along the way.

Sneaking, invising and avoiding true sight. This is the "charge" you get from the initial missions of any expansion. This is what you are critiquing and then turning around and issuing praise to.

Even RoZ did this. Remember that nice slice of tonberry and magic aggro hell you had to walk through? Yeah, first thing I do when i see a tonberry is mass-slaughter them all because they're totally not going to grudge me. Only the uninitiated Final Fantasy player wouldn't know much about them and just run up and start killing them, the rest of us know fighting them has consequence and that they derive joy in dropping you to low HP at will

Try doing the ACP final fight with a basic party set up of tank, healer, support, 3 melee DD. See how long you last. If you have to do a fight which requires you to stack 2-3 of a specific job just to have a chance at winning, it's broken. For a final mission boss fight to have that issue, where all the previous ones actually forced you to have balanced set ups, is just inexcusable.

Only Alexander has ever required a balanced setup and that has less to do with Alexander than it does his little BLU buddy.