Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

[Yellow Mage]

Preface: I titled this thread "Also" to distinguish it from Taskmage's "Hypothetical RMT Countermeasure" thread.







Let's say someone decides to start up an event linkshell, and we'll assume whatever recruiting method they use works (I'm sure linkshell recruitment methods are discussed in another thread . . . ). This linkshell is formed around the concept of setting up a "temporary static" for whichever event you can think of.

The event is done until everybody gets what they need from this event, with the leader automatically getting lowest priority on whatever rewards maybe be involved. This way, all the pearlholders get what they want first, and thus their loyalty to the linkshell after they get what they want from X event can be shown by how often they go to any linkshell events even after they receive whichever items they may need from them, and more obviously, the linkshell does not exist simply to fulfill the leader's whims.

Attendance to said events is measured by how often you do said event whenever you are online. Thus, if you simply can't be online that day, then it wouldn't matter nearly as much as, say, you were off doing something else entirely in game. Someone who shows a particular amount of support for the linkshell and its events may become a sackholder by the leader's request. However, all sackholders' priorities for receiving rewards from events are placed immediately before the leader's. If they are that determined to see the linkshell work for everybody's benefit, reward priority shouldn't be much of an issue to these people anyway.

Obviously, with this sort of "funnel" structure with how rewards are prioritized, it is important that those at the bottom of the funnel have a few mild benefits to go along with it as well. Firstly, all events and their scheduling are ultimately handled by the leader, keeping the wants, needs, and abilities of the rest of the shell well in mind. Sackholders, who would be given the duty to help represent what the majority of the linkshell wants (as they will have/will be recruiting some of them), will also be given weight in the decision. Because the leader always has lowest priority in getting event rewards, it would make sense to leave it in their hands to decide whenever the linkshell's participation in one event has concluded, and they can immediately decide upon the next one (as they can plan for the future events in between current ones).

Anybody can leave the shell at will, however, they will be barred from re-entry unless their appeal is approved by a majority of the sackholders and by the leader.

So, is there anything I'm overlooking in this concept? I had thought about it this morning, and I want to know what you guys think. Is there any potential failing to this structure that hinders or prevents people from helping each other getting what they need done done? Once again, though, this plan is entirely hypothetical: I personally am not going to be making a linkshell any time soon.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

You would have to be the most humble leader - practically Mother Theresa in this case - to have the patience to put yourself that far behind to ensure loyalty. Leaders do their share of the work, too.

This is a good opportunity to expand on the the discussion of leadership.

See, bad leaders love being leaders.They revel in it. Let it get to their heads that nothing can be accomplished without their presence. They would never stand for being put last because everyone is a helpless noob to them and if they want to have good gear, then they should toil away for the leadership of the LS and anyone else that kisses the asses of the leaders.

Good leaders tolerate being leaders and don't stress so much. Then there are people like me who will lead out of necessity. We will realize a certain level of morale needs to be maintained, however if you act too selfless, people will pick up on that and take advantage of you. There are people that use endgame linkshells as stepping stones just as much as they did social linkshells. They tend to possess the same personality type as the person with a dozen social LS linkpearls.

The irony is that after all the begging for help and all the stepping stones, when they've secured themselves in an "elite" HNMLS, they'll turn around and tell you "its all about teamwork."

So I came to learn where to draw the line. There used to be this guy in the LBR LS and LBR forum that would do nothing but ask for help with things. The only difference was he was a show applicant with a small chip on his shoulder, he always hoped or thought he was going to be in-line to be on a RDM episode. He thought he was this super uber-duper RDM, yet did things like teach people how to get out of subbing WHM and sat around begging for help each time he put on the pearl, of which he had several.

Because denying part of a job's potential and showing us that we're stepping stones is totally going to get you on the show. Then Hyrist came along and not only applied, but fufilled many of the criteria we had put in place for that job's appearance on the show. Well, this other guy left us for the server PFA resides on and basically tried the same thing there, I'm pretty sure the PFA crew had the same reaction we did. He's not going to be a star there, either.

See, ever since I started playing MMOs, I've noticed that people seem to feel they can become a star in these games. If they can get in/kead an HNMLS, be on a podcast or thrust into the community spotlight in some other way, then I suppose in their minds this somehow validates or vindicates them.

But they don't want to put in the work that someone like Aniero or Elmer the Pointy does to get that attention. Its just like those people giddy about getting titles and having HNMLS pearls - its not about doing the work and being a truly talented person, its just about the status to some of these folks.

Knowing all this, would I toil away at my own expense to fufill everyone's dreams?

Hell no.

I'll bust ass for those that prove they'd do the same for me. If I help you several times, but don't see you volunteering to help others and only see you showing up for things that get you points towards gear... well, let's just say there's a limit to my help.

I'm all for selfless actions, but only those where points aren't involved. I won't toil at the expense of people that wouldn't help others if points toward weren't involved. These people show their true dedication pretty fast. If they see me as a means to an end, I can very much treat them the same.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Very wise and experienced post, surely a bunch of stuff to keep in mind.

I suppose I had thought it to be assumed that the leader for this theoretical shell wouldn't put up with crap. Maybe I should have added "You can also be kicked out by so-and-so method" somewhere in there along with the "you can leave at will" part; the being barred from re-entry part was specifically written with being kicked out in mind more so than just having left.

I don't think I had mentioned anything about points being involved, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Well, sometimes you do have to put up with the crap, especially on the lower population servers. You'd thnk people would get away with more shit on larger servers, but they actually get away with less because leadership is afforded the luxury of being so much more picky.

Sure, you might have a BRD and that alone may bring a leader to their knee on another server like Titan or Pandemonium, but Odin? Bahamut? Plenty of other fish in the sea there. You are not a unique or special snowflake. If you try to pull shit you will be removed and word will get around about you.

But in some cases, particularly smaller smaller servers, you make have to keep Shithead, Jerkface and Asshat around for a bit to get anything done for the LS. That's where a lot of the stress in leadership can come in - there are people you simply can't stand and want to get rid of, but that would directly affect the people who are good and you want to keep around. All because of job balance and availablity.

Also, its not just "getting stuff" that drives players in these shells, but frequency of events. Hell, people underestimate the power of the leadership position even. If the leader of a social LS is gone for a stretch of time, the people who look to him for help or just conversation will eventually leave. Doesn't matter how many sacks you have online or if they are there all the time, you are a sack, not the leader. Followers make this distinction almost all the time without giving it voice by being there or not being there depending upon the presence of the leader.

I've tried to impress this upon LS leaders in the past, but they naively tell me I have nothing to worry about. Then the shell falls apart. I'm helpful, full of information, but without that deeply hued pearl symbolizing my absolute leadership in-game, I'm far from magnetic. Oh, people stuck around in those CoP pearls I had, because people honestly believed that without me, they could not get Sea access. I never said that or even acted like it, its just the difference in attitudes between a leader and a follower. Some people want other people doing the thinking for them. They want to be assured things will go smoothly and that ends will be met.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

High concepts in the OP, but the details are few.

Do points from an event (say, Limbus) only count toward that event, or do they influence lotting rights for all events (say, Sky, Nyzul Isle, etc.)?

Why should leader(s) be treated lower than anyone else? Isn't a linkshell a union among equals, just that everyone has slightly different roles? If the concept of a point system is that people who do more for the LS should get more benefits, then doesn't automatically setting the leader on the lowest priority, in effect, means the extra effort the leader puts in counts for negative points?

How do you balance between members who have been in LS longer and have accumulated more points and the newer people with little to no history in the system? Do newer people get nothing for a long time to prove their loyalty? Or, use tiered priority to limit the advantages of longer time to accumulate higher point total?

Should Mission runs be given points, even though all members (who need the mission) are already rewarded equally by mission advancement (and whatever zone or item access)?

* * *

The lack of concrete details makes me think you haven't been in many event LS or in LS with working point/reward system, YM. All system have flaws; if and when you create your own LS, just make sure the drawbacks are not too severe while using the system to promote attendance.

Once you've a real system in mind, can post it on public forum again let others pick it apart--that's usually the fastest way to root out major problems. (Obviously, don't become emotionally invested in any plan you dream up just because it's yours--be detached and analytical when it comes to structural issues.)

* * *

The desire to lead and enjoy the trappings of power (whatever 'prestige' being an "officer of a guild in a game" really offers) is not necessarily a bad thing.

A good leader is a fair person who gives a group direction and motivation while setting boundaries to limit potential problems. If anything, someone who leads eagerly probably will do a better job than someone who does so reluctantly, given equal abilities and circumstances.

A greedy fool will be terrible as a leader, eager for the job or not. Actually, such a person is terrible just for sucking the oxygen out of the air, just that he or she will be capable of more damage if somehow wrangled a leadership role.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Do points from an event

If the concept of a point system is that people who do more for the LS should get more benefits, then doesn't automatically setting the leader on the lowest priority, in effect, means the extra effort the leader puts in counts for negative points?

who have been in LS longer and have accumulated more points

Should Mission runs be given points,

makes me think you haven't been in many event LS or in LS with working point/reward system, YM.

No, I have not been in any point-based linkshell at all as of yet, but perhaps I haven't made myself clear:

I don't think I had mentioned anything about points being involved,

Itaz, you have made quite a few assumptions from, what you yourself has said was a concept with not that many details to it.

As far as why the leader is at the bottom of the priority list for rewards, getting events done in a way that benefits everybody involved for the effort they put in should be the leader's priority, not just getting shiny lootz.

And for why I didn't put in that many details in the first place, it was because I didn't want to become to attached to this concept: one gets more attached to something the more work they put in to it, no? To be perfectly blunt, this whole thing was just an idea from this morning I just wanted to get out of my head.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

The only real problem that point systems present in FFXI is that SE left it completely in the hands of the players, for better or worse, assuming players are good little angels instead of the self-serving bastards they can be. They could have, from the start, implemented an internal DKP system. We've seen such systems implemented later in the game as they did with Assault or even FoV.

This would have removed a lot of human error had it been in the LS system from day one, not to mention it would have made the reputiations of bad leaders more apparent since they'd have to outright kick people who had more points than they did to get things they wanted instead of botching point totals and throwing around attendance rules. Numbers handled by a computer tend not to lie.

[Feba]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

one thing I like about YM's system is that it would feed leadegos by having them serve everyone and be praised for it, instead of purely getting their own material rewards. In the same way, though, it's kinda unrealistic.

anyway, BBQ, by having it built in, do you mean on a per-LS basis as your thing about kicking people implies? That seems like a horrible idea. Really, I think FFXI ought to just drop the whole "random drops" thing and replace it with point systems and %100 drops for almost everything. Or at least, have drops be rewarded on an individual basis, which is based on points. For example, if you go in to Dynamis as an RDM, at the end you will get a random amount of EXP/meripo (instead of scrolls), currency, and relic drops. How much of what drops would be based on the total number of mobs your group killed, other various factors in Dynamis, and an 'invisible' point system the game itself would use to keep track of how many Dynamis (or whatever other endgame event you go to) runs you had done in total, how many you had done without getting an item, how many you had done in that area, etc. A player in a group that cleared most of the mobs, and had gone to many runs recently without getting anything would have a very high chance of getting their much awaited item, while someone who had just started would have a much lower chance. It also would be less frustrating, as you would know that every time you go without an item, you have a higher chance of getting a reward next time.

Such a system would also prevent things like an item someone wanted getting dropped while they weren't there, and going to someone who had that job at level 30. It would also keep people from lotting on items they haven't earned yet, or shadow lotting things at the last second. Plus, items would never be lost because they were dropped at the last second; every kill would help. For currency runs, the buyer of the hourglass could be set as 'quartermaster' for all currency that drops, to ensure nobody is sneaking off with a personal stash.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

No, I have not been in any point-based linkshell at all as of yet, but perhaps I haven't made myself clear

Hmm. I see. How you plan to compare effort of one person to another in an objective way without some sort numerical system?

As far as why the leader is at the bottom of the priority list for rewards, getting events done in a way that benefits everybody involved for the effort they put in should be the leader's priority, not just getting shiny lootz.

It is unfair not to treat leaders as equal to others, when it comes to loot.

And for why I didn't put in that many details in the first place, it was because I didn't want to become to attached to this concept: one gets more attached to something the more work they put in to it, no? To be perfectly blunt, this whole thing was just an idea from this morning I just wanted to get out of my head.

Run a few LS events; that will help you refine your ideas.

[godsaiyan]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Let's have an example of how I tend to deal with events. I would create a list of all members within the LS interested and make each person aware that they would be needed to do the event more than once, e.g. prommy runs. Then i would work on a alphabetacal system of player's names, but then say for each event, i would rotate who gets priority on doing events, claiming items, etc. I have found this a very good way to find out the loyal members from the rest.

Granted this has taken some time to do and can be quite risky but it has worked out very well with positive feedback, and my LS has come out of it's slow days and picked up on business again

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Hmm. I see. How you plan to compare effort of one person to another in an objective way without some sort numerical system?

A bit of a loaded question, but I'll bite: I would assume the leader would have enough common sense to tell who's there genuinely for the betterment of everyone in the linkshell, and who would just be there "grinding" for points. Like 'kitten said:

I won't toil at the expense of people that wouldn't help others if points toward weren't involved. These people show their true dedication pretty fast.

It is unfair not to treat leaders as equal to others, when it comes to loot.

While true, it's even less fair for the leader, the person organizing the events in the first place, to grab their loot and then suddenly decide that something else needs to be done, before everybody involved gets what they want. The leader will always get what they want eventually anyway, as, again, the leader is the one organizing the events.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

Feba, the key problem with your idea is that under it, rare items would cease to be rare. Rare, powerful items becoming common tends to disrupt the balance of the game. Even if getting the item was a given, there should be a lot of work put in to get it as to not disrupt the time people used to put in to get these things.

My concept is just let the system itself regulate everything. Signet, Sigil and Sanction already have various functions. Rather than have leaders or sacks manipulating numbers to their advantage or simply removing competition by kicking them, I think they could make an in-game "guild" run by NPCs where you register you character, LS you're affliated with and they track your progress by simply using signet and slaying certain monsters. Once you accumulate enough points, you can obtain those rewards without the fuss of drama or "priority."

If leaders and sacks don't know what your points are, they can't manipulate point totals or kick you. It also diminishes their power to discourage bad leaders from taking up the role o start with. People would probably also show up more frequently to events knowing their contributions will indeed be counted and special things like CoP pop NMs can be put under the umbrella.

FFXI's core problem with the drop system isn't so much that its random as it is people aren't rewarded equally. I have no reason to came Aspid, KB, or Fafhogg except for the "teamwork" bullshit. Blowing three hours of my time is not teamwork, its blowing three hours of my time.

Of course, being able to pop HNMs (at least the kings) these days would also help. Getting rid of the timesink would motivate players to attend such fights. They could balance it out like KSNM or ENM so people couldn't spam it forever.

[Raydeus]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

I guess asking SE to let me have a full alliance of gambit tweaked NPCs to help me with all the stuff I want to get done in game is too much to ask, huh?

Having a LS run smoothly is a combination of skill, charisma and a lot of luck. Nothing I'd like to get myself into, that's for sure.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

A bit of a loaded question, but I'll bite: I would assume the leader would have enough common sense to tell who's there genuinely for the betterment of everyone in the linkshell, and who would just be there "grinding" for points.

No offense, but I wouldn't trust you (or myself) to eyeball something as simple as melee hit rate, much less go by 'feelings' to judge who put in more efforts than others and to what degree. Numerical systems in practice are by no means free from biases, but the alternative of free-form human subjectivity is far worse, IMO.

While true, it's even less fair for the leader, the person organizing the events in the first place, to grab their loot and then suddenly decide that something else needs to be done, before everybody involved gets what they want. The leader will always get what they want eventually anyway, as, again, the leader is the one organizing the events.

If you have people like that leading, the LS will fail no matter which system you try.

The only time your idea can be implement it would with unselfish leaders in charge--whom you punish with your unfair system. Greedy people will set up their own LS to have it their way, if they can't manipulate an existing one into doing their bidding. The morally bankrupted people you seek to repress would not subject themselves to your ideals to begin with.

I take strong exception to this idea of leader get lower priority because of my own LS. We don't have a single dictator--anyone can run events, or start something new. To force any of my fellow LS mates to get less than other people for WANTING TO HELP lead events MAKES NO SENSE whatsoever.

[Feba]

Re: Also Hypothetical Linkshell Concept

bbq, where in the world did I mention anything about making items less rare?

I just said to make the randomness based on past experience instead of just being random drops. They could even make it rarer, but it would be less frustrating. You would get your hat, instead of a randomly dropped hat. You wouldn't fight LS members over drops, but that doesn't mean there would be more drops. It would just distribute drops more fairly for people that have done more, and not allow your LS to unfairly take an item that you've by all means earned, or vice versa. It would keep the leader's friend from getting everything they want as soon as it drops, and force them to go along right with everyone else. Great thing about my system is you don't have to mess with the canon of finding relic in dynamis, or anything else, just change it to you finding it on your person once you leave instead of on the monsters. Earning points to collect it from an in-game agency would require the origins of pretty much every item this would be an issue for would need big canon changes. Maybe say "in the confusion, you obtained a <shiny hat>!" or something. Another great thing about points being invisible, and currency being handed out on a person-by-person basis if the hourglass buyer wishes, your LS can't force you to surrender anything, or threaten you, or mistreat you over your drops.

The system can be applied to HNMs, just have items go directly into peoples' inventory like with quarter master.