Poor concepts of FFXI

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

I try not to think too hard about the accuracy of things like elements in RPGs given they vary from RPG to RPG and even Final Fantasy to Final Fantasy.

I set up my nuke macros for BLM and SCH according to FFXI's wheel, so I never have to forget what it is, even my Quick Draw macros reflect this.

But in other RPGs it can and will all go out the window. In Shin Megami Tensei titles, Wind (Zan) is weak to Electricity (Zio), Ice (Bufu) is weak to Fire (Agi). There's usually no earth element at all, except for the Digital Devil Saga games. Also, both light (Hama) and dark magic (Mudo) are death magics of varying accuracy per tier. Only thing that trumps all there is Almighty magic (Megidola) and its non-elemental. Usally also sucks if its not boosted by an ability.

Pokemon has the standard elemental types and other type sets that can get paired up with them depending on the critter. Psychic, Steel, Poison, Ghost, Grass, Bug are just a few examples. Steel is almost overpowered in that it weakens Psychic attacks and physical as well, but then without it Psychic would be totally dominant which is why it was introduced. A Steel type is going to take roughly the same amount of damage from any standard type of element.

So, just take elements in RPGs in a case-by-case context. You're inevitably going to relearn the wheel anyway.

[Mhurron]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

Because fantasy isn't based at all on the real world.

Firstly, you're complaining about magic. That has no basis in reality. Second, the idea of elements sympathetic and in opposition to each other comes from ideas like [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_elements]these[/ame] which also have no basis in reality.

It is a fantasy game. It doesn't have to abide by any laws of nature and for the most part doesn't.You're attempting to shoehorn logic based on the real world into something a dev group in Japan made up one evening after drinking too much.

If I were to come up with a job classified as fire, I would know exactly where it fits in

You would know and it would make sense to you because you made it up. I could take that same job, redefine what 'fire' means in my world and your idea would be incorrect now. The only logical explanations for any of it must be taken from the game references themselves because anything outside that has no relationship to it.

[Rothy]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

Water douses fire.
Fire melts ice.
Ice hinders wind.
Wind breaks up earth.
Earth grounds thunder.
Thunder shocks water.

It's how I remember the elements, and it's always made sense to me. I have no complaints with the elemental wheel.

Thats exactly what I was thinking.. I don't see whats wrong with it to be honest.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

Sort of off topic in response to BBQ, the Tales of Symphonia sequel uses pretty much the exact same elemental wheel as FFXI. But it's really the only other game I know that does that.

[Neverslip]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

According to the elemental wheel:

Fire<Water<Lightning<Earth<Wind<Ice

I find that this makes much more sense:

Fire<Water<Earth<Lightning<Ice<Wind

The elemental wheel seems fine to me in fantasy terms... but also in terms of real world simple science. Like alchemy, clasical elements, and the humours of the middle ages it should be taken with a grain of salt. I believe when thinking in terms of mob's weaknesses, it should maybe be viewed as they are inhabitants of that elemental state rather than created out of that particular element. Like: Fish are not made of water yet they are effected adversely by lightning's presence in their habitat. As said... a flying mob has an advantage over a grounded mob...

Earth less than lightning...?? Lightning is dissipated into the ground... "grounded" I disagree with that assessment. If lightning reduces earth (sand) to another form of earth (glass) but the lightning is destroyed in the process, Earth still comes out the victor. Changed but still present and accounted for.

Wind does disperse/change Earth and quicker than millions of years... dust storms... sand storms... tornadoes... etc. But unlike Lightning, Wind is not used up in the process. It simply moves on to erode another area.

Ice is a strange one cuz it's really just Water combined w/ Wind; yet having Wind at the end defeating Ice would imply that Fire defeats Wind easier than it defeats Ice; which to me doesn't make sense. Adding heat to Wind simply makes the air hotter and doesn't necessarily "defeat" it. I don't understand how you are getting Lightning defeated by Ice or Ice defeated by Wind.

I'm fine with the elemental wheel and can understand it's origins way more than I understand it's application in-game. But, I would add, it is a antiquated way of thinking.... idk... I'm rambling now.

[DakAttack]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

It is a fantasy game. It doesn't have to abide by any laws of nature and for the most part doesn't.You're attempting to shoehorn logic based on the real world into something a dev group in Japan made up one evening after drinking too much.

Understood, and I agree, but I'm not the only one. Anybody else who has come here and said that it makes perfect sense to them has done the same thing I have. The difference being it made sense to them, whereas it didn't make much sense to me.

You guys have brought up a lot of good points. I've been looking at it as basic elemental interactions, which made it difficult to come to any concrete conclusion. Looking at it as elemental-based beings or environments makes things a lot clearer.

Ice is a strange one cuz it's really just Water combined w/ Wind; yet having Wind at the end defeating Ice would imply that Fire defeats Wind easier than it defeats Ice; which to me doesn't make sense. Adding heat to Wind simply makes the air hotter and doesn't necessarily "defeat" it. I don't understand how you are getting Lightning defeated by Ice or Ice defeated by Wind.

I'm fine with the elemental wheel and can understand it's origins way more than I understand it's application in-game. But, I would add, it is a antiquated way of thinking.... idk... I'm rambling now.

After reading the Wiki entry Mhurron posted, I realized I was using a combination of generating and overcoming. Wind would generate fire, similarly to how oxygen feeds fire and how wind can easily spread forest fires. Lightning overcomes Earth, such that it has the ability to penetrate it. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing, but if I can come up with two distinct wheels it might allow more interesting planning for strength/weakness relationships as well as supportive relationships.

The Wu Xing overcoming cycle does seem to fall in line with my Fire<Water<Earth idea.


Pardon my spelling and grammar, I'm on Tylenol #3.

[DakAttack]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

For basic creature-creature interaction it does seem SE's wheel is rather practical. Fire creatures are doused by water creatures, who in turn find themselves susceptible to the attacks of lightning creatures. Earth creatures resist the electrical attacks of Lightning creatures, but find it difficult to defend against and pursue wind creatures, who in turn can find no reprieve from ice creatures, who are easily melted by fire creatures.

I'm still attempting to perfect my own list though.


I was thinking about overcoming and generating. I feel a nice generating order would be:

Wind -> Fire -> Earth -> Water -> Ice -> Lightning

When you relate the different elements to their particular stats or roles, I believed you'd find that where each element generates another, you'd also find a nice basis to create support abilities. Wind could generate fire within itself, strengthening it's quick attacks. Fire could generate Earth within itself, bolstering its defense. Earth generates water within itself, enabling more supportive abilities. Water generates ice, adding or creating a disabling edge. Ice generates lightning within itself, increasing its potential for critical attacks. Lightning somehow generates wind within itself, quickening its devastating attacks.

[Karinya]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

The relationships between earth (ground), thunder (electric), water, fire, and ice are also the same in Pokemon, which is one of the best known examples of elemental rock-paper-scissors. (Also much more complex than FFXI's.)

But aside from some really obvious real-world things like water quenching fire, you can make up plausible-sounding rationales for a lot of possible relationships. The important thing is how well does it work for gameplay, and I think FFXI's wheel works pretty well, aside from the fact that the number of mobs weak to each element is very uneven.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

Wait. I just realized something.

How is this thread, the majority of which just complaining about the elemental possibly not making sense (except for ice beating wind it seems plausible enough for a fantasy game, ice beating wind is just the last link to make it in to a circle to balance things out), entitled "Poor concepts of FFXI," when changing all of your clothes/armor in the blink of an eye, whilst engaged in combat is a much less realistic and much more practical problem of this game to be examining?

[Nuriko]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

It was an attempt by the OP to make this thread sound like a broad-based sort of pointing out of problems as opposed to the reality of it being somebody with a problem with the current elemental wheel.

[Rothy]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

hanging all of your clothes/armor in the blink of an eye, whilst engaged in combat

Like a ninja?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

when changing all of your clothes/armor in the blink of an eye, whilst engaged in combat is a much less realistic and much more practical problem of this game to be examining?

Magic exists in FFXI, which already breaks all logic. Really, all SE has to do to make equipment swapping 'realistic' is to make it consistent with rest of the magical happenings by providing a bit of storyline. Say, something like one has to do a quest before Moogle grants the ability to change equipment mid-fight.

Just pretend such a quest exists, and you already did it with much approval (and appreciation) from your adoring Moogle so you can stop bothering with /angry at a pointless comparision to reality.

Gear changes and macros add a bit of depth (and complexity) to the battles--I happen to like this system.

* * *

Look at chess--what do everyone have to stand in a grid? And, knights on horse back can only move in a funny 2/3 diagonal way? And the horse can't kick people in front or behind? What the heck? How totally unrealistic! I mean, how likely is your average queen able to fly in from half-way across the battle field and take down a brawny soldier in one hit from the 45 degree angle?

[DakAttack]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

It was an attempt by the OP to make this thread sound like a broad-based sort of pointing out of problems as opposed to the reality of it being somebody with a problem with the current elemental wheel.

I had two problems, thank you very much. The equipment thing is more a technical problem, while the elemental wheel is conceptual.

[Armando]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

Gear changes and macros add a bit of depth (and complexity) to the battles--I happen to like this system.

I know this is sort of a derail but the main topic has sort of died down, so I figure this is ok...

While I don't waste my time trying to "fight it" or getting upset over it, I really dislike the gear swap system for various reasons:
A) Reduces the amount of "critical thinking" that goes into buying equipment and putting together gear sets. There's absolutely no need to have a balanced armor set because you can simply have the best equipment possible for each individual action.
B) As a corollary of A, numerous pieces of equipment are reduced to being equipped only for second-long intervals. In addition to this, these pieces of equipment take up much inventory space (though in a more abstract analysis, one could argue that a different game implementing the same system could deal with the inventory issues.)
C) Being able to maximize the potential of every action reduces the potential for player individuality/customization, which ultimately kills the game's depth. Coupled with a lack of stat diversity and availability in equipment (e.g. there isn't enough DEX and Crit equipment in the game to make a crit build practical,) the game has fallen into a state of almost total gear homogeneity. That is, every person of X job strives to have practically the same gear for a given encounter.
D) Unless it's applied in conjunction with a powerful tool that automatically changes equipment when specific criteria are met, the equip swap gameplay pattern creates a complete reliance on macros and destroys the usefulness of text commands and the UI's menu entries, since selecting an action through these won't allow for massive gear swapping in a timely manner. However, the implementation of such a tool (e.g. Spellcast) could be troublesome for the developers due to the high potential for automated behavior.

It's true that equip swaps add some depth to FFXI's combat, but that's because FFXI's combat system is discouragingly shallow. True depth comes from being able to employ your creativity into creating a playstyle, and having a plethora of strategic choices in battle. In FFXI, every player with a certain job is practically a carbon copy of everyone else with that job. Merits tried to increase diversity within a job but ultimately failed. Chess is an exemplary example of a system with depth; although every player has exactly the same resources available to them, each player can employ vastly different strategies. In a way, the way the player accommodates his pieces reflects a stylistic choice in gameplay, with strengths and weaknesses. FFXI completely lacks this sort of player individuality. The only choices exist at a "lower" level, that of group-wide strategy (that is, how the different components of the group will work towards achieving a single goal.) However, this level of strategy is just as present in a game that allows each player to adapt a particular gameplay style.

[Malacite]

Re: Poor concepts of FFXI

I agree with Armando. FF XIV had better have far less of a need (if any) for gear swapping.


Please SE, do away with gear swaps and animation locks and we will you.