A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Or, I could level up the specific job for the situation

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're advocating the requirement of levelling a job from 1-75 for a 30 minute fight?

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're advocating the requirement of levelling a job from 1-75 for a 30 minute fight?

You've been a member of this site since 2003, possibly playing the game since then and you can tell me you were aware that was "not" a trend of this game? If you're aim is to cry about it; bit late. And if your serious, what efforts did you go to in order to bring about some change, -if it was so needed.- I've given you one example. For the sake of intelligent brevity, did you never fathom some BCNM's required specific job set ups to be most effective? Jee, steamed sprouts comes to mind. What was that all rabbit BCNM called..... What if I want to solo Rank 5-2? I don't have MNK or RDM leveled... by gosh darn it all... what am I going to do? I can't solo it... god it must be broken. Just cuz RDM and MNK can and I can't HAS GOT TO BE UNFAIR. GOSH Darnit, I want to solo Genbu. I don't have RDM. It's unfair. I want to go Astral Burn. SMNS CAN ASTRAL BURN! /cry Why can't my NIN or DNC do an astral burn. The game's broken! Why is my WHM getting crap for Campaign points and the DNC and NIN can solo monsters with ease and I can't. MY WHM IS BROKEN.

I mean, you're spinning a broken record here and its repeating, but by all means, proceed.

[Armando]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

BCNMs are in no way comparable to missions. There's a billion BCNMs to choose from, so if you lack the means to do one, you can always find another that will be similarly profitable. And there's many, many other sources of gil.

There's only one way to get a Nuevo Cosolete.

What if I want to solo Rank 5-2? I don't have MNK or RDM leveled... by gosh darn it all... what am I going to do? I can't solo it... god it must be broken.

Also highly irrelevant since no one is whining about their inability to solo ACP11. No one is foolish enough to expect a storyline's final mission to be soloable, and even if it were, no one's asinine enough to get bent out of shape for not having the one job that can solo it because your e-peen demands that you solo everything.

The argument at hand is whether or not ACP11 has unreasonable setup expectations when tackled in a full party. If you're going to argue for or against that then you need to bring up something directly relevant - the setup requirements for other missions. The closest thing to an argument you had was Diabolos, but not everyone needs or wants to get Diabolos (as opposed to the add-ons where the end rewards are alluring to just about anyone.) It's as simple as mentioning one or two 30-minute mission fights that have very strict, specific party set-up requirements to succeed.

Even if you do, though, there's still the matter of having to re-climb Delkfutt's. Suppose the assertion that you NEED a specific setup for ACP11 is wrong, and a balanced party can technically beat Seed Crystal with great care. Should absolutely anything go wrong (e.g. unfortunate DC, random Astral Flow-related death, etc), the cost for failure is quite high. Even if a balanced party can beat Seed Crystal, what good is that if the chances of success are low and climbing the tower takes longer than the fight itself? Hell - even if the fight is technically going well, if the balanced party times out, they get screwed over too. And if someone tries to find an alternate way to win, he's not only going to have a hard time finding people willing to help, but all of them will have to suck up a lot of lost time after each failure.

Sure, it's not impossible. The fight is cool as hell, that's also true. And yes, perhaps players blow the issue out of proportion out of sheer frustration. But you have to ask yourself - why? What's the point of the reclimb? From a design standpoint, it's hard to justify that decision. The fight could've been made arbitrarily hard and players would not have bitched and moaned so much if they could just regroup and jump back in, like in ToAU44 which IS a damned hard fight with very specific strategies.

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

You silly little man. I said once before that I enjoyed the storyline content, didn't get broken to pieces over the item hunting (which did not break my entertainment fun barrier resolve), and liked the BC battles. I thought getting sneak attacked by a Goblin was hillarious. Jee I don't know. It didn't bother me.

You hate it. Great. But just because you hate it and you think it's flawed, doesn't mean "it is." So we're both right. Yay. /die

People like camping HNMs too, doesn't mean it's not broken to spend 24-72 hours in the same exact spot while spamming your claim bot against a hundred other people.

You enjoy running through the starter zones farming low drop items for something you just paid 10 bucks for? Something tells me you're in the vast minority, not me. You silly little man.

Or, I could level up the specific job for the situation, such as when getting Diabolos as an avatar use to require all BLMS and a RDM/DRK, to which I specifically leveld RDM so I could go do that fight. I didn't whine like a little baby about it. I didn't NEED the summon right then and there either. I was 0/8 or so going with a meleeing group. It didn't work. So I got the right job and it did. Just because certain jobs worked better at it, didn't mean it was broke. But hey, your perception is your reality. I'm just saying I was able to deal with the situation and roll with the punches.

If you or other ppl can't and feel the need to whine about it. Be my guest. Thank god for forums huh? w w w

Or you could get people who don't suck to kill Diabolos. Since, ya know, he can be done by a normal party as well. It won't be easy, but it's a side quest and completely optional and not all that rewarding for Non-smns. Plus it was pretty much free.

But you shouldn't have to force players to level up an entire new job just to finish off a crappy add-on expansion story fight (of which there's only two real fights and not much of a story). That's just asinine. And if you actually think that's a good idea and something that people should be happily willing to accept, then it just goes to show that your idea of game balance isn't all that strong.

You enjoyed this content, that's nice. It's still garbage content by any stretch of the imagination.

[Kailea]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

You've been a member of this site since 2003, possibly playing the game since then and you can tell me you were aware that was "not" a trend of this game? If you're aim is to cry about it; bit late. And if your serious, what efforts did you go to in order to bring about some change, -if it was so needed.- I've given you one example. For the sake of intelligent brevity, did you never fathom some BCNM's required specific job set ups to be most effective? Jee, steamed sprouts comes to mind. What was that all rabbit BCNM called..... What if I want to solo Rank 5-2? I don't have MNK or RDM leveled... by gosh darn it all... what am I going to do? I can't solo it... god it must be broken. Just cuz RDM and MNK can and I can't HAS GOT TO BE UNFAIR. GOSH Darnit, I want to solo Genbu. I don't have RDM. It's unfair. I want to go Astral Burn. SMNS CAN ASTRAL BURN! /cry Why can't my NIN or DNC do an astral burn. The game's broken! Why is my WHM getting crap for Campaign points and the DNC and NIN can solo monsters with ease and I can't. MY WHM IS BROKEN.

I mean, you're spinning a broken record here and its repeating, but by all means, proceed.

NO I will not level a job to 75 for a 30 min fight.... are you crazy?

I have been playing FFXI since PC beta even, and I only have DRG/DNC/PLD at 75 (I play at my own pace)
I would never level a job for one fight, htat has to be the stupidest thing -.- I ended up doing ACP fight as DRG/BLU and helped cure (did not have PLD at 75 when I did it)

Many BCNMS are flexible, and many jobs are as well, so it can be done with different party setups. ACP and a few other key fights, are very job specific, and sometimes if you don't have that job leveled, you have to do things like I did, to fit in.

[Malacite]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Sure, it's not impossible. The fight is cool as hell, that's also true. And yes, perhaps players blow the issue out of proportion out of sheer frustration. But you have to ask yourself - why? What's the point of the reclimb? From a design standpoint, it's hard to justify that decision. The fight could've been made arbitrarily hard and players would not have bitched and moaned so much if they could just regroup and jump back in, like in ToAU44 which IS a damned hard fight with very specific strategies.

Christ on a bun, this. Promathia was the only fight I had to redo several times in CoP to win, but you know what? It was as simple as resting up and going back in.

There is no fucking reason for the ridiculous time-sink involved in redoing these mission fights. It's putting undue frustration on the players, and often takes longer than the fight itself. Is climbing delkfut and collecting the 12 shards hard? No, not really. But it's certainly annoying to no end.

Though while we're on the subject, it doesn't come anywhere close to the dickmove that is failing a Mythic Weapon fight against Balrahn. I for one just hope SE has learned their lesson for the sake of FFXIV.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

BCNMs are in no way comparable to missions. There's a billion BCNMs to choose from, so if you lack the means to do one, you can always find another that will be similarly profitable. And there's many, many other sources of gil.

There's only one way to get a Nuevo Cosolete.Also highly irrelevant since no one is whining about their inability to solo ACP11. No one is foolish enough to expect a storyline's final mission to be soloable, and even if it were, no one's asinine enough to get bent out of shape for not having the one job that can solo it because your e-peen demands that you solo everything.

The argument at hand is whether or not ACP11 has unreasonable setup expectations when tackled in a full party. If you're going to argue for or against that then you need to bring up something directly relevant - the setup requirements for other missions.

Nah, I don't, because you don't understand my point. And you certainly aren't in authority to dictate to me what the protocol is for an arguement, so kindly step aside.

There are enough congruencies between the several examples that show that just because you don't have x job leveled doesn't mean the game is broken. Obviously, the designers like throwing at us job specific types of situations, bcnms, rank missions, boss battles, etc etc, where some jobs shine better than others and are more successful then others, which hints at, "play the game and try everything out, tackle your problems from different angles... not all your decisions in job determination will ALWAYS NET YOU A SUCCESSFUL VICTORY over each individual scenario; find the best fit." I get tired of the "why can't my job do what others can do." Because, we're missing the basic understanding of the definition of a JOB. I refuse to expound further.

Game flaw or a designed challenge; what is the original programmers intent? Regardless, there's a way to deal with all these situations. And the perception I have is certainly a stance one can take, with no evquivocation.

Again, you roll with the punches. If you don't like it, figure out some other way to deal with it instead of bitching. I was able to handle these situations without squaller. What makes everyone else so different? Necessity? Ego? Patience? or lack thereo possibly... I mean if my NIN or DNC was 75 and wanted the armor, (which by the way, if I hated the expansion so much, why am I even playing it for the item?) and somehow, someway, I couldn't fit into a group... am I going to sit here and write a letter to Square and start a petition to ask the game designers to start ALWAYS implementing a level playing field of job design when it comes to expansions I have to pay extra money for? Honestly, there comes a point when not liking a feature borders a subjective understanding of the gaming situation. I don't tolerate such behaviour. If you don't like it but everyone else seems to deal with it fine, that speaks for something. Granted, if there is a gross type of negligence on the designers part to attempt to fetter game rules in such that it makes no sense to proceed with playing futher, that's a separate issue.

There's other ways to approach this situation than a standard, herd mentality of "THIS IS HARD AND INCONVENIENT SO IZ PROLLY BROKUN."

Granted, it would be nice to have a LV75 char blaze thru the expansion end battle "like you can with RotZ," but I thought we tried to get away from that idea. I'm not basing comparison on actual rule by rule scenario, but making a congruency between what is broken vs how you can fix it. Apparently someone keeps missing the mark, "as usual."

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Looks like you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Microtransactions =/= addon/expansion. Furthermore, when those addons were released the microtransactions were still two or three years away. When they were eventually implemented a large chunk of people quit in protest.

You weren't trying to make this distinction before, why start now? Meh, why should I ask a question when I know the answer?

Its because I just showed you one of the grandaddies of all MMOs selling items for money, apparently you want to make it not matter because you're comparing add-ons. I'm still addressing your claims of "no MMO has done what SE is doing" and "SE is selling players gear."

Here we go again with the reverse strawman, where any valid point that answers the terms of your argument is magically wrong and where you can make up the terms of your argument as you go along.

Unintentional Shantotto. Ohohohohohoho.

[Armando]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Nah, I don't, because you don't understand my point.

I understand your point, but you can't compare apples to oranges.

And you certainly aren't in authority to dictate to me what the protocol is for an arguement, so kindly step aside.

Arguments are based on logic. If your argument isn't logical you can't really tell anyone he's wrong, and you'd just have to agree to disagree at best.

"play the game and try everything out, tackle your problems from different angles... not all your decisions in job determination will ALWAYS NET YOU A SUCCESSFUL VICTORY over each individual scenario; find the best fit."

The Delkfutt re-climb is completely counterproductive to this "try everything out" attitude. It punishes players for experimenting because odds are you'll have to fail a few times at best, a lot of times at worst to find alternative methods. This is why the second somebody figured out that asinine tanking strategy of constantly running away, everybody clung to it. It was the first thing that worked, so who's going to risk failure trying to find a different strategy if you have to lose 40-60 minutes on each failure?

Again, you roll with the punches.

That is, in fact, the ideal attitude. ACP is out, odds are it won't change, so you do what you must if you want the end prize. That doesn't magically mean, though, that the developer can do whatever he wants and it'll be A-OK, perfectly reasonable, and players should like it. It's one thing to argue players should QQ less, but it's quite another to ignore any and all flaws in something.

[Kailea]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

here's other ways to approach this situation than a standard, herd mentality of "THIS IS HARD AND INCONVENIENT SO IZ PROLLY BROKUN."

there is a difference in "hard" and "not thought out well" having to redo the Tower climb, and the moogle "games" has to be the dumbest thing -.- its pointless to make people do that again, when they should not have to. I like the mini stories, I like the boos fights, and i like the prizes... but having to redo those two (soon to be 3) when I fail or want a different augment, is uncalled for.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

People like camping HNMs too, doesn't mean it's not broken to spend 24-72 hours in the same exact spot while spamming your claim bot against a hundred other people.

You enjoy running through the starter zones farming low drop items for something you just paid 10 bucks for? Something tells me you're in the vast minority, not me. You silly little man.

Your negativity is bordering on ridiculous. Try to type-cast me, could care less.

Or you could get people who don't suck to kill Diabolos. Since, ya know, he can be done by a normal party as well. It won't be easy, but it's a side quest and completely optional and not all that rewarding for Non-smns. Plus it was pretty much free.

Absurd. It cost, what was it... 29.99? Free is an understatement.

Or, you could get people that don't suck to play the final battle... how fair of a statement is this?

But you shouldn't have to force players to level up an entire new job just to finish off a crappy add-on expansion story fight (of which there's only two real fights and not much of a story). That's just asinine. And if you actually think that's a good idea and something that people should be happily willing to accept, then it just goes to show that your idea of game balance isn't all that strong.

Look, I'm not trying to ruin your day lol. I already told you I concede to your idea and we're both right. If you don't agree, I don't really care.

Besides, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. The concept that you're forced is misleading because you "don't" have to play the end mission. If you don't like it, then don't play it.

I'll wager that SE figured that (by their estimations of jobs leveled in the game) they came up with the idea of the difficulty of this expansion and provided us a scenario. Not everyone that doesn't have a job leveled ended up being privy to "a nice easy experience." Is that wrong? It depends on your perception. I'm an average player and I love to xp. I happened to have the jobs leveled and have friends from 6 years ago I still play within, as well as IRL. I made it through. If you didn't, well, to make an assertation that ACP is broken is fine, but it wasn't broken for everyone.

You

enjoyed this content, that's nice. It's still garbage content by any stretch of the imagination.

What part of this in my statements did you miss?

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Oh I get it now. Condescending attitude, flame baiting comments, arguments over points no one made, twisting facts around to mean things they don't actually mean, you're just trolling us. It makes perfect sense now. I mean I can't see how anyone could compare wanting to beat a major mission story line with a balanced party with somehow complaining about not being able to solo a god and actually be serious. And then to claim that the other posters were making ridiculous claims at that? Yea, it can only be the work of someone who's trolling.

[Kailea]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

ShadowHolyFlyingDragon....what part of SE's butt did you detach from? Good lord, I like FFXI a lot, in fact I love all the FF games, but even I will admit when SE screws something up on FFXI, due to their inexperience with the MMORPG genre. The mini stories are not well planned, but I still like them. ACP boss fight, is so off the wall, that yes, it does require special party setups, normal ones and some jobs are useless against it. AMK, is a bit more flexible, but there are still many party setups that just don't work. Level cap content is ok.... but in BCNM format only -.- capping whole missions makes it take longer, and makes it harder (not something I am complaining about really) and many don't care for the meaningless frustration.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

Oh I get it now. Condescending attitude, flame baiting comments, arguments over points no one made, twisting facts around to mean things they don't actually mean, you're just trolling us. It makes perfect sense now. I mean I can't see how anyone could compare wanting to beat a major mission story line with a balanced party with somehow complaining about not being able to solo a god and actually be serious. And then to claim that the other posters were making ridiculous claims at that? Yea, it can only be the work of someone who's trolling.

This is retarded. I don't agree with you on alot of your ideas. For that I'm a troll? You're missing my point like the previous HWWRN. The only distinction I made was that there's certain parts of the game where certain jobs out-perform other jobs, simply by job design. This end BC is no exception.

Just because it required certain jobs to be killed "theoretically," doesn't mean it was broken. I was of the understanding that most people don't like that they can't do a mission becuz certains jobs can and theirs can't and they think that's unfair. Is it really? It depends on how you look at it.

If you start pointing fingers of trolling, that in itself is asinine and immature. We're politely finished here.

ShadowHolyFlyingDragon....what part of SE's butt did you detach from? Good lord, I like FFXI a lot, in fact I love all the FF games, but even I will admit when SE screws something up on FFXI, due to their inexperience with the MMORPG genre. The mini stories are not well planned, but I still like them. ACP boss fight, is so off the wall, that yes, it does require special party setups, normal ones and some jobs are useless against it. AMK, is a bit more flexible, but there are still many party setups that just don't work. Level cap content is ok.... but in BCNM format only -.- capping whole missions makes it take longer, and makes it harder (not something I am complaining about really) and many don't care for the meaningless frustration.

Ridiculous, stop asserting I'm on some hidden board at Square. I'm not going to repeat myself again. I didn't have this huge problem with the missions that most people did. That doesn't make me some unintelligent schmuck. I did them and completed them and had a great time.

Why is that so wrong lol?

If you find failure with them good for you. Not everyone did. If I'm in a small minority, that's neither here nor there. My question is, if we know for a fact Square has historically been job favoring from the begining, what makes us think it's going to change now at the theoretical life-end of FFXI? Unless there was some big out-pouring of discontent with job favoring, Square would have done something. Maybe there was, I don't have initial fact.

Either way, if things were made hunky dory super special fun friends of the universe easy lets all hug and have a happy day kind of difficulty, I'd probably have deleted my account. FFXI is one of the last on the frontier that offers challenge.

[Ziero]

Re: A Shantotto Ascension Rewards... Pre-Sale Going on Now

This is retarded. I don't agree with you on alot of your ideas. For that I'm a troll? You're missing my point like the previous HWWRN. The only distinction I made was that there's certain parts of the game where certain jobs out-perform other jobs, simply by job design. This end BC is no exception.

Just because it required certain jobs to be killed "theoretically," doesn't mean it was broken. I was of the understanding that most people don't like that they can't do a mission becuz certains jobs can and theirs can't and they think that's unfair. Is it really? It depends on how you look at it.

Name one mission fight that can not be won by a balanced party of 6 people with different jobs besides the last ACP fight.

It was already shown that every single major storyline final boss fight forces you to take a balanced party of melee and magic damage to win. ACP is the *only* one that forces you to stack a party with one of four specific jobs. How you somehow or another related that to people complaining that some jobs do better in some things then others is a leap of logic only a troll of great leg strength can make. Especially when we take your examples of Diabolos, which is neither a mission fight, nor impossible to do with a basic party, Steamed Sprouts, which actually relies on having a fairly balanced party despite not being a mission, soloing 5-1 with Monk, which has absolutely nothing to do with having a balanced party because a balanced party can beat that fight as well, and soloing Genbu. Which is out right ridiculous. It's that kind of thinking, in combination with your ability to ignore important points while twisting others in the most bizarre of fashions, which leads me to believe you're a troll.

It's not about some jobs shining more then others at certain things, that's going to happen regardless. It's about some jobs being outright usless in a MAJOR STORYLINE BOSS FIGHT (catch that last part? It's important and you keep ignoring it). If ACP was supposed to be made for casuals, then how come casuals aren't allowed to beat it? Why do they have to level an entirely new job(which is just another trolltastic solution you spouted) just to have a chance to win?

As mentioned, the MKT final fight is hard, but doable with a balanced party (it's just the rest of MKT that sucks). I'll give them credit about that one, it's why no one is really complaining about it, or the first MKT fight, or even the first ACP fight (that one's almost kinda fun). But the final ACP fight? It's a singularly broken and poorly planned boss fight that stands out so much because it was the first of this little series and is just so glaringly horrible. Especially since it's preceded by easily the worst mission based time sinks in the entire game. There is no defense, there is no excuse, the whole of ACP is just an incredibly poor and lack luster Add-on that I hope we won't see more like once these three are finished.

If by some way or somehow ASA turns out to be incredible and fun, devoid of time sinks and fetch quests, yet filled with numerous fun, interesting and unique boss fights, framed around a story that's both engaging and entertaining, you bet your ass I'd buy it. Regardless of my dislike of that heinous bitch. But they're 0/2 so far and chances are SE will be whiffing again on this one.

Oh crap, almost missed this gem.

Absurd. It cost, what was it... 29.99? Free is an understatement.

I didn't pay a dime for Diabolos. I spent 30 bucks on new zones, new missions and new events. I've gotten my money's worth out of CoP a thousand times over with all the stuff I've been able to do in places like Lufiase and Molapolos. Hell, the story alone would be worth 30 bucks to me, it was some kind of epic. Even to this day I find myself getting lots of use from my little investment, with plenty of zones to visit, missions to help friends through and events I can play over and over. But once I get that stupid body from ACP, it's pretty much done with no reason to even look at it again. I mean, having that less then 1% chance that I might actually get an earring that my job can get use out of AND the 1% chance it'll have a helpful stat on it that's better then what I already have is no where near enough to get me to repeat that garbage again.