Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

[Mezlo]

So what WS's that you get from the Nyzul weapons are better than the old ones jobs used to use? I got rana for sam, but it seems rana's damage is not better than gekko, so I've continued using gekko, but use rana > gekko to make a dark skillchain when sekkanoki is up. Are all new WS's this way? Only good for making a different kind of skillchain? I've heard atonement kicks ass, so thats the next one im going to get for my pld. Just wondering on the other jobs...

[Armando]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

The whole point of Rana is the skillchain attributes. Besides Rana > Gekko it also makes stronger Meikyo Shisui chains by allowing for more Level 2 skillchains before the final Level 3.

Drakesbane beats Penta Thrust, it's only 4 hits but it can critical.

King's Justice is about on par with Raging Rush I think, people report mysterious damage spikes on it. A Raging Rush-caliber WS with level 2 attributes is a great thing damage spikes or not though.

Mystic Boon is a club-based Spirit Taker. Won't do as much as a Hexa Strike but there's no arguing with its usefulness.

[hexx]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Some of the Nyzul WS are more situational than anything else. Yes Rana is useful for laying down the pwnage, and Atonement just rocks as PLD (once you have built up hate). King's Justice does decent damage, but I find it somewhat inconsistent........and Blade: Kamu is pretty good for when you are tanking high accuracy mobs (it gives an added accuracy down effect for 1 minute every 100TP). Those are the four I have had experience with though, would be a good idea to get some other people to give their two cents on the other WS's.

[Susurrus]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

I love Death Blossom for my RDM. It is nice, especially when you're not subjobing something that gives you vorpal blade.

[Kuro]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

The main thing you must consider... is how cool they look, people will use them for that reason alone lol.

We humans and our love for shiny things, tut tut tut, se know just where to get us.

[Malacite]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

The whole point of Rana is the skillchain attributes. Besides Rana > Gekko it also makes stronger Meikyo Shisui chains by allowing for more Level 2 skillchains before the final Level 3.

Eh mind explaining that one? I didn't think you even could chain multiple level 2's together (what's the order?)

[Armando]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

How little people exploit the power of consecutive skillchains!

Obscure Renkei Chart

Old as sin but I've yet to find a renkei chart better than this one when it comes to showing how stuff chains. Aden's always bothered the fuck out of me - it's just too big and the elements are all over the place.

Gravitation > Fragmentation > Distortion > Fusion > Gravitation

Without Rana, SAM only has Distortion and Fusion, only being able to make Gravitation or Fragmentation out of Level 1's, which rules them out for chaining into them from a different Level 2 attribute. So the best Meikyo Shisui chain a SAM can do without Rana is always (Arbitrary # of Lv.1's) > Frag OR Grav > Light OR Dark. The point being that you can only squeeze one Level 2 Skillchain before capping off with the Level 3.

With Rana, you can do (Arbitrary # of Lv.1's) > Transfixion-to-Scission Distortion > Fusion (Kasha) > Gravitation (Rana) > Gekko (Dark). Basically three Lv.2 skillchaisn before the Lv.3.

For a comparison, let's say you have 6 WS at your disposal (200 TP built up before hand w/ Sekanoki, that's 2; Meikyo Shisui + Meditate make up the other 4).

Without Rana:
Lv.1 (50%) > Lv.1 (60%) > Lv.1 (70%) > Lv.2 (125%) > Lv.3 (225%) = 530%
With Rana:
Lv.1 (50%) > Lv.2 (75%) > Lv.2 (100%) > Lv.2 (125%) > Lv.3 (225%) = 575%

But if you have someone to fill in for your lack of Fragmentation (say, with Spinning Slash), then you can really get sadistic:
Yukikaze > Gekko (Frag) > Gekko (Distortion) > Kasha (Fusion) > Rana (Gravitation) > Spinning Slash (Fragmentation) > Kasha (Light)
Which is:
60% + 75% + 100% + 125% + 150% + 250% = 760%

But most SAMs (well, most people in general) can't be bothered to do a bit of homework and are perfectly content to do silly things with their Meikyo Shisui like Frag > Light || Frag even for pre-planned fights. Either way, even if you set aside all of that, more Skillchain opportunities (even if they are unplanned) is always good. Using Rana and closing or opening Dark is much more damage than a Gekko that didn't chain. The same could be said of just about any Mythic WS. That's part of what makes Atonement so grand - not only can it do up to 720 damage with 100 TP, if you're opportunist and watchful enough you could close Light with it and have twice as much damage to your name to really piss off the mob.

[Ketaru]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

I think some Nyzul WSs are more situational and not necessarily replacements for the old ones yeah. Obviously, some jobs like DRG with Drakesbane or PUP with Stringing Pummel will get more mileage out of theirs than NINs with Blade: Kamu.

From a purely PvP point of view, it turns out that Ascetic's Fury is better than Asuran Fist for some races that are not as strong, like Tarutaru. It's also often used for people with Phalanx because -damage on every single hit on Asuran Fist adds up. It's theoretically useful, but outside of Ballista, you'd probably have a job to Dispel Phalanx. Same with Mandalic Stab over Evisceration or Dancing Edge.

Speaking from the point of view of RDM and BST, Death Blossom is nice because it is among the only ways to land Magic Evasion Down in the game (I'm fairly certain the only other way is to have a DNC). It also skillchains quite nicely, able to open both Light and Darkness. Maybe I'm gearing myself improperly, but I also feel like it is often more consistent than Vorpal Blade. Purely for damage, I think Evisceration is still better if you have Blau Dolch. But it does completely and utterly replace Savage Blade. The only purpose for Savage Blade now is to do skillchains to get Death Blossom really.

Primal Rend is much more consistent than Rampage and plays off one BST's higher stats. It doesn't completely replace Rampage though because of the mobs in the game that are resistant to magic. It is nice, however along with Leaden Salute and Trueflight, if you are up against something that is resistant to physical but not to magic, or takes increased damage to magic (think Flan or Slimes). I did a little over 1300 damage to a Flan in Nyzul before. That made me feel awesome. The ways to increase its damage are pretty clearcut too: More CHR and more Magic Attack Bonus from /RDM, Moldavite Earring, Uggalepih Pendant (though I've heard some testimony that this does not affect WSs), Korin Obi for light weather/Lightsday.

Can't speak for Omniscience for SCH since I don't have it since I don't have staff skilled up since skilling up staff blows chunks.

[Malacite]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Hey, I've always been a proponent of long skill chains, I just don't have Rana yet (I've had my windslicer for a while now and am spamming the hell out of white gate for my last 15 floors of nyzul) and wanted to know. I've also never been aware you could chain multiple level 2's (As you pointed out Aden's chart, while nice, is a bit too flashy) and I'm curious about 1 thing now;

What would deal more damage over all? Chaining multiple WS by yourself (the 6 WS set up as you pointed out) or just doing 3 consecutive darkness chains of Rana > Gekko?

EDIT: Wow that's balls, the only GKT WS that has Fragmentation property is Kaiten >-< (well, guess that just makes Amano all the more valuable but damn it! I'd still rather have Koga if I ever went for either)

[Armando]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Definitely one constant chain. For every new skillchain, a WS is "wasted" because the opener WS obviously doesn't create a skillchain. When making consecutive skillchains, only 1 WS doesn't make a Skillchain, and each consecutive Skillchain does more damage than the last.

Three Darkness Skillchains is basically 100% WS damage x3 for a total of 300%. The Rana-less Skillchain I laid out added up to 530%, greatly exceeding the damage.

Even just chaining those 6 WS into 5 Level 1 Skillchains (which is silly, since you might as well move on up to Level 2 and 3 for the last two) will exceed 3 separate Lv.3's: 50% + 60% + 70% + 80% + 90% = 350%.

Meikyo Shisui is unique as a two-hour in that it gets stronger the more people you have willing to Skillchain with you, but I never see it exploited to its fullest, not even by SAMs. Imagine what would happen if, instead of using those 6 WS on a Skillchain ending in Lv.3, you deliberately ended it in Level 2 and had a WAR close with a Mighty Striked Warrior's Charge WS for the Level 3. A WS like that could easily exceed 1.5k WS damage, and the Lv.3 Skillchain alone would easily break 4k damage. That sort of firepower could be exploited to slay Nyzul HNMs that aren't magic resistant (or the higher floor mini-HNMs like Roc which cause major slowdown when going for floor clearance) or zerg down Tenzen, or low man Charybdis or Kreutzet, etc. And that's just with one SAM. The potential with 2 SAMs is just disgusting, even more so if you throw some Icarus Wings into the mix.

If a SAM had Amanomurakumo as well as Tachi: Rana he could loop between the Level 2 Skillchains freely before capping off with back-to-back Lights.

If SAM gear weren't so expensive (I'm lookin' at you, Hagun,) if SAM weren't such a bandwagon job and if I weren't getting Etherial Earring soon (which means super epic DRG soloing power) I probably would've levelled SAM to 75.

[Ziero]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

If you can get a good group of friends together once a week, the Hagun ENM isn't all that hard. It also drops Foragers and some other decent selling craft mats, so there's plenty of reason to go. Just make sure it's people you can trust, and make the rule that those who plan to keep the item get first dibs before those who will sell it.

Also, what would be a good way to try that super sam Sam SC to War finisher trick? I do Nyzul with a Sam and I can easily convince em to try somethin new (hell we took a pup on our last run). But not having sam past 37, I don't know much about their WS.

[Armando]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

If you can get a good group of friends together once a week, the Hagun ENM isn't all that hard. It also drops Foragers and some other decent selling craft mats, so there's plenty of reason to go. Just make sure it's people you can trust, and make the rule that those who plan to keep the item get first dibs before those who will sell it.

Well, it's certainly obtainable but that doesn't change the fact that it's 2.5 mill I can't use for other things, and that I'd also be indebted to the ENM group until everyone's received an equivalent amount of gil from dropped Haguns. Maybe I could spam the ENM while taking DRG to 75 or something. But for the time being, it's not on my to-do list. I'd also want a Soboro.

Also, what would be a good way to try that super sam Sam SC to War finisher trick? I do Nyzul with a Sam and I can easily convince em to try somethin new (hell we took a pup on our last run). But not having sam past 37, I don't know much about their WS.

Well, the skillchain the SAM will do depends on what WS the other DD will close (e.g. if the WAR's closing with Steel Cyclone, which is Distortion, the the SAM's Skillchain must end in Gravitation so the WAR can close Dark), whether or not the SAM has Rana, and how many WS the SAM wants to do (longer Skillchains presuppose that the SAM built up TP beforehand and/or has Sekkanoki up and/or has a Daedalus/Icarus Wing.)

Fortunately if you take a look at the SC chart I posted, you'll notice that SAM's "big three" WS have very flexible Skillchain attributes - they can make Gravitation or Fragmentation out of their Level 1 attributes, so that Gekko or Kasha my close Dark or Light. They can also do an indefinite Compression -> Transfixion -> Reverberation -> Induration -> Compression loop with some help from Tachi: Enpi, which allows you to accomodate any number of "filler" WS before the final Lv.2 and Lv.3 Skillchains simply by adjusting the starting WS.

For example, if the SAM has 5 WS at his disposal (no Rana) then he can do
Enpi > Gekko (Reverb) > Yukikaze (Induration) > Gekko (Fragmentation) > Kasha (Light).
But if he had 6 WS, you could simply add a Kasha at the beginning of the chain, since it has a secondary attribute of Compression and will chain into Enpi's Transfixion. And if he had 7 WS at his disposal (e.g. with an I. Wing) then you could simply insert another Yukikaze before Kasha. The pattern eventually loops, which allows for 2 or more SAMs to easily combine their Meikyo Shisuis.

An example of a chain ending in Steel Cyclone assuming no Wing, no Rana, but 200 TP built up before hand, Sekkanoki up and Meditate up (6 WS) would be:
Enpi > Gekko (Reverb) > Yukikaze (Induration) > Kasha (Compression) > Yukikaze (Detonation) > Kasha (Gravitation) > Steel Cyclone (Dark).

Bear in mind that the 3 ToAU HNMs are pretty magic resistant last time I checked though. At the very least 1 of them is, I can't remember if they were all such bitches about taking magic damage.

[Malacite]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Hagun is 3 mil on Seraph . _ .

I'm still kicking myself for ever selling the 1 I had gotten for 900k way back (it was nearly all my gil and I needed gil for BRD... should have just fucking farmed)

Hagun is very good, but not good enough to warrant the price it sells for. It's obscene, and the only reason it (and blau dolch for that matter) is so damned high is because it drops from only 1 ENM, and arguably the most annoying 1 to get to.

Here's a hint SE; Add some of these weapons to more events for the love of Christ.

[Armando]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Hagun is 3 mil on Seraph . _ .

I'm still kicking myself for ever selling the 1 I had gotten for 900k way back (it was nearly all my gil and I needed gil for BRD... should have just fucking farmed)

Hagun is very good, but not good enough to warrant the price it sells for. It's obscene, and the only reason it (and blau dolch for that matter) is so damned high is because it drops from only 1 ENM, and arguably the most annoying 1 to get to.

Here's a hint SE; Add some of these weapons to more events for the love of Christ.

Blame the players. A lot of items are overpriced simply because of player obsession with being the best and a general lack of understanding of much of an improvement the item actually is. Amemet Mantle +1's price is awful considering the minimal improvement in performance it gives over the NQ. Leaping Boots have also been a laughable increase in performance - practically a placebo - for any job that isn't THF, since the game started. Organics' value relative to Company Sword is also highly questionable yet it'll sell for 1 mill easily. Gluttony Sword has always been rubbish but because of our lack of understanding about stats, +7 VIT seemed like some sort of epic boost to survivability. It still is rubbish, yet it's as expensive as Tct. Mag. Espadon +2, which is arguably the strongest 1-handed weapon in all of the level 52-60 range.

I'd say half the players in this game don't have a good enough grasp of game mechanics to actually understand why X piece is the best they can get or how much of an improvement it is over Y and just mimic what the uber players wear. Most of the other half do understand but can pay the price anyways.

At least Joyeuse and Sirocco Kukri are Rare/Ex. I shudder to think of the competition for Charybdis and the ridiculous price tag on them if they weren't. Also, a SAM can get by on Soboro as long as he's not needed on /THF, and that weapon's technically worth diddly squat (just some patience) anyways.

[Malacite]

Re: Nyzul WS's better than old ones?

Yeah I carry Onimaru and Soboro personally (Onimaru is IMO the best GKT for using Rana anyway, not counting Amano/Koga/Futsuno) but I would love to get a Hagun again.

I have a few friends who want to do the ENM, but they're never on regularly or at a good time for it so I'm more or less screwed, and I refuse to buy 1 for more than 1 mil. It's not even going to enhance your performance that much over Onimaru unless you have assloads of STR to take advantage of it.