Why wont people do this?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Why wont people do this?

Limited MP, Blue spell slots, lower Blu Skill, long casting self buffs with short durations and War's fairly pitiful ability to build long lasting hate (being that Dmg is the only way they can create CE) clearly illustrates the numerous reasons why it doesn't work. Especially when compared to War/Dnc, which by it's very nature brings cures, which builds hate, which can be supplemented by Retaliate (giving it an actual use) and can be kept up indefinitely assuming the right target and support.

There's a reason why /Dnc is a better melee sub for solo then /Blu.

You may want to re-examine the enmity formulas for damage dealt, damage taken, and healing. Not even a PLD maintains CE during combat without shadows. They just get a little spike of CE after a Cure, Flash, or WS. I only suggest a Lv75 WAR/BLU use Cocoon and maybe Bludgeon.

Even a weak Raging Rush or Rampage from a WAR/BLU is going to create more enmity than 3 x Curing Waltz II from WAR/DNC. A WAR/BLU or SAM/WAR will destroy a WAR/DNC for enmity gain. Now that I think about it, I should have given SAM/WAR a higher rank after they get Lv70 (fixed).

Lv75 1200HP WAR/BLU or WAR/DNC v. Lv81 Greater Colibri

Weapon Skill & Damage Dealt Enmity (w/weak 400 600 DMG WS)
Kanican - Enmity Table (Damage Dealt)
CE gained = DMG Dealt * CE Modifier = 400 600 * 1.429 = 571 857 CE
VE gained = CE * 4 DMG Dealt * CE Modifier * 3 = 2284 2572 VE

Curing Waltz Enmity
Kanican - Enmity Table (Curing)
CE gained = HP Healed * CE Modifier = 185 167 * 0.727 = 134 121 CE
VE gained = HP Healed * VE Modifier = 185 167 * 4.36 = 806 728 CE
Total CE gained = 3 * 134 121 = 402 363 CE
Total VE gained = 3 * 806 728 = 2418 2184 VE

Damage Taken Enmity
Kanican - Enmity Table (Damage Taken)
CE lost to get full effect from Curing Waltz II x 3 = DMG Taken * CE modifier = 185 * 3 * 1.5 = 832 CE

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Why wont people do this?

There is only once exception to these rules, and that's Klimaform,

Klimaform is technically Dark Magic, so it's not really an exception.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why wont people do this?

Lv75 1200HP WAR/BLU or WAR/DNC v. Lv81 Greater Colibri

Weapon Skill & Damage Dealt Enmity (w/weak 400 DMG WS)
Kanican - Enmity Table (Damage Dealt)
CE gained = DMG Dealt * CE Modifier = 400 * 1.428 = 571 CE
VE gained = CE * 4 = 2284 VE

CE Modifier = 1.449
VE Modifier = 4.29

VE gained != CE *4.

VE gained should be 1716 instead, for a 400 dmg WS.

Curing Waltz Enmity
http://kanican.livejournal.com/30142.html
CE gained = HP Healed * CE Modifier = 185 * 0.727 = 134 CE
VE gained = HP Healed * VE Modifier = 185 * 4.36 = 806 CE
Total CE gained = 3 * 134 = 402 CE
Total VE gained = 3 * 806 = 2418 VE

Damage Taken Enmity
http://kanican.livejournal.com/31613.html
CE lost to get full effect from Curing Waltz II x 3 = DMG Taken * CE modifier = 185 * 3 * 1.5 = 832 CE

Additionally, /DNC offers:
Spectral Jig: 1CE, 300VE, 30s recast, 0 TP
Animated Flourish: 1CE, 1500VE, 30s recast, 20TP minimum for 1500VE due to steps needed.

There's also Drain Samba II for 1CE, 300VE, but that's not cost effective enough to ride the timer for enmity.

* * *

Not sure about WAR/DNC as tank, but PLD/DNC on Greater Colibri is nice because one can use TP in smaller increments. Given how often Colibris use the Feather Tickle move, this saves a lot of TP from going to waste compared to waiting to 100% TP to WS.

Of course, that would be less damage output, but so much more additional curing power helps the stressed out single mage (RDM) in those NA parties. PLD/DNC also seems to hold the birds better than PLD/NIN, while needing less far less cures from the backline than PLD/WAR.

It was also some exhusting work; almost non-stop macro firing.

Spells/JsA: Flash, Cure III, Step, Waltz, Flourish, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Cover. (Just tracking timers for all those is mentally draining.)
Equipment set switching: TP, Waltz (CHR + VIT), WS (sometimes)

For bird parties, PLD/DNC is more work than RDM or BRD.

Haven't tried it in merit parties other than Greater Colibri, though, so can't say how it fares in other camps, but it'll definitely be busy.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Why wont people do this?

Thanks for the correction! ^_^

I just didn't want people to discount weapon skills from being able to compete with Curing Waltz II. They also benefit from spiking your enmity early instead of building it over time, which may benefit your party more in a TP burn.

However, I did fail to consider the effectiveness of Spectral Jig and Animated Flourish.

Lv75 Player v. Lv81 Enemy
WAR/DNC (90 TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
Curing Waltz II (167 HP) for 121 CE & 728 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz II (167 HP) for 121 CE & 728 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 242 CE & 5056 VE

WAR/BLU (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE ~ 1800 VE
700 DMG WS for 1000 CE & 3000 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 1000 CE & 4800 VE

Ok, I see now that in the first 20 seconds a WAR/DNC can build a lot of enmity for only 90 TP, and I give more weight to VE. I've changed the table to move WAR/DNC up to a B rank for hate holding Lv60+. I'll need to think more about Lv40-49 and Lv50-59.

Earlier Thoughts:

WAR/BLU and WAR/DNC are much more complicated than a simple table can show. WAR with Joyeuse, an Acheron Shield, and sushi is probably going to be better off with DNC SJ, but would the same be true with an Axe or a Great Axe? I was considering the Great Axe situation when I formed the table.

Now the other thing to consider is how much damage you are taking. I ranked both WAR/BLU and WAR/DNC as providing the same benefit to mitigating damage your support needs to cure. The two even out when Cocoon is reducing damage taken by 33% and Curing Waltz is healing 33% of the damage taken.

Fighting T-VT enemies you might see the benefit of Curing Waltz pull ahead. Fighting IT enemies you might see the benefit from Cocoon pull ahead. However, there is also the option for WAR/DNC to use Defender or Defense food after the first pull, which makes it very flexible. Defense food with WAR/BLU is laughable.

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

Lv40 Player v. Lv46 Enemy
WAR/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 320 CE & 5220 VE

WAR/BLU (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
300 DMG WS for 705 CE & 2118 (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 705 CE & 3918 VE

----

Lv50 Player v. Lv56 Enemy
WAR/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
Curing Waltz (72 HP) for 72 CE & 432 VE (20 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (72 HP) for 72 CE & 432 VE (20 TP)
Curing Waltz (72 HP) for 72 CE & 432 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (72 HP) for 72 CE & 432 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 288 CE & 5328 VE

WAR/BLU (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
400 DMG WS for 800 CE & 2400 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 800 CE & 4200 VE

----

Lv55 Player v. Lv61 Enemy
WAR/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
Curing Waltz (73 HP) for 67 CE & 407 VE (20 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (73 HP) for 67 CE & 407 VE (20 TP)
Curing Waltz (73 HP) for 67 CE & 407 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (73 HP) for 67 CE & 407 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 268 CE & 5228 VE

WAR/BLU (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
500 DMG WS for 930 CE & 2790 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 930 CE & 4590 VE

----

Lv60 Player v. Lv66 Enemy
WAR/DNC (90 TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
Curing Waltz II (156 HP) for 135 CE & 814 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz II (156 HP) for 135 CE & 814 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 270 CE & 5228 VE

WAR/BLU (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke 1800 VE
600 DMG WS for 1021 CE & 3063 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 1021 CE & 4863 VE

----

This isn't what I expected. My fault for not knowing the power of Animated Flourish. Looks like WAR/DNC gets a B rank in hate holding starting at Lv40. WAR/BLU initially needs Head Butt and Bludgeon to keep up unless they have stronger WS than I estimated. This assumes both are playing equally offensively.

[Armando]

Re: Why wont people do this?

Mm. Bear in mind that you're not taking into consideration the normal DPS across both subs. /BLU has an obvious advantage there for being able to eat Marinara Pizza and still have a 50% Defense bonus. If the party can support it, /BLU can also afford to pop Berserk. If the /DNC pops Defender, his DPS will go down extremely sharply as well (Defender + Defense food isn't recommended for anything but for clear overcutting, same as PLD.)

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Why wont people do this?

OMG! This is even more surprising. RDM/DNC FTW!

Ok, basically even with DNC/WAR, PLD/DNC, WAR/DNC, and DRK/DNC, but RDM/DNC has Round Shield, Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Ice Spikes, and Convert. Not too shabby.

I think they were trying very hard to hint at something when they introduced Fan Dance. Lv10-75 DNC/WAR really is a tank! I wouldn't doubt it could be as good as PLD and NIN with Paralyze, Blind, Slow, evasion gear, accuracy gear, enmity sushi, and enmity gear. Throw in Joyeuse and Defender if a BRD is giving ACC and ATK songs.

Also if they didn't nerf subjob DNC, full Koenig PLD would have been dishing out 260 HP Curing Waltz IIs (now only 195 HP). I noticed this a long time ago, but I never knew how powerful that really would have made them.

These are the first 30 seconds. Repeat Animated Flourish, Quick Step, Box Step for longer fights to keep up with Provoke.

Lv40 Player v. Lv46 Enemy
PLD/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Flash for 180 CE & 1280 VE
Cure II (90 HP) for 94 CE & 568 VE
Curing Waltz (71 HP) for 81 CE & 487 VE (20 TP)
Animated Flourish for 1500 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (71 HP) for 81 CE & 487 VE (20 TP)
Curing Waltz (71 HP) for 81 CE & 487 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (71 HP) for 81 CE & 487 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 598 CE & 5296 VE

RDM/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Blind for 640 VE
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Animated Flourish for 1500 VE (0 TP)
Bind for 640 VE
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Blind for 640 VE
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 320 CE & 5340 VE

DRK/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Drain (90 HP?) for 94 CE & 568 VE
Animated Flourish for 1500 VE (0 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Stun for 180 CE and 1280 VE
Aspir for 320 CE
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Total Enmity = 734 CE & 5268 VE

MNK/DNC (100 TP)
Open fight with Animated Flourish for 1500 VE (0 TP)
Boost for 300 VE
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Boost for 300 VE
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (70 HP) for 80 CE & 480 VE (20 TP)
Boost for 300 VE
Total Enmity = 320 CE & 4320 VE

DNC/WAR (90 TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Curing Waltz II (169 HP) for 193 CE & 1159 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish for 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz II (169 HP) for 193 CE & 1159 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 386 CE & 5918 VE

PLD/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
150 DMG WS for 352 CE & 1058 VE (100+ TP)
Flash for 180 CE & 1280 CE
Cure II (90 HP) for 94 CE & 568 VE
Total Enmity = 626 CE & 4706 VE

RDM/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Blind for 640 VE
Provoke for 1800 VE
Bind for 640 VE
150 DMG WS for 352 CE & 1058 VE (100+ TP)
Blind for 640 VE
Total Enmity = 352 CE & 4778 VE

DRK/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Drain (90 HP?) for 94 CE & 568 VE
Provoke for 1800 VE
300 DMG WS for 705 CE & 2118 (100+ TP)
Aspir for 320 CE
Total Enmity = 1119 CE & 4486 VE

----

Lv75 Player v. Lv81 Enemy
PLD/DNC (90 TP)
Open fight with Flash for 180 CE & 1280 VE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz (170 HP) for 123 CE & 741 VE (35 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 571 CE & 5434 VE

PLD/WAR (100+ TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Flash for 180 CE & 1280 CE
Cure III (200 HP) for 145 CE & 872 VE
400 DMG WS for 571 CE & 1714 VE (100+ TP)
Total Enmity = 896 CE & 5666 VE

DNC/WAR (120 TP)
Open fight with Provoke for 1800 VE
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Animated Flourish 1500 VE (0 TP)
Spectral Jig 300 VE (0 TP)
Quick Step (10 TP)
Curing Waltz III (410 HP) for 298 CE & 1787 VE (50 TP)
Box Step (10 TP)
Total Enmity = 596 CE & 7174 VE

It will be difficult to take damage over time into account.

Lv51 DOT VE:
MNK/WAR > DRK/WAR > WAR w/Great Axe > DRG/WAR > SAM/WAR > WAR w/Axe > NIN/WAR > BLU/WAR > PLD/WAR > RDM/WAR > PLD/DNC > DNC/WAR > WHM/WAR

However, NIN/WAR also maintains CE, so that is one where it needs to be factored in the most.

Updated Keeping Hate Table

----- | -------------------------- Keeping Hate ------------------------- |
-MAIN |PLD|PLD|NIN|MNK|MNK|WAR|WAR|WAR|SAM|BLU|DNC|RDM|RDM|DRK|DRK|WHM|DRG|
LV/SUB|DNC|WAR|WAR|WAR|DNC|MNK|DNC|BLU|WAR|WAR|WAR|WAR|DNC|DNC|WAR|WAR|WAR|
-- 01 | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 02 | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 03 | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 04 | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 05 | F | F | F | F | F | D | D | D | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 06 | F | F | F | F | F | D | D | D | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 07 | F | F | F | F | F | D | D | D | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F | F |
-- 08 | F | F | F | F | F | D | D | D | F | F | F | F | F | E | F | F | F |
-- 09 | F | F | F | F | F | D | D | D | F | F | F | E | E | F | F | F | F |
-- 10 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | D | D | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 11 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | D | D | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 12 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | D | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 13 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | D | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 14 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | D | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 15 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | C | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 16 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | C | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 17 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | C | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 18 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | C | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 19 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | C | C | E | F | D | D | D |
-- 20 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 21 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 22 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 23 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | D | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 24 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 25 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 26 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 27 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 28 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 29 | F | D | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 30 | F | C | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 31 | F | C | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 32 | F | C | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 33 | F | C | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 34 | F | C | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 35 | F | B | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | C | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 36 | F | B | D | C | F | C | D | C | D | B | A | C | E | F | C | D | D |
-- 37 | D | A | C | C | F | C | D | C | D | B | A | C | E | E | B | D | D |
-- 38 | D | A | C | C | F | C | D | C | D | B | A | C | E | E | B | D | D |
-- 39 | D | A | C | C | F | C | D | C | D | B | A | C | E | E | B | D | D |
-- 40 | A | A | B | C | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | D | D |
-- 41 | A | A | B | B | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | D | D |
-- 42 | A | A | B | B | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | D | D |
-- 43 | A | A | B | B | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | D | D |
-- 44 | A | A | B | B | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | D | D |
-- 45 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | D |
-- 46 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | D |
-- 47 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | D |
-- 48 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | D |
-- 49 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 50 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | D | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 51 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 52 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 53 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 54 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 55 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 56 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 57 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 58 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 59 | A | A | B | A | B | C | A | C | C | B | A | B | A | A | B | C | C |
-- 60 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 61 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 62 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 63 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 64 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 65 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 66 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 67 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 68 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 69 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | C | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 70 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 71 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 72 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 73 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 74 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |
-- 75 | A | A | B | A | B | B | A | B | B | B | A | B | A | A | A | C | C |

[Mithrankittycat]

Re: Why wont people do this?

I just invite DDs. Screw tanks.

[Kailea]

Re: Why wont people do this?

I just invite DDs. Screw tanks.

I hope your kidding.....

[Kouper]

Re: Why wont people do this?

Hmmm, I love doing things the most unorthodox way possible. My tank priest in BC for wow (believe me, it was incredibly hard to do, and only fun once in a while. And only possible before heroics, after that bosses can one shot me... still) And its fun to do things that make people say "wtf are you doing and how are you doing it, and how are we still alive?" This thread has given me the desire to begin FFXI all over again, and level up the strangest tank I possibly can. :-) Ty for the ideas, I may be returning to vana diel, yet again.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Why wont people do this?

I returned to FFXI this weekend to experiment with RDM/DNC (Lv43-47). I didn't have trouble tanking, but it was a waist. Too much time is spent casting Refresh, Blind, and Bind, and there was no time between fights to recast Phalanx, Ice Spikes, Blink, and Stoneskin. I'd rather simply focus on enfeebles (Paralyze, Slow, Dia II) and healing (Curing Waltz). However, the experience made me highly recommend PLD/DNC. I'll let you know if RDM/DNC tanking works better at Lv50 with increased Phalanx, Ice Spikes, and Self-Refresh duration.

I've been working to build my parties as quickly as possible and figure out how to make the best use of whoever is seeking closest to my level. This ultimately meant TP burn style parties with a support job (RDM, WHM, SCH, BLM, SMN, COR, or BRD) pulling since there is no required downtime. There also needs to be an enfeebler (RDM, WHM, SCH, or NIN) who serves as either a healer, puller, or DD.

Here are the party styles I found most effective:

Self Healing Blood Tank Party
Tank (PLD/WAR, PLD/DNC, DNC/WAR, RDM/WAR, RDM/DNC, BLU/WAR, WAR/DNC)
Healer
Puller
3 x DD (WAR SJ)

DD Blood Tank Party
Tank (MNK/WAR, WAR/MNK, SAM/WAR)
2 x Healer
Puller
2 x DD (WAR SJ)

NIN SJ Party
Hate grabber (NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, DRK/NIN, PLD/NIN)
Healer
Puller
3 x DD (NIN SJ)

WAR, MNK, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG, NIN, PUP, and BLU all worked well as DD. I imagine a BLM, SCH, SMN, or RDM could also work as a DD, but generally a puller or second healer was needed.

I'm not saying that SC+MB is ineffective or inefficient, but I only encountered one party where it made a lot of sense: RDM/DNC, SCH/RDM, BLM/WHM, PLD/WAR, DRG/WAR, SAM/WAR. Mostly I now see BLM and SCH as support jobs who can help with pulling and/or healing while casting nukes with spare MP.

Also I've found that there really is no need for a magic user to rest if they have a source of refresh:

Healer (DNC SJ)
- TP for curing
- MP for support (enfeebling, enhancing, nukes, etc.)

Curing Waltz only provides about 70 HP for 20 TP, but it has proved sufficient when combined with Regen in a NIN SJ or Self-Healing Blood Tank party. Two sources of Curing Waltz is needed for a DD Blood Tank party. Also to make things safer it is nice to have a backup DD/healer (DD/DNC, DD/RDM, DD/WHM, PLD, or DNC).

Puller (NIN SJ)
- Shadows for pulling
- MP for support (enfeebling, enhancing, nukes, etc.)

Blink and Stoneskin from WHM or RDM can also work for pulling. SMN/SCH and SMN/DNC are the odd puller options with no source of shadows.

P.S. - This is mostly just my thoughts on Lv41-50. I have no idea how these parties will work in other ranges. Lv30-40 would work with some source of refresh such as FoV, Ballad, or drinks. Lv51-59 might see CW1 starting to drop behind in required healing power. Lv60+ CW2 comes available with 30% higher efficiency compared to CW1.

[tsukanomon]

Re: Why wont people do this?

i think some ppl dont think about it at the right time...