Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Rodin]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I'm starting to get really tired of people bitching whenever an HNM is finally defeated. Ok, it was killed...instead of whining about people logging out during astral flow (Which to me, seems like a smart fucking idea), maybe you guys could take a hint and start killing it yourselves. If you think about it, Kite Party + killing Kirin Summons with outside alliance = Exploit. Kraken DRK = Exploit. NOBODY complained when people would log out to reset hate on CoP Wyrms so they wouldn't flail. I want to know how SE expects us to survive things like Comet/Meteor from AV, and Astral Flow from PW? You still get one-shotted while you have fully merited Shellra V on. Astral Flow is a random avatar, so you can't reliably use a certain bar-spell. You can't stun the avatar either....Also, Astral Flow is instant......what's it called when you have an instant use move that wipes an entire alliance? Oh yeah, it's called an iWin button. This LS found out how to survive AF, kudos to them for thinking outside the box. In my opinion, exploiting the game only includes using bots/hacks to kill NMs. Think about it this way. If so many people hadn't bitched about how Apathy killed AV, how many of you would have a Ninurta's Sash right now? How many would have a Futsuno Mitama? (Yes, I'm aware that when AV was first killed, they didn't get any drops, but it wasn't confirmed why there were no drops, it was only a rumor that the GMs interviened.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Kraken DRK = Exploit.

Actually, this reminded me: this situation with Pandemonium Warden is exactly like the Kraken DRK versus AV thing: you had the people who knew it as such, and you had the people who tried to justify it as a "legitimate strategy," no matter how wrong they were, until the bitter end (AV's Souleater resistance patch).

To me, this is the same story: history merely repeating itself. Of course, some of the people in attempt to justify the log out to avoid AF scheme will predictably come up and say "no, you're wrong, this is different!", but I have the sense to know otherwise.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

But the glaring point that you are forgetting is SE was on top of the drk/kraken tactic right away because they felt it was wrong. People have been logging out at NM's for YEARS now and SE hasn't implemented anything to stop it.

[Mog]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

But the glaring point that you are forgetting is SE was on top of the drk/kraken tactic right away because they felt it was wrong. People have been logging out at NM's for YEARS now and SE hasn't implemented anything to stop it.

From what I can see, the people that are complaining the most are the ones who haven't really fought HNM's before, or don't fight them anymore from dislike of tactics and other things. I can tell you that once a certain person joins an HNMls and starts fighting timmy, he'll either tell his linkshell to stop logging hate because it's "cheating" or do what he's told to and log hate.

[Malacite]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

1. BRD/NIN is (obviously) only used by a Puller Bard never by a Stationary Bard.

I never refuted this, I explicitly stated it was a meripo niche. It's also handy sometimes when soloing or for other little events but generally yes /WHM or /SCH is better (I like /SCH because I can Regen II people and never run out of MP thanks to sublimation but again it's situational since I lose erase and blink/SS)

I'd also like to mention (we're getting way off topic now XD) that I rather successfully did BRD/DNC last night. Using Squid Sushi +1 and my joyeuse (we had a WHM healer rather than RDM so I felt obligated to ease his job) I was actually hitting the birds for as much as 70 dmg per normal swing and kept my TP up enough to spam Curing Waltz II and Drain Samba II.

I would have rather just kept up Drain Samba II and used Mordant Rime for damage but I don't have that WS. My point is BRD/DNC works surprisingly well in a 2-BRD party.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

But the glaring point that you are forgetting is SE was on top of the drk/kraken tactic right away because they felt it was wrong. People have been logging out at NM's for YEARS now and SE hasn't implemented anything to stop it.

And the glaring point that you are forgetting is that people have been Kraken DRK zerging for YEARS now, and S-E still fixed it (for AV, at least).

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

No SE didn't fix kraken drks because if they did they would have taken drks ability to equip it away. (Or nerfed the club but that would release a shitstorm of epic proportions from the community.) They fixed AV's resistance so in a way thats like they are saying "kraken drks are fine on anything but one of our uber mobs. We like to dangle that shit in front of your nose and laugh" It's just not a good example to use. If they adjust the issue across the board, then they consider it an exploit. The kc/drk strategy is still an acceptable strategy for several mobs and used liberally on them, the same as logging hate is. I just don't understand how people can blame players for discovering something that actually works and is within the game rules and then using it.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

And the glaring point that you are forgetting is that people have been Kraken DRK zerging for YEARS now, and S-E still fixed it (for AV, at least).

And that's where the whole argument falls apart. SE only "fixed" Kraken Souleater zerging on AV after they were forced to completely change AV/PW's stats and impose strict time limits on the fights due to all the bad press they were getting.

Kraken zerging wasn't a viable strategy for killing AV in its original/intended state. It was never intended to be the method for killing AV, just another way of doing large amounts of damage that could be used in conjunction with whatever secret knowledge we're supposed to put into practice to kill it. After SE was forced to drop AV's HP to an amount that could be depleted in 1-2 hours, it became susceptible to kraken zerging (which, again, was never intended to be a method for killing AV in the first place) and SE failed to realize this. When they did, they patched it. Not because it's not a legit strategy, but because there is one way to kill AV and Kraken Zerging isn't it.

[Caspian]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but how is the Wall of Justice even close to the same thing as logging out to kill hate? One is a game glitch, the other is a mechanic. Its pretty damn obvious which is which. From what I remember, AV was never killed without the use of one glitch or another. Either the wall of justice, the goblin footprint or something else to prevent his insta-casts or regen or whatever else wasn't getting stopped with whichever random way they decided you should be able to stop his abilities for that particular week.
And its not like PW will never be killed any differently than he is now. As was said about Kirin: ls's used to take hours to kill. Kiting him around until he ran out of mp before they actually started fighting him. Why would you not expect guilds to progress in their understanding and eventually kill him much more efficiently?
Finally, why the hell does everyone seem to be so up in arms about it? In what way, shape, or form does this actually affect you? Were you just a few lucky breaks on PW from being the first to kill him? Someone will beat him before too long in a way that you might just deem fit. Maybe then everyone will be satisfied, but I doubt it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

All you guys did was take my disclaimer and blow it up to exaggerated proportions. Yes, I'm well aware that Kraken DRKs work on just about everything else (knowing so is why I put it there). However, the point is, S-E didn't go ahead and say, "Oh, AV is like Kirin, so we'll just let them KClub away," they said, "Hey, wait a minute, that's not how we killed AV!" Basically, it's like you said Armando, they were forced to change it after the HP reduction.

However! Pandemonium Warden is very much like AV (both of them were adjusted to the two-hour limit), and again, we are faced with a method of victory that looks shady at best. All you people going "It's not an exploit," or, "Even if it is an exploit, they beat him, so it counts!", these are all the exact same effing arguments I saw concerning Kraken-burning AV, rehashed, and personally, I'm tired of it. We all know that S-E is going to do something about this (again), it's a matter of time to see whether they wipe hate-logging across the board, or do like they did with AV and give PW some exclusive gimmick.

[Raydeus]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

This is madness!

[Mog]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

This is madness!

Don't make me break out the quote.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

but how is the Wall of Justice even close to the same thing as logging out to kill hate? One is a game glitch, the other is a mechanic. Its pretty damn obvious which is which.

You're out of your mind.

The Wall of Justice was a method that prevented AV from fighting back. It may have been a rougher method of doing things, but it worked. In the same vein, logging hate is a method that prevents PW from fighting back.

[Vyuru]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Ok, it was killed...instead of whining about people logging out during astral flow (Which to me, seems like a smart fucking idea), maybe you guys could take a hint and start killing it yourselves.

And yet why do you feel you need my approval? Why can't you simply say, "Well, you think that hate logging, which was the essential keystone to the strategy to defeat PW, was an exploit, that's fine. We don't think that however and will continue to do so" Why do I have to conform to YOUR beliefs? I'm not asking you to conform to mine, I am however letting you know why I consider this an exploit and why I'm not ok with the way they killed this mob. Used here or there, I'm more or less ok with it, I may not be happy, but I'm not going to raise a fuss. But when it's used as the cornerstone to take down some hard mob? Yeah, I'm not going to be so quiet.

I can respect TGM because she's stated her position and is quite happy with her stance. I can respect Sabaron for presenting a very good argument for why he thinks that this is fine. I can respect those rather logically presented viewpoints and be happy to disagree with them simply because I think otherwise. Doesn't mean I think any less of them either.

I cannot however respect anyone who not only disagrees with me but expects me to applaud the way they kill a HNM like you do Rodin, that ain't right.

And in the end, our disagreements do come down to what each of us views as an exploit, and I'm willing to guess that we consider the definition of an exploit to be such commonsense that we are surprised sometimes when someone offers a different opinion.

But, back to the subject at hand:

If the LS had used the hate logging as an aid to the fight, I might be ok with it. Similar to how I might have been ok with the wall of justice thing if the LS had used that as a recovery area, or something else to aid the fight but not as the key to winning it. However the entire plan for PW hinged on logging out before Astral Flow, having a select few members take the brunt, and then log back in.

Frankly, and this is kind of a what if because I don't know how far the zone line is or the details. If your LS where to zone out and then zone back in after Astral Flow went off, then I'd be sitting here saying nice kill, because that, in my eyes, is different than hate logging.

Now sure, PW is a very hard fight as I understand it even with the hate logging, and it's kinda nice that they beat it. However, this LS is also expecting the fame that goes with being the first to beat PW, and will be expecting everyone to sing hosannas in their names. No, ain't gonna happen from me at anyrate. You use what I consider an exploit to win a fight, and while I may be impressed that you beat a hard fight regardless, your "first to beat NM X" just gets a "meh" in my book because you used an exploit, again, much like the first AV kill.

If you want people to be impressed by your kill, and to use your kill for bragging rights however, then yes, kill it legitimately, otherwise don't be surprised when a bunch of people say "yeah so?"

Frankly, what I find really amusing is that I can say I dislike burn parties for instance because of the exclusion of jobs that you typically find with them, which I have in the past. People will get on and state why they like burn parties, and the best part is we can agree to disagree. The point is, no one will come onto that thread and say why I am expected to like and why I must accept burn parties.

Yet in threads like this one, there'll always be people who come in and either directly on indirectly tell me that I must like and accept the methods used to kill some HNM. And that if I disagree with them then it's because I have no "knowledge of how said HNM works" And that's directed at Rodin, not Mog. Most of this is in fact directed at Rodin.

[Neomage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

It's been a while since I played FFXI, but I think the key difference is this:

With most other NMs like Kirin, you're logging off to reset the hate on your character so the NM won't attack you directly.

With the Warden, you're logging off so the NM physically can't target you with it's (AoE)2-hour, which is supposed to hit everybody.