So.. Pandemonium Warden

[Luna]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Yeah, lets not stop people from taking great health risks by fighting a boss in a video game for 18 hours.

Because we don't have to do it if we don't want to, you know.


I would actually agree with this logic if there were a sign in front of PW that says "Hey kids, don't fight me unless you have
18+ hours to sit there and not care about your own well being!".

Why should there be a sign? You should be smart enough to look up an NM before you fight it. AND! You dont spend 18 hours fighting it, you can spend 2 hours, and have ppl sub in. It is just something fun to do. AND No one is making you fight him, so why are you complaining?

[Balfree]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Its pointless to drag this on, its like arguing over what the prettiest color is, pink or fuchsia.

Somehow I doubt SE will change things, but if they do, hooray, if they don't, don't be surprised... :p

[Luna]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Its pointless to drag this on, its like arguing over what the prettiest color is, pink or fuchsia.

Somehow I doubt SE will change things, but if they do, hooray, if they don't, don't be surprised... :p

lol true to that, they hardly EVER change Its like trying to change a 50 year old man, just wont happen =]

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Why should there be a sign? You should be smart enough to look up an NM before you fight it.

Imagine for a moment you're actually in a shell that attempts this mob and as it hasn't been beaten just where do you propose these "smart" people are going to look up the info. As difficult a concept as it might be to grasp, those idiot walkthroughs are actually written by people who did go blindly forth and attempt to kill new mobs without knowing what to expect.

Regardless of S-E's disclaimer, they should act responsibly when programming new encounters. There have been numerous reports in recent times of people suffering detrimental effects, ranging from nausea and headaches up to death in extreme cases, due to lengthy exposure to MMOs. They know they're producing an addictive product and yet they constantly disregard established health guidelines while creating new content and leaving it down to the "individual's choice".

I also think they're living in a dreamworld if they ever expect encounters like this to form some wondrous bridge of love and understanding between Japanese and North American players.

[Ziero]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

While I'm a big proponent of not doing things that aren't fun for you, any MMORPG activity that takes more than 2-3 hours at a time should really be outlawed. It's really absurd to put things like "don't let our thrilling experience get in the way of your real life" and then require the equivalent amount of time investiture as a full-time job to do certain activities. That's simply asinine.

Yeah, lets not stop people from taking great health risks by fighting a boss in a video game for 18 hours.

Because we don't have to do it if we don't want to, you know.

I would actually agree with this logic if there were a sign in front of PW that says "Hey kids, don't fight me unless you have
18+ hours to sit there and not care about your own well being!".

What about the fact that people have spent 20+ hours on AV with no adverse side effects? Or the fact that it wasn't the time they spent fighting him that got people "sick" but the roller coaster ride of having a new form pop when you finally think you've won over and over? Or the fact that these people didn't actually switch out like was suggested by SE themselves?

At what point does player responsibility take over exactly?

Why should there be a sign? You should be smart enough to look up an NM before you fight it. AND! You dont spend 18 hours fighting it, you can spend 2 hours, and have ppl sub in. It is just something fun to do. AND No one is making you fight him, so why are you complaining?

There is very little information about this monster because it's been fought very few times. The first attempt at him went for a few hours and players barely made a dent. The second was the one where people found out that PW would start cycling through a half dozen+ forms after every defeat and went on near 20 hours iirc. This attempt was the farthest anyone got on him, and allowed them to discover that he'll start losing HP after a certain amount of repops and will use Astral Flow at a certain HP %. There is no information to look up because people are still learning about him.

Regardless of S-E's disclaimer, they should act responsibly when programming new encounters. There have been numerous reports in recent times of people suffering detrimental effects, ranging from nausea and headaches up to death in extreme cases, due to lengthy exposure to MMOs. They know they're producing an addictive product and yet they constantly disregard established health guidelines while creating new content and leaving it down to the "individual's choice".

If I said it once, I'll say it a thousand times. Everything can be addictive, it's all based on the individual. There are people who will become addicted to one habit or substance, eventually break free of that addiction only to fall into another one. It's why alchoholics and such are given cigarettes in recovery programs to help them focus their addictive traits on something "less" dangerous. Those people suffering long term ill effects, and even death, were addictive people who latched on to whatever caught their interests. Because for every one "addict's" death or for every one "LS who got sick fighting PW" there are hundreds more who haven't become addicted and never became ill.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

If I said it once, I'll say it a thousand times. Everything can be addictive, it's all based on the individual.

While I agree this is true there is also some fundamental level of accountability they need to shoulder. It's like handing a bottle of vodka to an alcoholic, somewhere down the line the person made the choice to drink too much but they're no longer fully capable to resist the temptation. You make 18+ hour encounters in a game where there are droves of addicts of varying levels you know they won't be able to resist.

[Lunaryn]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

I do think SE sees that disclaimer more or less as a transferring of responsibility for time and wellbeing onto the player. They're basically saying "We're going to make content that's going to try to keep you in-game and involved as long as possible, and it's totally up to you to know when to resist it and give up."

Which is the kind of thing people sue tobacco companies over, for reference.

You can argue whether there are people who can 'handle' being given a challenging, intense, 18-hour fight (though really I've seen more of a blanket insistence that there must be people looking for 18-hour fights somewhere than any actual evidence of such a target audience), but I think that there are probably more people who think they can handle such a situation without ill effect than people who actually can.

I think that rather than being in conflict with the disclaimer, the existence of such fights as PW and AV coupled with the disclaimer illustrate the attitude SE has towards their own position and liability toward the well-being of their own customers. However, that's not an attitude that the law has been very sympathetic to, at least in the U.S.

[Ziero]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

While I agree this is true there is also some fundamental level of accountability they need to shoulder. It's like handing a bottle of vodka to an alcoholic, somewhere down the line the person made the choice to drink too much but they're no longer fully capable to resist the temptation. You make 18+ hour encounters in a game where there are droves of addicts of varying levels you know they won't be able to resist.

"droves of addicts"? So the only people who want to fight AV and PW are the ones who have no self control or something? If AV is the vodka, it means that the alcoholic went to the bar to get it himself.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

"droves of addicts"? So the only people who want to fight AV and PW are the ones who have no self control or something? If AV is the vodka, it means that the alcoholic went to the bar to get it himself.

Then the barman should say, "You've had enough for the night!".

As far as I'm concerned the people willing to pump 18+ consecutive hours in to AV and PW do have an issue with self-control. However, that's my personal opinion and not something which I see any debate changing. If people are happy to join in for a part of the fight and contribute then I believe they should at least be given some recognition for their efforts. This may be a one off kill for all the players know, much like the first incarnation of Kerafyrm back in the EQ Velious era. If it is a regular loot-dropping mob though you have to wonder just how often it will be killed once the key players receive the items they need off it. Using time to ensure the toughness of a mob is a very lazy and weak design criteria though, I've already linked an example of a challenging and rewarding encounter earlier in this thread. It's a shame S-E are always 3-4 years behind the rest of the MMO gaming community.

[Cotners]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Pointless discussion is pointless.

[Raydeus]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

AND! You dont spend 18 hours fighting it, you can spend 2 hours, and have ppl sub in. It is just something fun to do. AND No one is making you fight him, so why are you complaining?

I wish there was more people like you on end-game LS around Vana, I would be able to get all the items I wanted while the rest of the people is busy just having fun 2-5 times a week 3-4 hours a day.

[Malacite]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Except that unlike sky (which is basically what the ZNM tiered NM system mirrors) the "final boss" who drops the last items needed in the set is stupidly hard and you might as well not even bother. Where as AV is a random chance encounter this is something you forcefully work for to engage... and then they pull this BS?

Hachiryu isn't even the best Body Armor around. It's damned good, but I can more easily get my hands on a piece of Ares or Usukane.

[Satori]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Does anybody else read this and remember "Snowly" ?

I don't think that the warning we have means much to SE it's only there as a reminder that there is life outside of the internet and we have to use our better judgement to decide what is too for us as individuals.

The thing that bothers me is they fought it for 18 hours straight and then gave up which meant that potentially we still don't know how long the fight will take.
18 hours is way too much though I've worked a few shifts that have been that long even more due to staff shortages at the hospital which due to government guidelines is illegal.

I think PW needs more research though there may be things we still are unaware of.

Are we meant to be able to kill it yet?

As for the sickness as a nurse myself Tiredness doesn't actually induce vomiting as was said if that was the case you'd have major afk-aga. Allthough the feeling of sickness would come from staring at a screen for that long. I'd be more concerned with pressure sores and seizures. Remember the warnings in manuals to take a break roughly every hour?

I take my hat off to the Ls though for the determination to fight that long even if it wasn't very wise.
I'd be very interested to know how many pulled sickies for work and the culmulative cost IRL of the fight.

Does SE not realise we got to work to be able to afford their fees?

[Raydeus]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Twenty four-hour fight:

-R/E BC-trigger item difficult to obtain, works like an Hourless Timeglass
-BC based 36 people entry, only 1 Alliance can engage the NM at a time.
-8 forms of the same NM with 3 hours to beat each form.
-After beting each form you'll get out of the BC and would have to wait till after JP midnight to fight the next stage.
-If everyone in the BC dies you'll have 3 mins before getting kicked out of the area.
-Drop pool like Dynamis, possibly some kind of currency and or some kind of Campaign like point system to exchange for regular (yet rare and useful) items.
-If you are defeated in any form you'll have to start from the beginning and require a new trigger item. A 1 week (Earth JP time) wait would be applied from the moment you are defeated.


Uh... and I think that's pretty much all I can think of in these 10 mins I spent thinking about it. So I really doubt SE would be unable to think on something much better than this.

[Gobo]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

So Rukenshin has made 2 posts about the PW fight. Good reads if you have the time. First one just gives a brief overview of everything, why they stuck at it for so long at it ect. The second one is all about the fight itself.

First post:

rukenshin: Pandemonium Warden: The Fight, Strategy, and Experience

Second post:

rukenshin: Pandemonium Warden: Part 2