Why does everything have to be /NIN?

[Boldfinger]

...

[Firewind]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

To be honest I'm just sick of seeing /NIN everywhere and being screamed at to sub NIN if I even think about touching any sort of DD job which is completely pointless since /NIN does nothing but gimp the vast majority of DD jobs. Honestly what use do you get out of /NIN in exp parties? The only use I see is in these two situations:

1) AoE spamming exp mobs. Well i can't count any that parties usually exp off but I'll get back to you there

2) Burn parties. But you're usually doomed to fail if you try to fight something that the party can't burn.

/NIN is useful for soloing and tanks that lack sufficient damage mitigation though /BLU is just as effective and is probably more MP effective since Stoneskin and Cocoon can't be dispelled quickly and stay up for much longer than the average utsusemi spell. Then there is /DNC which makes just about any class quite self sufficient.

Why people would sub /NIN before lv50 when they aren't tanking is just purely illogical. Every time I see a DD or Support class needlessly subbing NIN I die a little inside. Who benefits from it? BLM pre-50 due to the elemental wheel then RNG and COR so stack daggers with nice stat boosts and that's about it. Dual Wield 1 offers no TP boost at all and nine times out of ten if you are going for a TP build you will want to sub DRG for Jumps and use a 2 handed weapon where possible.

Once you hit 50 and get Dual Wield 2 I will concede more use to using 2 weapons especially if you can stack stat bonuses on them but a 2 handed weapon is still going to give you more TP in the long run. Even then there are lots of other classes that have more utility. WAR, THF, DNC and even DRG all have the potential for good subjobs. THF is especially vital for Melee DDs if you are using a blink tank. Why anyone would be stupid enough to give up the spike damage from SA and the ability to dump excess hate on the tank is completely incomprehensible. If you obsess over TP then sub DRG for Jumps. You don't get a Wyvern but who cares when your TP skyrockets? If you want to be more self sufficient and offer various buff, enfeebles and drains to the party then sub DNC, probably one of the best classes for a melee to sub IMO.

DDs your party relies on you to bash/slice/stab/nuke/shoot the mobs quickly and efficiently. It's especially annoying considering I'm a career WHM. If the DDs are gimped then I will run out of MP before the mob dies or worse the mob hits so hard and/or fast the tank and healer can't keep up. If I run out of MP the tank will die. If the tank dies I can't cure you because there is nobody to hold hate in one place. If I die the party has to pray that one of the support jobs is subbing WHM so I don't RR as the party wipes. Everyone has to rely on each other and if there is one weak link in the party you will bring it down.

[Armando]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

WAR and BLU can sub /NIN pre-50 and make good use of it - all they have to do is pull hate. 6 shadows used = 6 hits the tank didn't take = less MP to use on a PLD or 0:00 recasts on a NIN tank. RNG uses it for the same reason, aside from the Acc boost it lets them go all out and not become an MP sponge.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Why people would sub /NIN before lv50 when they aren't tanking is just purely illogical.

To set up SATA?

To make it easier to avoid taking damage while pulling? And please don't say, "If you need shadows to pull, you fail." Yeah, you can get away without having any shadows while pulling if you use your ranged attack from exactly the right distance and start running at exactly the right time. But what about when the mob moves during your ranged attack delay? Or lag hits you so you can't time your jog away from the mob at exactly the right time?

[Armando]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

I don't mean to be an ass but I'm pretty sure you can consistently pull a mob with a ranged attack without letting it ever get near you. The only time this isn't possible is when the mob has enhanced movement speed (Manticores, Wyverns, Raptors, Tigers.) Most mobs have the same movement speed as us so as long as you didn't pull real close and you don't take any unnecessary curves, the distance between you and it shouldn't decrease significantly unless you're literally pulling it halfway across a zone.

If you do have to pull something fast then it's a perfectly legitimate sub choice, although naturally it's better if the puller is a job that actually benefits from /NIN in the first place (WAR, THF, etc.)

[Vyuru]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Benefits of /Nin:

Extra offhand hit on all WS for all one handed weapons
Shadows
Dual wielding 2x +stat weapons
2x Merc. Knives or 2x Windurstian Knives in the 20s is pretty good

For Thf in particular, it's handy because you can use a sword, particularly a stat boosting one, in your off hand. While it doesn't happen exactly often, your daggers can and will occasionally hit for 0 damage against mobs with higher defense, namely beetles, crabs, anticans. This'll be largely in the lower levels, I don't think I saw it happen after our static got to Garliage. Still though, the Thf in my static liked to offhand a sword because it probably wouldn't hit for 0, and a number of the swords that he used had nice +stats on them, Mithran Scimitar for instance.

War, Blu, and Dnc get nice perks from them as well.

In a TP burn situation, one thing that /Nin does have over /Sam for two handers is the ability to blink away magical attacks, I'm looking at you Firespit >.< Utsusemi is also better at handling AoEs, something that Seigan+TE can't do.

I won't say that /Nin is the end all sub, but it has it's uses pre lvl 50, and after.

[Armando]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

For Thf in particular, it's handy because you can use a sword, particularly a stat boosting one, in your off hand. While it doesn't happen exactly often, your daggers can and will occasionally hit for 0 damage against mobs with higher defense, namely beetles, crabs, anticans. This'll be largely in the lower levels, I don't think I saw it happen after our static got to Garliage. Still though, the Thf in my static liked to offhand a sword because it probably wouldn't hit for 0, and a number of the swords that he used had nice +stats on them, Mithran Scimitar for instance.

Actually, hitting for 0 is primarily tied to your Attack and the mob's Defense, DMG has very little to do with it. If his dagger was hitting for 0, then his sword was too. Actually, just the fact that he was hitting for 0 in the first place is troublesome and a clear indication of overhunting. Although, I won't deny that a Centurion's Sword in the offhand at Lv.30 isn't a bad idea.

[Confetti]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

I personally don't like NIN, so I try to dodge classes that make really good use out of them. :p but dual wielding + their evasion = amazing. /DNC is becoming a very big viable sub for a lot of classes now too, though. So /NIN might just be a trend for a little while.

[Armando]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

I personally don't like NIN, so I try to dodge classes that make really good use out of them. :p but dual wielding + their evasion = amazing. /DNC is becoming a very big viable sub for a lot of classes now too, though. So /NIN might just be a trend for a little while.

/DNC is a great sub for soloing or just fighting against things that don't hit very hard in general, but there's no way it can compete against Utsusemi against anything that hits hard enough that MP would actually be a concern. Even if you can still cure all the damage with waltzes, you'll have 0 TP and won't be able to WS. Utsusemi can stop spells (including things like Ancient Magic which can one-shot players, or powerful enfeebles,) prevent added effects by preventing hits from landing, and basically bypass insane amounts of damage.

As long as Utsusemi can do all that it can currently do, the odds of it being replaced by another sub are practically 0.

[Vyuru]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Actually, hitting for 0 is primarily tied to your Attack and the mob's Defense, DMG has very little to do with it.

Hmm, I knew that it is tied to attack and the mob's defense, but I always thought the weapon's damage rating had something to do with it. And yeah, the sword would hit for 0 every now and then but it seemed like it was the dagger most of the time if one of them was going to hit for 0. Now that you say that I wish I'd have known that then, 'cause then I could have asked him to go with 2x daggers just to see if it would have been the same as dagger/sword.

And yeah, we most likely were overhunting a bit at the time. The only mobs that ever gave him trouble with the beetles on the first floor of Garliage and the crabs in Kuftal Tunnel, I think we were a bit low for when we first started to exp on them.

And I think that /Dnc might be viable for some jobs, but I suspect that it's going to be kind of like melee Rdm, where it is highly job/party/location dependent.

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

If you are going to level a job, you need to be versatile, don't narrow yourself to one subjob. If you want to be a well-rounded THF, then /nin is going to be one of the options anyway.

[Chubsmgee]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Oy I just hate the fact " omg THF omg THF sub NIN PAM SPAM SPAM!!! BLAGARAFARAAFAGAGA" Its just so effing annoying I love THF/DNC. Plus I'd rather have a challenge rather than oops he hit me haha KAZAAAR I INVINCIBLE!!!! just annoying

[Aksannyi]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

You might like that challenge but your mages may not be quite so appreciative. I'm not a melee (well I am sometimes, but hardly ever) so I really do kind of like when I don't have to spam cures on people without shadows. If you understand hate and you don't get hit, sub whatever you please. Pullers, yes, I prefer you /NIN. I can toss a Regen III on you when you get back to camp if you do actually get hit, and then I can continue to concentrate on the tank.

Dual wielding is fun, anyway. With double attack procs on WAR I enjoy hitting 4 times instead of two.

Shit is situational, but /NIN isn't all horrible, which is why people like it so much. Two handers shouldn't use NIN sub, but I like one handers to come with two weapons.

[Armando]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Hmm, I knew that it is tied to attack and the mob's defense, but I always thought the weapon's damage rating had something to do with it. And yeah, the sword would hit for 0 every now and then but it seemed like it was the dagger most of the time if one of them was going to hit for 0. Now that you say that I wish I'd have known that then, 'cause then I could have asked him to go with 2x daggers just to see if it would have been the same as dagger/sword.

Yeah. A higher DMG weapon does have a small advantage since as far as anyone knows the game doesn't round, but it's completely insignificant. What I mean is, certain low PDIFs could cause the product of your DMG * PDIF to be 0.xx, which would get rounded down to 0. For example, a 13 DMG weapon would get rounded down to 0 for PDIFs of 0.001 to 0.076 while a 23 DMG weapon would get rounded down to 0 for PDIFs 0.001-0.043. The cut-off point is slightly lower for the 23 DMG weapon, but if you're hitting for 0's then 99% of the time your PDIF rolls will be either negative (which makes your damage 0 automatically) or a value much higher than either of those ranges. The probabilities of a PDIF roll falling precisely in the gap where the lower DMG weapon would do 0.xx but the higher DMG weapon would do 1.xx damage (in this case, 0.044 to 0.76) are waaaaay too low and you would never notice the difference. Hope that made some sense.

Oy I just hate the fact " omg THF omg THF sub NIN PAM SPAM SPAM!!! BLAGARAFARAAFAGAGA" Its just so effing annoying I love THF/DNC. Plus I'd rather have a challenge rather than oops he hit me haha KAZAAAR I INVINCIBLE!!!! just annoying

There's nothing challenging about using the wrong sub at the wrong time. /NIN does not make you God, a VT-IT mob and many NMs can still rip into you. If you want a challenge try duo tanking Charybdis, see how easy it is to keep up shadows against a mob that hits up to 8 times in a single attack round. Or hey, try soloing Kreutzet; never heard of any THF pulling that off, with or without /NIN.

It's all fun and games until they wipe your shadows.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Why does everything have to be /NIN?

Oy I just hate the fact " omg THF omg THF sub NIN PAM SPAM SPAM!!! BLAGARAFARAAFAGAGA" Its just so effing annoying I love THF/DNC. Plus I'd rather have a challenge rather than oops he hit me haha KAZAAAR I INVINCIBLE!!!! just annoying

Stick with the "I don't sub NIN because I'm cheap" argument. When you do the whole "I choose my sub because it's more challenging" thing, you're just trying to make yourself look superior at the expense of others. And that's just not a very endearing trait.