Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

[Malacite]

http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity+table

So I was looking at these earlier and found some of it very interesting. In particular, I have found the final definitive proof that WAR sucks for tanking.


WAR NIN PLD



Not a single ability of WAR builds any usable CE. This actually works well in WAR's favor however to co-tank/take the heat off another player for a short while, since a NIN or PLD will be able to build up much more CE.

[Armando]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

So? Most of their hate comes from damage which does build CE. Most PLD tools don't give CE either except Flash and Cures, which don't give that much (and Cures are a very MP-inefficient way of keeping hate.)

The problem with WAR tanking has never been holding hate, it's always been holding hate without being an MP sponge.

[Malacite]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Hmm, finding some neat stuff. VE decays at a rate of 60 E per second, which means by the time Provoke is ready again (1800 VE) it's fully decayed.


The only thing I haven't figured yet is how to read D and C on the enmity tables for stuff like cures and nukes.


EDIT: I'm also curious about enmity gear now... does it boost all forms of enmity, or just one? (VE or CE?)

[Celeal]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Thank you for posting. Very interesting info.

BTW the 1st link does not work, need to include the exclamation mark: http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity+table!

[Malacite]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Also from what I can glean out of this, once you have flash it looks like opening fights with it is a much better idea than provoke since it builds CE (unless you're meriting in which case mob's gonna die in 30 or less anyway)

So provoke is more of a way to yank hate back rather than establish it.


and LOL the entry is dated "July 17, 1986" >.> I think he means 2006?


EDIT: Okay it says it right there in Part IV Enmity Gear and Merits affect CE. This is great for tanks, and really, really bad for everyone else !!! O. O


It boosts VE too, though it doesn't affect the decay rate. Hmm, you need at least +8 enmity though to gain 3 seconds of hate from provoke >_>

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

I have found the final definitive proof that WAR sucks for tanking.

If your definition of tanking is limited to HNM fights that last a really long time, then sure, WAR tanking "sucks" compared to to NINs and PLDs. I don't think anyone needed the enmity tables to be convinced of that. There are, however, other activities in this game where a WAR tank works just fine.

So provoke is more of a way to yank hate back rather than establish it.

I still think using Provoke on a regular basis, rather than reserving it for "yank back" purposes, is a good tanking strategy. If you use Provoke once every 30 seconds, the average VE, and thus average TE, of the tank will be much higher through out the course of a fight, thus allowing all DDs the freedom to deal more damage.

[Celeal]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

The only thing I haven't figured yet is how to read D and C on the enmity tables for stuff like cures and nukes.

-- C -- should refer to Cure~Enmity formula
-- D -- should refer to Damage~Enmity formula

In my opinion, we should look at main-job/subjob to get a better picture for tanking. Just look at WAR, NIN or PLD alone will miss something.

And also, each party member's enmity goes up and down over time during a battle the tank(s) just need *enough* hate to get to the top of the hate-list at the given moment in order to hold hate in that given moment.

For example, given a Tank, DD #1, DD #2, DD #3. If at an instance DD #1 has enmity = 1000, DD #2 has enmity = 1100, DD #3 has enmity = 1200, the tank just need *enough* enmity > 1200 to hold hate at that instance, some value like 1250 ~ 1300 is okay.... value like 3000 ~ 5000 is waste of resource.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity+table


So I was looking at these earlier and found some of it very interesting. In particular, I have found the final definitive proof that WAR sucks for tanking.


WAR NIN PLD



Not a single ability of WAR builds any usable CE. This actually works well in WAR's favor however to co-tank/take the heat off another player for a short while, since a NIN or PLD will be able to build up much more CE.

NIN gains hate with tools and damage
PLD gains hate with Flash, Cures and damage.
WAR tanks by... wait for it... dealing damage.

Shocking, I know.

WAR tanking through damage is the core of any Warrior or Barbarian-type in most MMOs. FFXI WAR's weakness is damage mitigation and that is where they suffer, they have absolutely no problems in gaining hate, in fact, NIN is the one that struggles the most in that regard. If a NIN can't DD for crap, very little else will help them in tanking outside of a THF's assistance.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - tanking is just as much about doing damage as it is about absorbing it. Its why the word "tank" is in there. They make big booms, attract attention and take the heat so the other guys can go in and do thier thing. WAR might be a bit more fragile, but outside of the large scale events, they can hold up pretty decently with the right support. Problem is, most people either don't know how or stubbornly refuse to support a pure blood tank.

Evasion/mitigation by itself is not tanking, only part of it.

also EDIT: The link to the blog doesn't work, I wanted to see about that whole merits and enmity thing was about, its of particular interest to me regarding THF and SCH enmity.

[Armando]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Also from what I can glean out of this, once you have flash it looks like opening fights with it is a much better idea than provoke since it builds CE (unless you're meriting in which case mob's gonna die in 30 or less anyway)

Flash should be used every time it's available unless you have a really compelling reason not to. As for Provoke, it's pretty safe to open with the fight with it, the combined hate of Provoke + Flash is enough to hold hate 'til the next voke. The only time you may want to hold off on Provoke 'til a bit later is if you know the DD is going to WS early on.

EDIT: Okay it says it right there in Part IV Enmity Gear and Merits affect CE. This is great for tanks, and really, really bad for everyone else !!! O. O


It boosts VE too, though it doesn't affect the decay rate. Hmm, you need at least +8 enmity though to gain 3 seconds of hate from provoke >_>

Enmity (stat) isn't as important as you'd think. It definitely counts but being smart about your hate production is far more important, and actually having a good hate production is better than using +Enmity as a band-aid stat. This is of course speaking generally. There ARE situations where loading up on +Enmity is desirable.

I still think using Provoke on a regular basis, rather than reserving it for "yank back" purposes, is a good tanking strategy. If you use Provoke once every 30 seconds, the average VE, and thus average TE, of the tank will be much higher through out the course of a fight, thus allowing all DDs the freedom to deal more damage.

No, that's being inefficient. If you use Provoke when you didn't actually need it, you'll have less than +1800 VE left over. If you wait for the DDs to cross the line you'll have that full +1800 VE.

[Malacite]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

There ARE situations where loading up on +Enmity is desirable.

Like on NIN/DRK.

[Lmnop]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

I think people tend to put a bit too much emphasis on CE since this testing came out. It's so easy to spike VE, and 1 more VE than everyone else gets the mob's attention just as much as 1 CE. Given the choice between 300 CE and 1800 VE, I'll keep skyrocketing the VE. Afterall, tanks have done a decent enough job of keeping their total enmity above everyone else for the last 5 years. I don't see why knowing a move provides never-lasting hate is a problem now.

Also, about Provoke. Maybe I'm missing something but here's how I see it: All my damage, all my abilities. They're all generating VE. VE decays at 60/second. That's universal. That's not 60 VE/second for every source that generated it. Through some twist of logic that I haven't bothered to mathize yet, seems like that makes voke every 30 better. Oh, and start tossing on enmity gear, and the every 30 seconds certainly gets you somewhere. I don't think +enmity stat is very helpful full time. But the bigger the spike, the more you get out of it. So Provoke with 15 enmity (Full WAR AF) is 2070 VE. Hey, it's something.
______________________________
Let's say I make 9000 VE from other sources -- non-Provoke (that's roughly 2000 damage and some extra for things I haven't thought about).

So on the save-voking method with a 60 second theoretical fight...

9000 VE
-3600
=5400.

Right at the end of the fight, you provoke. Your new total is 7200 VE.

If you voke throughout:

9000
+1800
+1800
-3600
=9000

9000 VE and it's been a minute which means your 3rd voke is 1-3 seconds from use. He's a voke away from 10000.

/shrug. What am I missing? Someone else wanna try to walk us through a more intermittent approach? i.e. Enmity at any given point in the fight?

[Armando]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Yeah, you're right. I'm an idiot. Sorry Lyonheart.

[Malacite]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

What I found most interesting of all is that SAM is the only job (err, other than SCH actually...) that has a JA that generates more than 1 CE (Medidate for some reason generates 320.... wtf?)

[Susurrus]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Here's my question, where do these numbers come from? Is there some hidden value in the game much like party member's TP?

[Armando]

Re: Kanican's Enmity Tables for Jobs

Testing. It all started here. Kanican