Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

spamming TP in party chat and a other random things.

You know there's a problem when it is assumed you (along with everybody else) have a third-party program. Personally, I have no idea what everybody's TP is when I'm in a party; would make skillchaining much easier if I had even *that* much of co-ordination.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

You know there's a problem when it is assumed you (along with everybody else) have a third-party program. Personally, I have no idea what everybody's TP is when I'm in a party; would make skillchaining much easier if I had even *that* much of co-ordination.

Lots of people having Windower is a community problem? It's a bit silly that we can't see party members' TP in the first place. What's the point in keeping it hidden? The Skillchain system already fosters teamwork so it's a moot point to say it's to increase communication and teamwork.

I don't fault anyone who doesn't have TParty and I'll gladly print my TP to the chat log to work with them, but there's no denying that it's slower and inferior to being able to read your party members' TP all the time. The easiest way is with macros and we've already discussed how clunky and unresponsive our UI and macro system are. In a rare but worst case scenario it could even distract or delay you enough to prevent you from doing a critical action in time, like Shield Bashing an ability. If your SC partner is already ready then he has to react to your /p message before he can use his WS macro, possibly wasting TP in the process. You also get a much clearer idea of how quickly your SC partner is getting TP and how well your TP rates are synced if you have a live TP report than by seeing their /p messages once every 30-60 secs.

[Caspian]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

You know there's a problem when it is assumed you (along with everybody else) have a third-party program. Personally, I have no idea what everybody's TP is when I'm in a party; would make skillchaining much easier if I had even *that* much of co-ordination.

Wouldn't be a problem. I only ever played with a small number of people and we were all on vent anyway.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Lots of people having Windower is a community problem?

No. It's a problem.

As in, if there's such a large amount of the playerbase using a program that alters the interface, that might be a sign the interface has problems.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

<deleted>

I don't see discussing this with people who rationally think using windower plugins are ok but logging to avoid an attack is cheating.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The rationale for windower from users was "PS2/360 users can browse the internet for information as they play! We have to play in full-screen mode on our PCs. That's not fair!" and so SE set out to make a windower that lets people do just that - browse the internet while they play.

And DON'T even try to tell me the case was otherwise, that was the case exactly.

Then SE's Windower comes about people show their real colors and complain about lack of features like Recast, distance plug-ins and basically anything they use to cheat their way through the game. Windower is now for "tools," "tools" that PS2 and 360 players don't have access to, not just webbrowsing like we claimed and totally not cheating. Tools.

Its not "cheating" when you call plugins "tools" enough. Amazing how much we can tell ourselves a lie enough before it becomes the truth. Maybe some of you should seek political office or careers as lawyers.

Never mind the fact some of these "tools" play host keylogger trojans or that you only asked for the ability to browse the web. Its the tools that make a windower and SE "fails" for not providing windower the way we really wanted to ask for it. We'll use those tools as much as we want then bitch at SE when our accounts get stolen because we don't want to learn.

No one gets the hint that SE disapproves of the unofficial Windower when they break it each update. Nah, SE is totally OK with us using it. They're just thumbing their nose at us, like they did when they made AV and PW.

So, its not a broad leap for them to call logging for hate an intended gameplay function. Not an exploit, a strategy. Strategy, strategy, strategy. Game must be functioning as intended when I logout and it wipes my hate. Totally casual to logout four times while I fight a badass NM. Totally natural. People do that in EXP parties, right? Yeah. Totally strategy, believe it.

[Malacite]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Lots of people having Windower is a community problem? It's a bit silly that we can't see party members' TP in the first place. What's the point in keeping it hidden? The Skillchain system already fosters teamwork so it's a moot point to say it's to increase communication and teamwork.

I've always wondered this myself.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I don't see how its a moot point to say the intent is to foster communication. That's totally the point. I also think its not viewable because it would clutter up the HUD. The plug-in certainly clutters up the HUD.

But really, what's the point of a TP plugin when no one uses skillchains? That's a moot point.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The sky is brown!

And DON'T even try to tell me otherwise!

Ok, BBQ. I won't try to tell you otherwise.

That would be a futile effort.

People who aren't BBQ

BBQ! I see you reading this. Stop it. This is for people who don't know what to make of your comments.

First, people originally used Windower not to 'browse the internet', but to USE THEIR FREAKING COMPUTER. Pretty much every other game released in the past five years didn't require fullscreen mode, and as Archbell's Windower proved, there was NO good technical reason that FFXI required it. Running a program isn't a 'bonus' or a 'feature'; it's how it's supposed to work. For fucks sake, the operating system FFXI was designed for is called "WINDOWS".

Second, last I checked, SE's Windower still has technical problems.

Third, distance plugins make the game LOOK better, but add no advantage to gameplay. They give no advantage. Didn't we dispel that myth years ago?

Fourth, SE made a clock with features SPECIFICALLY TO TRACK RECAST TIMES. They're clearly not too opposed to it. The only area that really gives an advantage is Utsusemi, and even then there are recast timers BUILT INTO THE INTERFACE ALREADY. That SE's interface is inflexible doesn't mean something isn't supposed to be there period (like TParty)

Fifth, yes, SE fails. Not for however they made Windower, but because these features aren't there period. The interface, as a whole, is shit. Plain and simple. Recast timers, showing party TP, minimaps, separate chatwindows, and other interface features could be added with practically zero effort. SE could overhaul the macro system with similar ease. These could of course also be added to console versions.

Sixth, dealing with a crappy interface doesn't mean you've 'learned' anything except how to cope. Whether using these give an advantage could be debated. Whether they're enough to be called cheating we'd never agree on. But the fact is, SE SHOULD NOT FORCE US TO HAVE THESE DEBATES. If they do not want to open up the user interface to outside modification, they should at least provide a powerful default interface. We're reaching the point where FPS are starting to offer customizable HUDs (See: The Conduit). You can pick where you want your 'grenade type selector' to be. That an MMO, which is basically an interface with some 3D models behind it for effect, would have such a piss poor UI is unacceptable.

[ShepardG]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

believe

That shit is the new hotness.
...the italics I mean....

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

First, people originally used Windower not to 'browse the internet', but to USE THEIR FREAKING COMPUTER. Pretty much every other game released in the past five years didn't require fullscreen mode, and as Archbell's Windower proved, there was NO good technical reason that FFXI required it. Running a program isn't a 'bonus' or a 'feature'; it's how it's supposed to work. For fucks sake, the operating system FFXI was designed for is called "WINDOWS".

Feba, no shit, they also wanted it for other PC functions. They also wanted plug-ins to cheat.

But they didn't ask for what they really wanted, did they? Hm, can't imagine why they would do that.

Go on, show me multiple links to comments where people wanted SE's windower to perform anything beyond putting the the game in a windowed mode before SE implemented their windower. I'll wait. Not like you have anything better to do.

Second, last I checked, SE's Windower still has technical problems.

And the unofficial one doesn't. Playing host to third party malware totally isn't a problem.

Third, distance plugins make the game LOOK better, but add no advantage to gameplay. They give no advantage. Didn't we dispel that myth years ago?

You're not thinking of the distance plug-in I'm thinking of. Learn to specify distance from draw distance, mmkay? Draw distance poses no advantage, a distance plug-in, however does.

And before you try to argue - Ranger. Thanks.

Fourth, SE made a clock with features SPECIFICALLY TO TRACK RECAST TIMES. They're clearly not too opposed to it. The only area that really gives an advantage is Utsusemi, and even then there are recast timers BUILT INTO THE INTERFACE ALREADY. That SE's interface is inflexible doesn't mean something isn't supposed to be there period (like TParty)

hi2u /recast
hi2u <tp>

Fifth, yes, SE fails. Not for however they made Windower, but because these features aren't there period. The interface, as a whole, is shit. Plain and simple. Recast timers, showing party TP, minimaps, separate chatwindows, and other interface features could be added with practically zero effort. SE could overhaul the macro system with similar ease. These could of course also be added to console versions.

Again, people wanted a windower so they could browse the web and use the PC. They did not specify these other "features" because, well, maybe you tell me, eh? Why didn't they suggest these other features? Hm?

Sixth, dealing with a crappy interface doesn't mean you've 'learned' anything except how to cope. Whether using these give an advantage could be debated. Whether they're enough to be called cheating we'd never agree on. But the fact is, SE SHOULD NOT FORCE US TO HAVE THESE DEBATES. If they do not want to open up the user interface to outside modification, they should at least provide a powerful default interface. We're reaching the point where FPS are starting to offer customizable HUDs (See: The Conduit). You can pick where you want your 'grenade type selector' to be. That an MMO, which is basically an interface with some 3D models behind it for effect, would have such a piss poor UI is unacceptable.

People on PS2 or 360 complain less about the interface. That's because we know its a multi-platform MMORPG, made to accommodate things like controllers instead of keyboards. I can line up all my macros in the shoulder buttons and access them with ease. What you call "coping" we just call acknowledging this is going to be the way it is.

PC users see FFXI as a PC MMO like any other PC MMO and they want it to function like a PC MMO. That's not easy when you're making a game that's meant to be played on multiple platforms and have all players occupy the same servers. Watch this happen all over again with DCU Online at some degree. Its made for PS3 and PC, people will share the same gamespace.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

BBQ, like I said, trying to educate you is a futile effort. That's why I left multiple instructions for you not to read my comments.


Then again, I suppose trying to educate you on how trying to educate you is a futile effort is a futile effort.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I don't see how its a moot point to say the intent is to foster communication. That's totally the point. I also think its not viewable because it would clutter up the HUD. The plug-in certainly clutters up the HUD.

But really, what's the point of a TP plugin when no one uses skillchains? That's a moot point.

It only "clutters" (I disagree, but let's go with that) the HUD because SE didn't leave any room for TP on the HUD. That much should be obvious. They could've designed the HUD to leave some room for a TP number somewhere but they didn't. And the TP plugin lets me attempt to skillchain with people that can't be bothered to try =P If I know their TP at all times and know their TP usage habits I can predict when they're going to WS and choose a WS of my own accordingly to make SCs.

There's already communication involved when you talk with your SC partners and agree on a skillchain and magic bursts to use, and make judgement calls during fights and say "save it for the next one." Forcing players to use /p <tp> just makes the skillchain process unecessarily tedious and clunky when going over 100 TP is the main reason we don't skillchain in the first place.

Then SE's Windower comes about people show their real colors and complain about lack of features like Recast, distance plug-ins and basically anything they use to cheat their way through the game. Windower is now for "tools," "tools" that PS2 and 360 players don't have access to, not just webbrowsing like we claimed and totally not cheating. Tools.

How is recast a cheat? It's like saying "Now, you can't put an egg timer on your desk and use it to keep track of your Provoke recast, that's cheating." Introducing artificial difficulty by making it hard for the player to obtain information is not good game design, and being able to cope with that is not player skill. Recast does the same thing the HUD will do - tell you the time left for your abilties. The difference is, the HUD is the equivalent of SE saying "OK dude, I'm giving you these clocks that'll keep track of your recast timers but you can't look at them all the time. You have to open a menu (which prevents your use of macros by the ways), find the individual spell or JA, check it, and close the menu; or use /recast to print it on the chat log where it can zoom by quickly." /recast won't let you know when the ability is ready, either. It'll let you know it's going to be ready, or that it was ready a while ago.

If we're allowed to know recast times then why can't we know them at all times? Is being able to keep track of timers in your head "player skill"? I couldn't care less if the NIN in my party can keep track of both Utsusemi timers in his head down to the very last second - that doesn't make him a good NIN and how he achieves the task of using Utsusemi when it's available is totally irrelevant as long as he doesn't have a plug-in casting Utsusemi for him. And the NIN that knows how to tank suddenly doesn't become a bad tank because he uses Recast to keep track of Utsusemi. Knowing how to tank well, a DD knowing hate management, clearing Nyzul Isle or Einherjar or Assault - that's player skill.

I could make an argument that it's bullshit and artificial difficulty to not give players a proper way to measure distance after you hit a job with a nerf bat so hard that it needs to stand a specific distance from the mob to be effective. If you really wanted to, make it a RNG-only trait if you think being able to know for sure that you're outside of a mob's aggro range is overpowered or something. Let the players know the info - the skill should be in putting it to good use, not in finding out what it is in the first place. It's the same thing SE does with AV and PW. "Lol we're not telling you how to kill them." The achievement and skill should be executing the plan, not finding out what the secret plan is. AV and PW should be challenges EVEN IF YOU KNOW THE PLAN. Just like Ultima and Omega Weapons in CoP from what I've heard.

Windower allows for plenty of cheating, that's true, but I strongly disagree that UI mods such as Recast and TParty constitute cheating, and I'd make an argument that Distance isn't either. Using the wireframe mode to see through walls in NyzulIsle, that's cheating.

[Karinya]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I don't think there's any argument that logging off is not cheating in the sense that windower is - windower is a third party hack explicitly banned by the ToS.

Whatever else you can say about intentionally logging off during a fight, it is not banned by the ToS.

But clearly, there's a substantial number of people who think it's a lame way to fight, and not what the devs had in mind; and figuring out the intended mechanics behind a new fight is part of the fun of the game for some people, which is taken away by exploiting wall of justice or logout.

We'll know SE's view on this if they put in an emergency maintenance that makes anyone who logs out in PW's area log back in outside it and unable to reenter while he is alive, or track the damage each player did to a NM and instantly heal it if that player logs out before the NM dies, or something like that.

Such measures would be somewhat annoying to people who disconnect during affected fights, but then, fishing fatigue and GBH's are annoying to legitimate fishers, too; if the abuse is bad enough in SE's opinion, they clearly don't mind a solution that has minor spillover onto legitimate players. It's impossible to perfectly distinguish intentional logouts from d/c's anyway, because you can intentionally d/c by unplugging your router etc.
______________________________
What's the difference between the "info" on exact distances or party member TP and the "info" on where the lamps/mobs are in Nyzul? In both cases there are relatively slow, inefficient ways of finding the info available to anyone, or faster, more efficient ways of finding the info available to people who use 3rd party hacks banned by the ToS.

Yet you claim some are cheating and some aren't. This seems kind of arbitrary. Estimating distance and using timers in your head aren't part of player skill? Figuring out strategies to tough fights isn't part of player skill? (I agree that the fights should be challenging even with a good strategy. I also expect that they will be. Kirin is arguably something of a pushover with several years of merits and gear that didn't exist when he was designed, but Dynamis Lord, Bahamut, Limbus bosses and many others remain challenging even with good strategies.) But walking to a doorway, *that's* skill?


Needing a specific distance to be maximally effective isn't the same as needing a specific distance to be effective, either. Distance would have a much bigger impact on things like standing just outside dreamflower range than on ranger, where close to the right distance is still close enough to pull hate off a lousy NIN and force you to line up all over again.

I don't complain about this because positioning is clearly just as much of a skill for ranged attack jobs as it is for thf, brd or cor. Positioning for those jobs takes skill, and if you don't like it, there are other jobs. Learn to play the job or get thee to a moogle and change to something more suited to your abilities.

[Rodin]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

How is recast a cheat?

Because, CLEARLY having a macro that you have to hit every time you want to see your recast, as compared to having it displayed for you on-screen, breaks the game. It lets botters bot, and hackers hack. Hell, it even defeated PW and AV. Seeing how much longer we have left to wait for a spell is evil, and something the community needs to take care of ASAP. Also, Yarnball? OMG, who seriously wants to know how much longer is left on the duration of a buff? Um, I think it's only every RDM in existence?

A lot of these are things SE SHOULD put in the game (As long as it's not a shitty version compared to what's already available via windower.)

Also, windower macros...do they break the game? No, all they do is save time and space. They don't let me claim a monster faster. All they do is let me swap out my entire charm and melee set for BST. () Of course, I COULD hit 3 macros, but why when I can make it in one macro? This is another thing that SE should take care of, but can't due to "PS2 Limitations".

Also...windower lets me use IME. Oooh, I can speak in Japanese...that REALLY breaks this game. That I can communicate in another language that I'm taking the time out to learn....SCARY THINGS!!!!