Pandy Warden Killed last night!

[Szkol]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

FYI, bad analogy. There are rules in the contest that prevent doing things like this in Ironman.

FYI- That's why I said an Iron-man style race- the point it is that it's the type of feat that garner's much respect, and FYI, Ironman specifically has rules in place so things like this don't happen. FFXI is just a game, there's no prize for the winner, which is why SE isn't really obligated to lay down similar rules.

Also, logging hate to avoid getting killed is the same thing as they did at PW yet its used on other mobs but no one complains about them. Why? Why is this suddenly an issue now after years of people using this tactic? Doesn't using this tactic for years make it a part of the game by default?

All the people crying need to remember that there are multiple things we've done over the years to kill mobs that WERE NOT THE WAY THE FIGHT WAS MEANT TO BE WON. But now they are an acceptable means of getting the job done and no one complains. Why just this mob? It's foolish and its petty and people need to get over themselves.

I would consider logging to win any sort of fight pretty cheap. And the reason this is getting so much attention now is because it's such a pretty high-profile victory over a high-profile NM.

I'll say again: I'm all for thinking outside the box to get a win- I'm sure SE envisioned lots of things very differently during the dev process, but folks do it differently and its fine. There's no exploits or cheating here, so in SE's eyes its also fine.

The other problem with this in the eyes of the players is that logoff is NOT a game mechanic. Sure you CAN do it, but just because you CAN doesn't mean it's a cheap shot.

Here's another example since my last one wasn't perfect enough: imagine an NBA game back in like 1990 when Michael Jordan pretty much carried the Bulls. The opposing team's center ignores the toss-up and instead runs up and kick Jordan straight in the nuts. Jordan's no longer an issue, and the player gets a technical foul, and maybe even gets ejected from the game. That doesn't matter, because with Jordan out of the way, the opposing team can easily win the game.

Jordan = Pandy Warden
Kick in the nuts = Avoiding Astral Flow
The ejected player = Tainted win- the fans don't really respect what has been done to achieve the victory


All the rules were followed- but it's a cheap shot. That's the issue.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I think you're totally missing the point. Fighting a mob is not logging out of the game to avoid getting hit by him. Imagine if your Paladins did that on Khimmy.

/confused

Sorry totally do not understand what you are trying to say here. And why would the plds want to log hate on Khimmy since its so insanely easy??

I'm not saying I've never logged hate before, usually I've done it on BLM when I accidentally linked the gob. Otherwise I would have died, or I would have needed to pray my warp went off in time. Nothing wrong with that. When I came back though, I didn't expect the gob to be there waiting for me so I could continue the fight.

Sorry but this doesn't compare because you are soloing. You don't solo PW.

We don't have people log hate at Tiamat, or at JoL. I can honestly say that if you are, you're doing it wrong. Some linkshells find that to be an acceptable method, but mine and several others surely don't.

See, thats the type of bullshit I'm talking about. Why do you feel the need to impose your stratagies on other people? Why can't someone be different than you and it be ok? You are basically saying "I'm better than you because I it this way because you are doing it wrong." Again, just more elitest bs.

It's just an unfair means to get past this mob, when surely the devs had something else in mind.

And if they did, they'll fix it but until then its an acceptable way of killing the mob. I think they have the deciding vote. Just like people who killed AV with the wall, there will always be an * noting that this is the way they did it and that that has since been fixed.

Logging hate for a few seconds to clear it - while I think it's dumb - is still somewhat acceptable, but logging for several minutes while a mob does a powerful AoE just doesn't feel right.

Thats like saying "speeding only 5 miles an hour over the limit is ok but 15 over the limit is not". Wrong, if one is unacceptable then so is the other. People log for hate, people log to reset when someone calls for help on accident, or when asshats call for help on purpose, etc and its done quite a bit but just now people are crying foul.

FYI- That's why I said an Iron-man style race- the point it is that it's the type of feat that garner's much respect, and FYI, Ironman specifically has rules in place so things like this don't happen. FFXI is just a game, there's no prize for the winner, which is why SE isn't really obligated to lay down similar rules.

And I'm sure that any race similar to Ironman would have the same rule in place to prevent that type of thing from happening. Again, not a good example to use.

There are prizes for the winners, its the drops from the mob. And they do put those type of rules in place or we would be using bots and other things to obtain our prizes.

Here's another example since my last one wasn't perfect enough: imagine an NBA game back in like 1990 when Michael Jordan pretty much carried the Bulls. The opposing team's center ignores the toss-up and instead runs up and kick Jordan straight in the nuts. Jordan's no longer an issue, and the player gets a technical foul, and maybe even gets ejected from the game. That doesn't matter, because with Jordan out of the way, the opposing team can easily win the game.

Jordan = Pandy Warden
Kick in the nuts = Avoiding Astral Flow
The ejected player = Tainted win- the fans don't really respect what has been done to achieve the victory


All the rules were followed- but it's a cheap shot. That's the issue.

Again, a very flawed example. You say it yourself......."rules". Logging out to shed hate and avoid getting killed is not against the rules. You are comparing something that is against the rules to something that is not.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Oh and PS can we have the auto-resize for huge images back? I hate scrolling to read posts.

The logging at Khim thing was an entirely ridiculous example, to prove a point. Logging is ridiculous. You shouldn't be able to "log off and hide" to avoid an attack.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Oh and PS can we have the auto-resize for huge images back? I hate scrolling to read posts.

My best suggestion for you is to PM an admin about it. Mods have little to do with it and admins are rarely around so we don't really have it much different than the rest of you. lol We have to PM them also.

PING: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pri...p?do=newpm&u=1

AKosygin: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pri...=newpm&u=71639

TaskMage: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pri...=newpm&u=93745

I always try to keep my pictures around the 500 pixel range but I know not everyone does.

EDIT: Fyi, I resized the picture I think you are talking about.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

I also don't care if I'm called elitist. I know where I stand. If you are a BLM and you need to log hate because your PLD can't keep it, your PLD sucks. Not saying the BLMS are entirely innocent, because they should know their limits, but yes, it's pretty lame IMO if you need to log hate.

CFH ... well, you've got me there. Shouldn't even be ABLE to CFH big NMs. Game flaw, but what can you do?

Still, logging this fight is a lot different than logging a JoL or Tiamat because you're on BLM and you overnuked. We're talking about entire alliances logging out. Not just one or two people. And people who log hate on JoL aren't trying to avoid Primal Drill. They're just getting their name off the hate list so they can come right back in and nuke the shit out of the gd thing. Not the same strategy here.

EDIT: Much appreciated TGM.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

In the pursuit of justice, this thread is now about whether you'd logout if Pandy Warden morphed into an ugly chick before you hit Beer 4.

THREAD GOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Szkol]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

/confused

And they do put those type of rules in place or we would be using bots and other things to obtain our prizes.



Again, a very flawed example. You say it yourself......."rules". Logging out to shed hate and avoid getting killed is not against the rules. You are comparing something that is against something that is not.

You must be confused- I don't really know how to say it any clearer, and sorry, but there's not an example identical to this one.


Bots is CHEATING- it's a hack, use of 3rd party software , explicity against the ToS. Not the same thing at all, since I continue to say (ineffectually it seems) that this is not about violating the ToS.


As for the RULES- I think I've made it very clear that noone really believe this is a ToS violation. That's not what this is about. This is about respect. And I'm not comparing something that is against the rules to something that is not- you brought up bots, you brought up cheating. I thought I was making myself clear that this wasn't about the rules when I said "While I understand this does not violate the ToS..." at the beginning of every sentence.

In 2000 Bush lost the popular election and became president anyways. LOADS of people thought it was bullshit. That was not about a rules violation, just like this is not about a rules violation. It was about being a cheap shot, like this is about being a cheap shot.


You keep asking WHY OH WHY DOES EVERYONE UPSET NOW??? I gave you an answer, and thought I explained it very clearly, several times. You don't have to like the answer for it to be the right answer. For you, logging to beat a fight is an acceptable tactic. For myself, this is not an acceptable tactic. We hold ourselves to different standards, that's all.

For the sake of due diligence I'll give it one last shot, though I don't think it will do any good:

I do solemnly swear that the victory of Apathy over Pandemonium Warden was in no way in violation of the Terms of Service or any otherwise specified rules. However, it is my my feeling and opinion that this is a victory in name only, as the means by which this victory was obtained is not in keeping with the spirit of the objective at hand.


To anyone responsible for the defeat of PW: grats- you made it further than anyone else has, whether I agree with your tactics or not.
______________________________

In the pursuit of justice, this thread is now about whether you'd logout if Pandy Warden morphed into an ugly chick before you hit Beer 4.

THREAD GOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Yes-

Unlike FFXI, ugly chicks are definitely NOT a game- This has now turned into a battle between your carnal needs and your self-respect.

[Mog]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

If you are a BLM and you need to log hate because your PLD can't keep it, your PLD sucks.

That's not always true. A PLD can be capped on hate and still lose it if a BLM develops enough hate and dmg w/o hate logging. If your BLM's nuke at a slow pace, then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but I still see logging hate as being a more efficient way to get rid of a decent amount of hate and start nuking again in a short period of time.

P.S. This whole thread sucks.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

You must be confused- I don't really know how to say it any clearer, and sorry, but there's not an example identical to this one.


Bots is CHEATING- it's a hack, use of 3rd party software , explicity against the ToS. Not the same thing at all, since I continue to say (ineffectually it seems) that this is not about violating the ToS.

Umm....why are you taking my post and quoting me out of context? I'm not confused about the rules, I know exactly what they are and logging hate is not against the rules. It's only against the "rules" of a bunch of people that think they know better.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

TGM, you didn't answer my pressing question. YES OR NO TO UGLY CHICK BEFORE BEER 4. Being that you are of the female persuasion I will grant you the courtesy of after Beer 10.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

ROFL! Ugly chick/guy before beer 4.......absolutely not....

UNLESS its near closing time and you've recently just got off work and only had time to slam 4, then anything goes!

Now beer 10, ya I'd do an ugly guy after beer 10 cause I'd be bombed out of my mind......near comatose I believe!


Ok...I'm outta here! LOL I need to go downtown and buy some wong tong slabs for my mooncakes!

/em zips off into obscurity!

[Ziero]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

It's not just logging for a few seconds to clear hate. It's logging off nearly a minute, maybe several, to be sure that the astral flow hits only a few people. How can you say that's a fair fight? That's like hiding.

As a career Thf, I must ask: What's wrong with hiding? :p

/See, thats the type of bullshit I'm talking about. Why do you feel the need to impose your stratagies on other people? Why can't someone be different than you and it be ok? You are basically saying "I'm better than you because I it this way because you are doing it wrong." Again, just more elitest bs.

It's not really "imposing", but more like many people feel it's a hollow victory. Sort of like how people used to beat some CoP Missions (i.e. Mammets...and apparently Diabolos) by using the CS trick. It was still a victory, and they still got the reward...but you used abnormal game mechanics to do so. As someone who has never used that trick, but has won (both fights) repeatedly, I can't help but sit and think "well that ain't right". And apparently SE felt the same way as they nerfed those tricks. It's not people saying "that's the wrong way to do it, you shouldn't do that evar!" it's more along the lines of people saying "that can't be the right way to win because that's kind of cheating". Which no matter how you try and spin it, removing yourself from the gameworld to avoid an in-game attack is in effect cheating the system.

But no matter what any of us ever say, it'll ultimately be SE's call on whether it will be allowed or not.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Well put, Ziero. I agree.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

In the pursuit of justice, this thread is now about whether you'd logout if Pandy Warden morphed into an ugly chick before you hit Beer 4.

Aks, you skipped this. I KNOW you read it. Come on now. TGM played along.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Pandy Warden Killed last night!

Takes me at least a six pack before I'm looking at chicks, probably 12 before I'm into ugly chicks. Figure out for yourself what that means.