Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

[Malacite]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Well, SE already added other ways to engage the NMs I'm after (King Arthro, Simurgh and Eastern Shadow) but they're not exactly practical (Nyzul + Sandworm...) and seriously the 24+ hour waits are silly. An ENM like system sounds pretty good though, if the drop rate is reasonable since it'd be a 5-day wait (While I"m on the subject for the love of christ increase the drop rate on Hagun already that thing is so over priced it's not funny.)

At the very least they could can the weekly spawning of the 3 Kings... I mean come on, a set of mobs that only spawn once a week? I'd like to know where SE got the notion that there are people who actually enjoy camping them. They can leave them as 24 hour spawns since they drop some fairly big ticket items but perhaps adjust the drop rates a bit and give every spawn a chance to be the HQ, with each passing day since the last spawn raising the chance.

I think it would make it more interesting that way since it could create either more or less frequent HQ spawns. Some of their drops are in KS99 runs I know but good luck finding people to do those without joining an HNM shell (I've been trying for weeks now > _ < god I want my BB and/or Speed Belt)


SE's main reason for making Nyzul use the same entry system as Assaults is for the sake of Mythic Weapons though IMO that's a real BS excuse when you consider how few people will actually go far enough to get one. What's wrong with being able to do Salvage and Nyzul at the same time? I happen to enjoy both events and both have awesome rewards but I really hate having to pick. SE doesn't do this with anything else (except ENMs and those are 5 day waits) so what gives?


And you could easily shorten Dynamis as I suggested. SE would have to dramatically cut the number of mobs in the zone and possibly adjust their strength (though Dyna mobs honestly aren't that tough to begin with) but they could do it. The CoP zones already have a pretty good system in place with the initial 1 hour restriction and then another hour when you frag the boss, you could do the same with cities. Either way Dynamis just drags on far too long (as does sky... please please please adjust dio drop rates...)

Maybe just make it the same as CoPs then? 1 hour to begin with, then another hour when the boss goes down. No more stupid TE mobs. I can tolerate CoP runs because they're an hour and a half shorter but even then it gets to me some days. I love Nyzul, Einherjar and Assault because they are short and brutally hard (Einherjar) but also different from the other content the game offers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

1- Basically, yes. If the only useful thing a job can do is stand around and improve drop rates, the job needs to be fixed.

So after about seven years of THF having this ability in the game and endgame strategies negating the need for the job in the majority of the fight, your solution is to rob the job of part of what makes it unique?

THF, as a job, functions as its meant to. The problem with THF is the same as DNC, BST, BLU and PUP at endgame - SE just looks at the job change system as the way out rather than finding a way for every job to be able to participate and shine in a fight.

Some jobs need tweaks to make this practical, yes, but any form of change that takes away from a job's uniqueness is shitty design.

You just want your pot of gold without consequence or thought towards job uniqueness. If you want treasure and wealth to happen, THF and BST are the way to go.

2- Even then, I didn't say those were the only possible factors. Having TH in your group could increase everyone's chances of getting an item by some amount, instead of increasing the simple rate of an item appearing in the treasure pool. Not a radical change at all.

If there's a way to give a job trait to everyone in your party then it belongs to Corsair. Again, you completely ignore job design and identity and go straight to finding easier ways to gratify yourself.

The old systems do nothing to protect players and ensure they eventually get their items. The system I'm proposing has no downsides except for those that do manipulate point systems to ensure that they get what they want before anyone else. Keep in mind that the system I'm proposing would cause the item to go directly into your inventory, not into a treasure pool. LS leaders would have no recourse against your 'luck', and no rational reason to kick you because you got an item before they did. I think you're confusing my idea (individualized rewards based on previous effort) with simply building an LS point system into the game (which wouldn't be much more useful than building in a notepad application)

Your sysetm is full of downsides. If everyone can earn a treasure hunter effect, TH can be shared and stacked on it just for a THF being there and everyone has thier own little treasure pool, guess what happens?

Rare items cease to be rare. It would also turn game balance on its ear. Imagine everyone having a Ridill. Or full sets of Salvage gear. All because they played long enough to let the system favor them.

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing? Part of the excitement in getting this gear is that its a gamble. The satisfaction should come from knowing you worked for it and that its still rare.

I don't want people running around with Vali's Bows just because they can't get groups together to do the BCNM for Eurytos' bow instead. I camped that NM, it was my fight and I had little to no chance of getting that drop. But I did.

Its not like other RNGs don't have something comprable besides those two bows - Selene's Bow has been adequate for years and that's what I had before Vali's Bow. E/V-Bow just happens to be better all around, there's no shame in having the Selene Bow to hold you over.

[Feba]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

So after about seven years of THF having this ability in the game and endgame strategies negating the need for the job in the majority of the fight, your solution is to rob the job of part of what makes it unique?

Again, if it's only around so that other people are slightly more likely to profit, yes, it needs to be fixed. I'm not saying that THFs should fuck off and die, I'm saying they should be improved so that they have more to do than join in and improve drop rates.

If there's a way to give a job trait to everyone in your party then it belongs to Corsair. Again, you completely ignore job design and identity and go straight to finding easier ways to gratify yourself.

What the fuck are you talking about? It's not 'giving your job trait to everyone in your party' any more than Treasure Hunter is as it is for increasing drops other people are farming. Although Corsair is an interesting idea-- if the drop system is redesigned in the way I'm suggesting, TH could apply just for the THF (assuming again that THF is improved to make it a valid job for more than affecting drop rate) and COR would use some ability to make it apply to everyone. That seems unnecessarily complex, though.

Your sysetm is full of downsides. If everyone can earn a treasure hunter effect, TH can be shared and stacked on it just for a THF being there and everyone has thier own little treasure pool, guess what happens?

oh, I know... it's.... exactly what fucking happens now! BBQ, are you playing dumb? Do you really not understand how TH right now is a benefit for the entire party? It's purely a matter of individualizing treasure pools, and making those individualized treasure pools based upon effort instead of sheer luck.

Rare items cease to be rare. It would also turn game balance on its ear. Imagine everyone having a Ridill. Or full sets of Salvage gear. All because they played long enough to let the system favor them.

Oh please.

1- If rare items become too common, the system I suggest makes it extremely easy to simply tone back reward rates. Once again, you confuse making drops less random with making them less rare. I have no interest in making things more common or easier, simply less frustrating. For example, let's say I want a piece of equipment. I camp the NM for it, and go 0/5. A competitor claims it and gets it on the first drop. This is incredibly frustrating, given the length of repop timers on most FFXI NMs. If I knew that every time I killed the NM, my chances of getting the drop improved, it would be much better.
2- Your same argument applies to relic weapons. "baaaaaaaaw, the Excalibur isn't rare! All you have to do is collect a bunch of currency and do a couple quests!". I don't think anyone thinks that those weapons are any more common because they're not insanely rare dynamis drops instead of requiring huge amounts of time investment. Furthermore, the systems you advocate (LS points, other in-game points systems) suffer exactly the same flaw of 'if you play long enough, the system is more likely to give you what you want'-- if that can really be considered a flaw.

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing?

BBQ, your arguments are getting worse and worse. How about your paycheck? "Man, I don't want my boss giving me money just because he feels sorry for all the time I spent working. If I get paid every month, how am I supposed to be happy with that?". Or how about levels; did you feel unsatisfied when you hit 75 because it was a 'sure thing' once you got your TNL to 0? Again, I am not saying things should be easier or more common, I am saying they should be less random. I get that you like roguelikes, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's horrible design for an MMO like this. I am not saying that the game should say "oh, well, you suck really bad, but here's your prize anyway. A for Effort, man!". I'm saying it should say "you've been putting in a lot of work for this for a long time, you've felled King Asshole for the thirtieth time now, I think it's fair to give you your reward". Imagine if instead of earning EXP, you leveled up on random monster kills. Some people would hit 75 within days; other people would be stuck for months. That's exactly how item drops are now, and that's exactly how unfair and broken they are. From my understanding, this is basically what Crisis Core did-- but with a system in the background that made sure you didn't level up too quickly or too slowly. That's basically exactly what I'm proposing, but for item drops.

I camped that NM, it was my fight and I had little to no chance of getting that drop. But I did.

Good for you. So you think that someone that has camped that NM longer than you, killed it more times than you, and wants the item just as bad as you doesn't deserve to get it because they have bad luck?

FFXIClopedia says there's a %10 chance of that bow dropping. From the way you write, I assume you got it on your first kill. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's say you've been camping it for awhile. You've killed it 15 times with no drop. Why should someone who just happens to pass through and get claim have an equal chance at getting the drop as you have? You have clearly been trying harder to get the item, you have clearly put in more work, you have been there longer and made more kills. Even if he deserves a good shot as well, you should not have no better idea if it's going to drop the 16th time than the first.

Again, I am not saying it should be made easier-- you should not have an easier time claiming, it should not give you an easier fight, it shouldn't even begin to spawn sooner. But once you earn your kill, you should have a better chance of gaining the item.

Another worst case scenario, let's say you claim the NM for the 16th time and work it down to near death. Another RNG who was camping it is there. You disconnect, and the second the mob turns white, he EESs it for the kill. In the current random system, he has a chance of getting the item, absolutely no work put in. You lose everything. In the system I'm proposing, he would have a much smaller chance of getting the item (assuming he hasn't been camping it previously.), and there's a chance that you would log back in to find the bow in your inventory. If you didn't get the drop, you would find at least that the next time you killed it, your chances were higher still.




BBQ, I get that you like to argue, but please think about your criticisms before you post-- they range from deeply misunderstanding what I'm saying to being as thin as paper.

[Takelli]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing? Part of the excitement in getting this gear is that its a gamble. The satisfaction should come from knowing you worked for it and that its still rare.

Well... What about the people who have killed the same NM over 50 times! I have killed BOTH O-Kote, and the Fuma drop NM over a total of 50 times!

There is no way that I will shell out over 1 million gil for just these two items on the AH, when I can't even make that kind of money, in the amount of time these two monsters should have dropped the O-kote, and the Fuma.

I like how Feba's idea gives the players what they have worked for. The more you kill a monster, the better of a chance the item should drop. I think that all R/Ex items that drop from normal NM should increase drop chance the more you kill it, then once you get the item, it goes back to what it was before.

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

[/rant]

[Malacite]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Imagine everyone having a Ridill.

Ridill sucks.

Also, saw this at BG and LOVED IT ^^




Pretty good artwork too over at DA.


EDIT:

Good for you. So you think that someone that has camped that NM longer than you, killed it more times than you, and wants the item just as bad as you doesn't deserve to get it because they have bad luck?

Sweet Jesus 1000 times this ^

So sick of the Dev Team refusing to fix Zilart End Game because too many people would be butt hurt over all the "work" they did to get their stuff by luck. Let's not kid ourselves here, Luck is the single greatest factor in everything in this game and it's high time SE changed that.

I want the challenge to be the fight, not praying for the drop or trying to out claim 40+ people. Something that can actually be measured by skill and/or determination and not just blind luck. And you honestly believe that things like Relic Weapons and Salvage gear are truly powerful well then... idk man.

Yes, they're damn good pieces of gear but more people having them would be far from game breaking. Need I remind you yet again of the 1 truly broken equipment in the game...

[Aksannyi]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Ridill sucks.

Zerg fights say it doesn't.

And in before "Zerg isn't the way this game was meant to be played." It's a viable mechanic for playing the game and how the hell do you expect to kill KV or Dynamis Lord without it? (Are the major examples, something with perhaps a horridly high regen and damaging TP attacks, but the same stills stands for others such as Bv2, Dyna-Valk boss, etc.) Obviously it wasn't the way the Devs wanted us to take out AV, (assholes, lol, let us have our fun) but they would have fixed it a long time ago if it wasn't meant to be used. You think we zerg only with Kraken clubs? No one in the linkshell even has one. Ridills and Mkris do the job.

I don't think Ridill sucks. It's got its uses, situationally like just about everything else in the game.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

And in before "Zerg isn't the way this game was meant to be played." It's a viable mechanic for playing the game and how the hell do you expect to kill KV or Dynamis Lord without it? (Are the major examples, something with perhaps a horridly high regen and damaging TP attacks, but the same stills stands for others such as Bv2, Dyna-Valk boss, etc.) Obviously it wasn't the way the Devs wanted us to take out AV, (assholes, lol, let us have our fun) but they would have fixed it a long time ago if it wasn't meant to be used. You think we zerg only with Kraken clubs? No one in the linkshell even has one. Ridills and Mkris do the job.

After trying to read it, my brain rendered this paragraph as illegible to save itself. =/

[hexx]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Well... What about the people who have killed the same NM over 50 times! I have killed BOTH O-Kote, and the Fuma drop NM over a total of 50 times!

There is no way that I will shell out over 1 million gil for just these two items on the AH, when I can't even make that kind of money, in the amount of time these two monsters should have dropped the O-kote, and the Fuma.

I like how Feba's idea gives the players what they have worked for. The more you kill a monster, the better of a chance the item should drop. I think that all R/Ex items that drop from normal NM should increase drop chance the more you kill it, then once you get the item, it goes back to what it was before.

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

[/rant]

I agree, and disagree with some of the points you and Feba make.

1- I disagree that someone who has been camping (and killing) an NM longer than others should get a better drop rate, its like telling a CC that they should leave and let you claim because you have been there for X amount of hours, and the CC just showed up. Ya win some, ya lose some, deal with it (BTW im 0/135 on both okote and s.kyahan NMs)

2- As far as certain NM's being force spawns, that I'm all for. I dont have the time to join an HNM LS for the chance at a N.Head or M.Body (altho Einherjar kinda fixes this), I have a full time job and family to deal with, so makin myself available at all hours of the day just isnt viable for me.

[Feba]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I disagree that someone who has been camping (and killing) an NM longer than others should get a better drop rate, its like telling a CC that they should leave and let you claim because you have been there for X amount of hours, and the CC just showed up.

Not at all. The other player should have every right to claim the monster and have a chance at a drop, and have the opportunity to earn a similar benefit towards getting a drop. It's not a matter of "disadvantaging people who have just started camping something", it's a matter of "keeping people from going 0/20 on an item with a %20 drop rate". If the other person starts to camp against you, and they're just as or more skilled in terms of getting claims and killing it, their drop rate should go up exactly as yours has-- it's not to give the advantage to people who have been there longer, so that putting in more work means you get the item first. It's to keep the game from being harsher than it is intended to one person, and a cakewalk for another. Carbuncle's Ruby is another great advantage of this-- I was lucky enough to be in a full alliance that was culling leaches across multiple zones (bubu and maze) and it still took us a few hours to get just two rubies.

Another aim of the system is to get around senority like that in LS systems, and make it both more and less random. More random in the sense that you aren't waiting in line for an item, and you never know who the next person in your LS to get one will be. Less in that you're far less sure of getting a drop. This also gets around a big source of drama.

[Elwynn]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

Meanwhile, I got a drop of a garrison pop item yesterday while farming an Ugg key for Windurst 9-2. Which I will drop when I get around to it, because nobody cares about garrison fights any more. But this is the model that should be used for Rare/Ex NMs. Rare-drop pop items and decent (if not spectacular) drop rates from the NM without having to find a THF. No need to camp the NM, and when you get the pop item, you can take your time getting a group together to fight it.

[Raydeus]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I tried to imagine everyone having L. boots and Emp. Hairpin and...

Z O M G ! I couldn't sleep afterwards. Just imagining items in the game not being one of a kind really messed with my e-feelings of uniqueness leetness and e-superiority. I didn't feel special anymore either, which will probably require years of therapy to heal.

Why SE, why?!











...what? <_<;

Ok, ok, I know.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

To be honest, I like camping mobs. Think of it like this. You get your Cloud Evokers from doing ENM. Cloud Evokers are used to enter the Ouryu battlefield. We get some within the ls, and we also pop evokers for outside people and give them most of the drops (we keep the Monarch's Orb with which to pop Bv2). People are okay with this, as most of the time if they are using us for their evoker, they don't have a group to do Bv2 with either.

Now, when we go to do Ouryu, we'll often have six - nine of them lined up. Each Ouryu fight takes a bit to deal with, in that we have to get ourselves in and get buffed, kill it, exit, sort drops, decide who is popping the next orb, etc. Six Ouryus takes roughly about 2 and half hours, possibly more. And we're not going to go do two or three per day, we're gonna bulk schedule them so that we don't have to worry about the travel time involved. By the time you get to that last Ouryu, you're fucking wiped out. People start to get lazy, people leave early thus making it harder on all involved, etc.

Now imagine if you needed a pop item to go kill Fafnir. We'd schedule seven or eight a night, and the drop would probably be rare enough that you'd go every few months or so (same frequency we do Ouryu). Seven or eight Fafnirs in two months is less than we get to fight now, even with claiming competition. And I'm not sure I'd really want to do a bunch of Tiamats back to back, or Khimairas. Especially if we were one of those linkshells that takes three hours per Tiamat. X.X You'd be exhausted after one, let alone three or four. Would you HAVE to schedule it that way? No, of course not, but how many times a week do you want to run to the Chasm? Or Aery? If you didn't have to, daily, for a pop I mean.

And let's be honest, part of the fun of camping HNMs is that one claim where only four people are there and you have to fight to hold it. Those test your mettle as a player. Do you know that I held Khim once with another WHM and two RDM/NIN for twenty minutes until our support got there? I don't remember that HNM fight we had a full alliance and an outside party for, I remember the ones with less than seven people. The party is changing constantly, the fights are always different. I remember the Fafnir that I claimed (yes, I claimed, it was hitting me!), but I wouldn't remember one that I force popped.

I don't think it would be that fun. Do I get up at all hours of the night for NMs? Sometimes, if I'm desperately needed, other times I never get a phone call. I'll admit it takes a lot of patience because losing claim after claim after claim is frustrating, but it's a lot more rewarding when you do get it and you see someone get something they've wanted for a long time. I just don't think it would quite be the same if it were any other way.

And also, I don't want to fight seven Tiamats in one night. XD

[Armando]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Now imagine if you needed a pop item to go kill Fafnir. We'd schedule seven or eight a night, and the drop would probably be rare enough that you'd go every few months or so (same frequency we do Ouryu). Seven or eight Fafnirs in two months is less than we get to fight now, even with claiming competition. And I'm not sure I'd really want to do a bunch of Tiamats back to back, or Khimairas. Especially if we were one of those linkshells that takes three hours per Tiamat. X.X You'd be exhausted after one, let alone three or four. Would you HAVE to schedule it that way? No, of course not, but how many times a week do you want to run to the Chasm? Or Aery? If you didn't have to, daily, for a pop I mean.

I think this is why BBQ suggested an ENM-like system.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

To be honest, I like camping mobs.

Ok, seriously, why does my mind keep on giving you enough credibility to start reading your posts? It filters out Malacite just fine. <_<

[hexx]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I like camping mobs too just fine Aks, its the ones with ridiculous pop times that get on my nerves. The game tells you before you fully log in to not forget your friends, family, and life outside the game, yet makes some of the coolest items unreachable to someone who wants to both play, AND maintain an active social life.