Elmer's NA to JP interview

[Ziero]

Over at BG, Elmer the Pointy started a thread to get questions from NA players to the JP community and the responses came in today. You can read the whole thing here:

JPButton ? JP Answers to EN Questions - 英質問→和回ç”

It's some interesting stuff, a lot of what they feel is the same as NA/EU players yet other things are the exact opposite. He's going to do the same thing with JPs asking NAs questions soon, so I guess if you want to chime in keep an eye on that topic.

edit: Also, shouldn't this be considered community news?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

Well, not surprised by JPs answers on the job playstyle question - they just play too conservatively.

I don't COR/WHM in general EXP/Merit PTs because if healing is really, really needed I can sub /DNC without weakening my gear setup to do it. It will improve my buffs or allow more flexibility to buffs thanks to Steps and provide healing as needed without losing too much in the way of DD capability.

COR/WHM in the merit situation isn't more efficient, its only more efficient than COR/NIN and less than COR/RNG and COR/DNC. For some events /WHM will win out, but I'll be damned if I show up to a city Dynamis or non-boss Limbus anything less than /DNC.

[Mhurron]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

See this face? Does it look surprised?

"It’s pretty intriguing to see how both sides are convinced their play style is optimal, and the other side is detrimental."

Except for their 'Japanese players always do the right thing' that a number of them threw in, most of the critiques are pretty close to a whole lot of other peoples complaints.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

See this face? Does it look surprised?

It looks kinda sad.

[Mhurron]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

OOOO clever. Did you think of that all by yourself?

[Raydeus]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

It would've been really nice if he had included that xp/hr question there.

My best xp (without being the BRD) has always been in JP parties so I'm curious about what they think is the optimal rate.

[Lmnop]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

On the COR thing... I find it funny that it's worded like the most obvious parts are missing. It's like they're saying:

-NA players play COR as ghetto ranger (and probably only ever use rolls that buff themselves).
-JP players sub WHM because they know damage isn't the key. So they play it just like brd.

Doesn't it seem like neither perspective actually approaches the way COR is supposed to be played? A Cor/Rng contributes damage (and contributing at all is always a good thing) while buffing. Pulling aside (any job that's going to make sure a fresh pull is always in camp will always be at a disadvantage damage-wise), I don't see how focusing on only one or the other is at all perceived as efficient.

/shrug. I know lots of DNCs just like to debuff+Haste samba 'til they can Reverse Flourish -> Dancing Edge.

[Malacite]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

Well, Lv5 Haste Samba + Double March = 30% Haste which is a pretty massive boost.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

On the COR thing... I find it funny that it's worded like the most obvious parts are missing. It's like they're saying:

-NA players play COR as ghetto ranger (and probably only ever use rolls that buff themselves).
-JP players sub WHM because they know damage isn't the key. So they play it just like brd.

Doesn't it seem like neither perspective actually approaches the way COR is supposed to be played? A Cor/Rng contributes damage (and contributing at all is always a good thing) while buffing. Pulling aside (any job that's going to make sure a fresh pull is always in camp will always be at a disadvantage damage-wise), I don't see how focusing on only one or the other is at all perceived as efficient.

/shrug. I know lots of DNCs just like to debuff+Haste samba 'til they can Reverse Flourish -> Dancing Edge.

Thing that got me was the guy that said "If I wanted a COR to DD, I'd just invite a RNG."

That guy wouldn't take a RNG if it was seeking. There's a reason for this. CORs and RNGs can easily compete on the epeen front when given the opportunity, especially RNG. The PT I was in the other week, the WAR swore up and down that the update gimped him somehow, no, I was just outdamaging him by a wide margin on my RNG and he wasn't used to it, using the oh-so-taboo /SAM sub at that.

A good COR is going to buff for the PT and hopefully that will benefit themselves as well, it usually does. The COR buffing for themselves is generally COR/WAR or COR/WHM. COR/WAR gives up the accuracy, so its looking for the excuse to make some up by doing Hunters. COR/WHM is reliant on Evoker's Roll to succeed and the way Phantom Roll works makes it much less accessable to COR than Ballad to a BRD/WHM, who can just spam that.

So you have to tier down your cycle to three or even two buffs to make COR/WHM get MP back, on top of any Sanction/Sigil refresh.

I won't deny there are bad COR/RNGs. They'll dumb it down to two buff cycles and just TP with thier knives so much it gets to the point you wish they had come /WHM. COR/NINs are usually worse and more useless than either.

Its not that COR/WHM is bad, its just problematic unless you're in a situation where you can just keep Evoker's up and I don't like trying to focus buffs on myself as a COR or a BRD - and BRD is incredibly guilty of this as they'll whore out haste to everyone just because it benefits them, too.

And no one ever calls them on it but who?

COR and RNG since haste doesn't affect ranged attacks. Sometimes MNKs as well because the ones with BBs can cap haste easier than most and would prefer something more than March x2.

[Malacite]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

The most fun I've had on COR so far (only lv 24) was going from levels 22~24 in an hour in Qufim Island >.> (pre FoV btw)

I ended up tanking lmao 'cause I was eating Rice Dumplings and getting Double Minuet from the BRD. We also had a RNG and DRK in the part lmao and at one point I'd rolled an XI on both Hunter's and Chaos so needless to say those crabs were dieing fast (one died in about 15~20 seconds).

Was shooting craps for 140+ a shot, blew the PT's mind >.>b

Oh and I was COR/RNG. The fact that I was spunging MP didn't matter worth a damn since the crabs died before they had a chance to even hurt me much XD

[Raydeus]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

It all depends on the setup, meriting lately I've played with good COR and with really-wth-are-you-playing-rng-or-something?! CORs like the ones described in posts above.

And I have to say a good COR will not only add to the dmg but also give very good buffs*, which frees me as a BRD to pull non-stop. And I love parties like that because they are the most fun.

So, my current favorite non-JP setup is definitely BRD+healer**+COR+DDx4 with all DD /nin. Also, if I ever intend to play RDM main healer again I think I'll have to lvl SCH first, 'cause it looks like a really good sub for that.





PS > That setup doesn't add up? That's because the COR is good enough to not only be included as full support, but also deals good dmg to help kill mobs faster when possible, without letting the DD part take over. That's what IMO makes a good COR.


PPS > In a way that's what a frontline RDM should be able to do, but the lack of AoE support makes them completely uselss in that role and easily replaced by SCH AoE buffs.


PPPS > Damnit, I still haven't partied with any cute Hume SCH girls. Woe is me. (T-T )

PPPPS > I'm still alive.

I mean...

** For the first time I'm able to say WHM/SCH works just as good as RDM as endurance main healer in fast paced parties (with a COR), which is pretty good considering they have the cool Regens and stuff.

[Malacite]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

I was also giving the WHM Healer's Roll so no, I didn't sacrifice my buff cycle (except during that double 11... maaaan that was awesome >_>)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

So you have to tier down your cycle to three or even two buffs to make COR/WHM get MP back, on top of any Sanction/Sigil refresh.

I can remember exactly two occasions with COR/WHM in merit parties, and both were at the Greater Colibri camp.

I, er, ... Refreshed them both. (Both of them made heavy use of their /WHM; one was JP, one was not.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

I can remember exactly two occasions with COR/WHM in merit parties, and both were at the Greater Colibri camp.

I, er, ... Refreshed them both. (Both of them made heavy use of their /WHM; one was JP, one was not.)

Wow, you refreshed them? Naw...

The situations listed in Elmer's article noted that these COR/WHMs were main healing. Meaning they were the only healer. Given that to be the case here how could they even hope to keep up without keeping Evoker's Roll up and Dancer's Roll to boot? That's two buffs I'd want up constantly if I were mainhealing as a COR if I didn't have refresh support. I'd never do it, but it doesn't mean I don't have the knowledge to apply the skill behind it. I am a RDM and SCH, too.

Sorry, /NIN is good, but its not that good on other people. They will take damage eventually and COR would have to spend the MP. Not to mention a main-healing COR is going to have to stuff every slot with MP to keep up when major damage goes down and give up a four buff cycle to pull of main heal.

Job design note: We don't get MP naturally, only by sub and gear.
Job design note #2: Much of the gear SE creates for CORs does not come with MP.
Job design note #3: Yes we can refresh MP, does that mean we have to sub /WHM? No. (See: BRD, Also: Hi2u SMN/WHM and Auto Refresh).

Now to me, when we waltz into territory where the subjob defines the main job and people gear jobs in the opposite direction of intended design, we have a problem.

WHM gives COR, as a main job, nothing. All the things it "gives" COR can be used the same way by any other job. So why don't those other jobs just sub it and stack on MP gear? I can refresh them.

RDM, BLU, DNC, RNG and WAR all supplement main job functions on COR. MAB affects Quick Draw. Steps can enhance the effectiveness of my buffs. Accuracy Bonus helps the swords and guns I'm given. Attack Bonus, Berzerk and Warcry boost damage output.

/WHM doesn't do any of that. If you need healing so bad I'd rather show up WHM main or not at all.

But you see, there's another underlying thred of logic here.

I pay more than anyone else in the game to do my job. Do you pay 150k for 1,188 chances to hit a mob? Nope, that's a COR with Steel Bullets or a RNG rocking Kabura Arrows.

That means - at least in terms of EXP or merits - I play my way or I keep seeking. My time, my gil and you are not entitled to my services. I'll save /WHM for endgame functions where its warranted and your CORs can take the first invite they see.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Elmer's NA to JP interview

Wow, you refreshed them? Naw...

The situations listed in Elmer's article noted that these COR/WHMs were main healing. Meaning they were the only healer. Given that to be the case here how could they even hope to keep up without keeping Evoker's Roll up and Dancer's Roll to boot? That's two buffs I'd want up constantly if I were mainhealing as a COR if I didn't have refresh support.

I think something is misunderstood.

Japanese players would have a mage for Haste--the main use of COR/WHM would be to buff (including Corsair's Roll) and cure--meaning curing isn't a lesser duty. The mage (RDM or WHM) would also cure as well, on top of Haste (and Refresh) duty.

The COR/WHM would be using three rolls in merit parties, and one would be Evoker's. (Corsair's Roll and one melee buff round the rest.) However, he wouldn't be the only source of curing--that's just too un-Japanese like. I've done enough JP-majority parties to be pretty confident that the 99.99%+ of JP party leaders would not have a COR/WHM as the only source of HP recovery.