Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

How is working within the game, maximizing and super buffing a single character to brunt the full force of an attack in any way, shape or form an "exploit"?

I'm not saying it's an exploit but you're obviously missing the fact that most Supertank strategies involve not getting on any of the mob's hate lists, which allows for infinite healing without having to manage hate at all. Tank does nothing, healer can heal forever without getting attacked.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

But supertanking can never beat the mob, just hold it off until you're ready to fight it. It's a temporary measure that's still done within the gameworld itself and still comes with a very real set of risks.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

While they didn't want us zerging Kirin, they could easily fix it. Instead they just added mobs like Kirin only stronger, and un-zergable. And with the Blm DM thing...well they did nerf that. It still works, just not as well. But this "log out to avoid massive attacks" bit does leave a bad taste in many people's mouths, and rightfully so. It is a win and yes they deserve it and I won't ever suggest taking people's items or titles away. But it would be nice if people could find the real trick to beating him.

Yes, they could fix it so you couldn't zerg Kirin but they don't. Why? Because they realize that the population is going to find tricks to do things that they had not thought of. They weigh the pros and cons of these tricks and if they feel they are within the realm of reason, then they let them be. If they feel that its too much of an advantage, then they tweak the game......or how what some people call it they "nerf" it. Until they "nerf" logging out, they are basically saying its an acceptable tactic. Would it be nice to figure out SE's trick to beating the mob? Of course! But since they are being a bunch of asshats and basically going "Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah", I'm glad someone tea bagged them and won the damn fight.

And the blm/DM nerf.......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya.....no. Still done, still works. Been there, done that.

FYI, speeding in any form is breaking the law....like breaking a rule. We all think that 5 over the limit is ok, until that one cop pulls us over and gives us a ticket. Anyone that uses the UNofficial windower is breaking rules......especially people using add on programs to enhance their gameplay. Yet, no one makes a sound about people who use windower anymore and using programs for distance, curing, recast timers, targeting, etc are all acceptable to some. Some of the same people that think logging hate is cheating. Ironic isn't it?

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Ironic isn't it?

not really. Hypocritical, maybe. But lines on what is an exploit and what is a gameplay mechanic are arbitrary.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Yes, they could fix it so you couldn't zerg Kirin but they don't. Why? Because they realize that the population is going to find tricks to do things that they had not thought of. They weigh the pros and cons of these tricks and if they feel they are within the realm of reason, then they let them be. If they feel that its too much of an advantage, then they tweak the game......or how what some people call it they "nerf" it. Until they "nerf" logging out, they are basically saying its an acceptable tactic. Would it be nice to figure out SE's trick to beating the mob? Of course! But since they are being a bunch of asshats and basically going "Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah", I'm glad someone tea bagged them and won the damn fight.

You're right, they could fix the log-out bit, but at this point in time they haven't had a chance to yet. But if it is done, and it is "fixed" wouldn't that mean it was never really "acceptable" in the first place? The BWzerg of AV was something the playerbase hailed as a great accomplishment, using an "acceptable tactic"...until SE nerfed it because they didn't want AV dying like that. Chances are, the same thing will happen to PW in time.

....and what's with this "in your face SE!" attitude? If you're really so insistant on "tea-bagging" SE, then just stop paying for their game. Beating a monster they want you to beat isn't showing them "who's boss", even if you do win in an unconventional fashion, it's just paying them to play their game.

And the blm/DM nerf.......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya.....no. Still done, still works. Been there, done that.

Yes, I know this. I even said it.

FYI, speeding in any form is breaking the law....like breaking a rule. We all think that 5 over the limit is ok, until that one cop pulls us over and gives us a ticket. Anyone that uses the UNofficial windower is breaking rules......especially people using add on programs to enhance their gameplay. Yet, no one makes a sound about people who use windower anymore and using programs for distance, curing, recast timers, targeting, etc are all acceptable to some. Some of the same people that think logging hate is cheating. Ironic isn't it?

To be fair, even when I did use the unofficial windower...before the official one came out...I still didn't use any add-ons. Infact whenever I had to re-install the Windower, I made a point of uninstalling TPparty which comes pre-loaded on the basic version. And while I won't use these plug-ins myself, I also won't damn those who do. Much like I would rather find the real method of killing PW, I won't damn those who use the log-out trick either. However, being able to do things like read ally MP/TP, judge distances, enhance macros and other such stuff like that provides far less of an advantage then logging out to completely avoid a timed and expected attack. Which is where the difference lies. One makes working within the game slightly easier via increased UI efficiency while the other completely circumnavigates an in-game attack using a system feature.

[Rodin]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

One thing I don't like about this thread is that people are making it sound like you need the unofficial windower to be able to tell when 75%, 50%, and 25% are. That's when he USES Astral Flow. You're going to have to log out before that, and to be honest, I don't need the windower to have a good estimate of what 78-76% HP is.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

You're right, they could fix the log-out bit, but at this point in time they haven't had a chance to yet. But if it is done, and it is "fixed" wouldn't that mean it was never really "acceptable" in the first place? The BWzerg of AV was something the playerbase hailed as a great accomplishment, using an "acceptable tactic"...until SE nerfed it because they didn't want AV dying like that. Chances are, the same thing will happen to PW in time.

If they nerf logging hate on ALL mobs and not just this one, then yes I would say that it wasn't acceptable. But suddenly making it so you can't log out on just one mob? No, thats just a petulant child going "Nah nah gotcha!"

....and what's with this "in your face SE!" attitude? If you're really so insistant on "tea-bagging" SE, then just stop paying for their game. Beating a monster they want you to beat isn't showing them "who's boss", even if you do win in an unconventional fashion, it's just paying them to play their game.

Oh please. I rarely say anything negative about SE or how they do things with the game. Don't act like I'm Mal and start treating me like an idiot. SE has been thumbing their nose at us over PW since they put it in. They made AV super hard, wouldn't give any hints to help with the fight for a long time (and then when they did it was shit), and when someone found a way to beat it that they hadn't expected, they took that away. I'm glad someone beat PW and laughed in SE's face.

How would you like it if they made a mob in an offline game that was like AV or PW? I could see the reviews now about how the end boss is broken, the game is glitched, blah blah blah. People would be pissed and rightfully so. Then someone somewhere finds a way to beat it that wasn't the intended way and the next time you log on to play there's a patch you have to d/l for the game which takes it away. Do you think people would be singing SE's praises then?

To be fair, even when I did use the unofficial windower...before the official one came out...I still didn't use any add-ons. Infact whenever I had to re-install the Windower, I made a point of uninstalling TPparty which comes pre-loaded on the basic version. And while I won't use these plug-ins myself, I also won't damn those who do. Much like I would rather find the real method of killing PW, I won't damn those who use the log-out trick either. However, being able to do things like read ally MP/TP, judge distances, enhance macros and other such stuff like that provides far less of an advantage then logging out to completely avoid a timed and expected attack. Which is where the difference lies. One makes working within the game slightly easier via increased UI efficiency while the other completely circumnavigates an in-game attack using a system feature.

So its totally fair to be able to type out //cure 5 theg and cure myself (which is 100% NOT the way they intended it to be) but its not ok to spend 30 seconds resting and then logging out and coming back in a minute or two. Riiiiiiiight.

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

If they nerf logging hate on ALL mobs and not just this one, then yes I would say that it wasn't acceptable. But suddenly making it so you can't log out on just one mob? No, thats just a petulant child going "Nah nah gotcha!"

But this issue isn't about logging hate, it's about avoiding the attack. IIRC it was tested that zoning/logging doesn't erase all hate, but rather it just removes you from the hate list. So it's still has memory of the hate, just that you're not listed as a target anymore.

Oh please. I rarely say anything negative about SE or how they do things with the game. Don't act like I'm Mal and start treating me like an idiot. SE has been thumbing their nose at us over PW since they put it in. They made AV super hard, wouldn't give any hints to help with the fight for a long time (and then when they did it was shit), and when someone found a way to beat it that they hadn't expected, they took that away. I'm glad someone beat PW and laughed in SE's face.

And what if they "fix" this trick for PW? Would we still be laughing? Yes they're being douches about telling us to the tricks to win, but actually bragging derivatively we could beat their mob, and using a round-about way to do it? I mean, seriously?

So its totally fair to be able to type out //cure 5 theg and cure myself (which is 100% NOT the way they intended it to be) but its not ok to spend 30 seconds resting and then logging out and coming back in a minute or two. Riiiiiiiight.

Seeing as it would take roughly the same amount of time to use a macro or one of the new targeting types, it's really not that much of an advantage imo. It's not like it makes the spell cast any faster or anything, it just helps with targeting, especially in crowded areas or with blinking people. But SE added that new system to help fix those issues too so really, it's not that much better.

Also, what if you have two people with similar names?

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

So its totally fair to be able to type out //cure 5 theg and cure myself (which is 100% NOT the way they intended it to be) but its not ok to spend 30 seconds resting and then logging out and coming back in a minute or two. Riiiiiiiight.

In the case of //cure5 theg it's totally irrelevant whether it's what the devs "intended" or not. It's totally harmless.

Imagine a fighting game that didn't have a Button Configuration option. Why should the player have to conform to the default button mapping? It's completely inconsequential to the game - what matters are the player's inputs, not how he's going to input them (as long as the player still has to do the inputs himself.) If someone wins a Street Fighter III tournament, he's the rightful winner regardless of whether he's using a PS2 controller, a 3rd party PS2 controller, an arcade stick, and/or a user-defined button mapping.

Likewise, what relevance does the player being able to type //cure5 theg to achieve the same thing as /ma "Cure V" Thegrandmom have, even if he's using 3rd party tools to achieve that?

To top it all off it's not like our UI is all nice and responsive. We're stuck with a slow and sometimes stupid UI. Hitting consecutive macros takes far longer than it should - especially if you're experiencing graphical lag. You can't use macros AT ALL (or change equipments - why?) when inside combat menus. It takes a whole second just to see your macro palette when holding Alt/Ctrl. Typing /ma "Cure V" Harleydragonldy is a hell of a lot more tedious than //cure5 Harley. It's hard to fault players for seeking more convenient ways to input commands.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a case for or against the logging out thing. It just seemed like an unrelated/unfair comparison. It would be different if you were making a case out of something like the fact that SpellCast can automate a lot of things, like automatically changing your equipment when you engage or /heal, when a certain weather or day is present in the area, Windower scripting loops, or seeing through walls in Nyzul Isle. Those are things that just can't be done without 3rd party aid, period.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Basically what Armando said. I get such horrible lag that using spellcast is far superior. Macros take FOREVER to fire in Dynamis, now typing //cure5 whoever actually saves my party members, instead of going off just a second too late because of shitty lag. I've always felt that it was stupid that I had to type /ma "Cure V" Stupidlylongnamethathasninehundredletters, now I have a way to get around that. I mean come on, I type quickly but hitting SHIFT to get that C or < > shit is a huge time waster for me.

The UI, as a whole, is pretty clunky. It would be great if macros responded faster, or were more intuitive. They're not. Spellcast has really been a way for me to cure people faster, without dealing with lag that ends up killing my party members (and ultimately getting me yelled at, to boot).

Would I stop using spellcast if SE made it easier to cast spells on people (using the typed method, of course) by removing the case-sensitivity, and the quotation marks? Possibly. I suppose it highly depends how good it actually was, or if it would turn out to be a failure the same as their official windower.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

The UI, as a whole, is pretty clunky. It would be great if macros responded faster, or were more intuitive. They're not. Spellcast has really been a way for me to cure people faster, without dealing with lag that ends up killing my party members (and ultimately getting me yelled at, to boot).

This whole thing makes me think of something: suppose Aikar never made his Windower thing.

How the crap could all you people with your stupid, incessant complaining about all these stupid, little things even function in this game? If it bothers you that much, just use that official comment/suggestion form thing . . .

Honestly, some people really need to get over themselves . . .

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

They don't listen. I have sent them comments. Dynamis in ten minutes or I'd find/post the thing.

[Feba]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

If it bothers you that much, just use that official comment/suggestion form thing . . .

Square Enix: They care about the playerbase.

[Armando]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

This whole thing makes me think of something: suppose Aikar never made his Windower thing.

How the crap could all you people with your stupid, incessant complaining about all these stupid, little things even function in this game? If it bothers you that much, just use that official comment/suggestion form thing . . .

Honestly, some people really need to get over themselves . . .

The same way we coped before Level Sync, before Nomad Moogles in Selbina, before Outpost Warps, before the EP/DC EXP change. Or storage NPCs. Or Ninjtutsu bags. Or the latest Gobbiebags. Or Mog Lockers. Or Beastmen's Seals holder NPCs. Or anything that's convenient in the game right now. What are you implying, though, that we should just suck it up with the console users?

It took them so long to come up with a Windower of their own and it's not even that good. What makes you think they'd give us anything even remotely close to the functionality of Windower's plug-ins? They probably don't have the resources to work on that while still making actual game content either. I say let the Windower team do their thing and let SE keep doing what they've been doing.

[Caspian]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

This whole thing makes me think of something: suppose Aikar never made his Windower thing.

How the crap could all you people with your stupid, incessant complaining about all these stupid, little things even function in this game? If it bothers you that much, just use that official comment/suggestion form thing . . .

Honestly, some people really need to get over themselves . . .

Probably would result in a couple different things.
A. Some people would have undoubtedly quit. Probably nothing game-breaking. Probably a rather small number that would likely go unnoticed. But there are people who would be so frustrated at not being able to have a windowed game for 4 years that they would have quit long before that. The lag stuff more people would have dealt with, I imagine the spellcast stuff kept a few people around that would have quit otherwise, but I wouldn't think those that would quit over it would number much past the double digits.
B. If people never had it, they wouldn't know it wasn't there. People would just deal with the lag, spamming TP in party chat and a other random things. It would be annoying but noone would really think about the fact that things should be better, so it probably wouldn't be something people would bitch all that much about.

On the topic of the windower, it took four years. FOUR YEARS!!!! For SE to finally window the program. And that was with incessant bitching in comments and suggestions, at fan festivals, in interviews, everywhere. If people complained about lag with macros in dynamis or some of this other crap the way a windower was called for, then MAYBE four years from now they might do something about it.
Even if Aikar never made the windower, I have no doubt someone else would have. Might not have ended up with all the add-ons, but a basic 3rd party windower was almost inevitable.