So.. Pandemonium Warden

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Arguments about the ridiculous time expectations of these fights aside, if S-E expect people to "work" in shifts at downing these endurance mobs they should at least take the effort to create a mechanic that reflects the contributions of all people involved in the fight not just the lucky few who are there for the last 1%.

Make these mobs pop in a sealed zone and everyone present when it is engaged gains a buff which flags them for a title award. Or maybe before the mob is engaged players are able to loot a Key Item crystal from the zone in and when the mob dies they can loot a second crystal from a triggered event which when combined with the first gives them an item which can be traded to an NPC for an award / title.

[Raydeus]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

A campaign-like point system could work, you'd get points for contributing to defeating the NM that you could exchange for items later on.

With the only requisite of your LS actually defeating the NM in order to get the points you earned in the fight and an item like a dynamis hourglass to enter the BC.

[Balfree]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

I don't agree with that system, after all mobs don't drop stuff for all those who fought either, people take turns to get their rewards.

[Raydeus]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

No one said you'd be able to exchange points for the drops, just items, could range from things like Giant drinks to Revitalizers or certain special Ra/Ex grips and stuff like that.

[Callisto]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Pertinent repost from BG from a BTL member regarding the fight:

big post

This reminds me of playing telephone in like kindergarten. <.<



Before the truth gets stretched anymore, and CNN starts publishing articles on BtL's 48 hour-long fight where 15 people died and 11 were in critical condition after attempting to down an NM that took to 5,278 different forms before summoning God himself to fight beside it a split second before death... Here is the straight fact:



The fight did in fact last 18 hours, but people were not sick beforehand. No one mentioned feeling any kind of sickness until after we realized we'd have to give up, although many were reaching breaking points and starting to get exhausted. I think it goes without saying that the adrenaline of getting to the end of the fight was covering up what people's bodies were trying to tell them.



In the final boss fight we find out we in fact were no where near the end of the fight, when we thought we were (this is when PW astrals, wipes everyone, and resummons lamps at 75%). As a result of finding that out, for the first time in the fight the morale starts to fall and our adrenaline/motivation disappears. Suddenly we're hit in the face with a brick, and everyone starts to feel the effects of what the last 18 hours of this fight has done to their mental and physical health. But no one really says anything or gives up, or even recommends it.



People react differently to the disappointment. Some fall asleep/pass-out, some get angry, some get sick, some puke, some express extreme disgust in FF and log shortly after.



A very brief time line would look like this:

- Fight starts.

- ~10 hours in we've killed 16 forms and think that the final form is next, but Hydra pops. Morale sinks, but we push further.

- Morale starts to recover as we succeed, and people get anxious.

- Some people start to get tired/frustrated with the duration of the fight, but nothing major.

- Final form is reached, people are ecstatic and ready to end this BS fight.

- Lamps are killed after about an hour or so, and we start damage on PW.

- People are now getting really tired, but still anxious and excited enough to go further.

- About 30 minutes later, PW is 75%, and wipes everyone + resummons lamps.

- People are speechless, adrenaline wears off, people are hit in the face with a brick, many get sick feelings, morale is rock bottom, but no one expresses wanting to give up yet (although most do).

- Some members later spoke of vomiting shortly after this time.

- We recover over the next 10-15m, try to start over, but only able to kill 1 lamp before PW wipes us all again.

- We all agree it's best to give up, and call it a night.

- Post on BG.

- The huge amounts of physical and mental stress catches up with many members in the minutes/hours that follow, resulting in illness, vomiting, sick, etc.

And while a single fight lasting 18+ hours is definitely excessive since it appears to have been designed like this, really many hardcore players would willingly play for 18+ hours straight, they'd just be doing several different things in that time span instead of one fight. Hell I myself played MGS4 for over 24 straight hours with small breaks and that game has a pause/save function.

The real crime is the fact that after the great big insane 20 hour fight there's a reasonable chance that PW could've dropped something equivalent to D.Feet + Wind Crystal.

[Mhurron]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

I don't agree with that system, after all mobs don't drop stuff for all those who fought either, people take turns to get their rewards.

Yes, but currently the system only allows those who were there at the end to participate in the reward. With mobs that can be handled with 18 or less at one time not everyone gets something, but they all have the opportunity to lot for it, and get the associated title.

If something is designed to be handled by more then an alliance, the game needs to recognize groups larger then an alliance of 18.

[ShepardG]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

How is telling someone you were fighting one mob for 18 hours any different from telling them you've been playing an MMORPG for x amount of time? Either way those who don't play this game will still look at you funny.

Very good point. I have friends who wouldn't touch a MMO but can acept that my hobbie, for what ever it's worth, is playing FFXI. I guess as long as you go with the thought process of "all things in moderation", then most hobbies could be justified up to a certain extent.

My friends can talk to me about scuba diving, or playing the guitar (i actually play the guitar also, but let's say i don't here in a second), or building a Humidor for their cigars and, although i don't like/would consider doing, any of these hobbies, I can still relate in the sense that they had a good time enjoying their hobbies.

Example:

I beat maat as rdm after having failed 6 times, and I was so excited! (I will never claim to be the best RDM, but i will claim to be a red mage to my core.) The next monday at work I proceeded to tell some of my friends about how my fight went, and how much fun I had. They gave me some crap, not alot, but some, however they also agreed that it was pretty awesome. (now i broke it down into lamen's terms, with none of the more subtle things that a true FFXI player would be interested to know)

It was weird because, like when ever my friend talks about scuba diving, I ask questions about how it's done, and how things work, etc. and they are more than willing to inform me. This has also been the case for me talking about FFXI to people who don't play.

IF however i came into work that monday, with bloodshot eyes and a shit eating grin, and proceeded to tell these people about how i had killed the super monster of vana'diel and it only took me and my Link shell 21 hrs, I will have lost some credibilty because at that point, they know i had not kept things in moderation, and that i had taken it to excess.

At that point also, I think alot of other people that have the same hobbie as I do, will have lost some respect for me, because of my lack of self control and use of moderation. If someone said he played guitar until his fingers started bleeding, and he kept playing and came to work and couldn't type, or turn a wrench, how are you supposed to respect his hobbie???

Personally.... 6 hrs. ON A GOOD DAY...any thing longer than that, and the monster can keep their leet gear, and i'll go watch pineapple express @ the movies.

[Malacite]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Am I the only one who's absolutely fucking sick of difficulty being measured in time?

I've tried plenty of absurdly hard boss fights in other RPGs that took maybe 30-60 minutes (sometimes more but very rarely) that trumped this guy (Black Rabbite/Nemesis Weapon anyone?)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Am I the only one who's absolutely fucking sick of difficulty being measured in time?

Of course not, but this is an MMO. Can you honestly tell me that there are short fights that are just as winnable in the same amount of time they are losable?

Really, the whole 18 hours thing is blasphemy to me, but, do you have any bright ideas on how to make a mob difficult yet short without subjecting it to Kirin Syndrome?

[ShepardG]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Really, the whole 18 hours thing is blasphemy to me, but, do you have any bright ideas on how to make a mob difficult yet short without subjecting it to Kirin Syndrome?

I like your thought process on that, yellowmage. I guess they would probably have tried everything, given the fact that they fought his ass for 18+hrs. But something still seems fishy to me... I understand that SE makes their money by the month, and that keeping subsribers occupied is what brings in the $$$'s but... I don't know. I mean, did they try charming the lamps? stealing from the lamps? jug pet dmg?

But your point was a very good one, there has to be some acceptable method of keeping players coming back, offering a reward/ non-absurd fight, along with a justifiable reward and at the same time a challenge.

Maybe Soul trappers weakens it??? i'm sure some people took pics of course...

But I like what SE did with the Zeni NM's which i think fixed the claim's problem, but it's almost like they completely forgot how they got their players to the final MOB and went back to silly ways. I dunno...

Anyone have any thoughts on what YM said? as far as Idea's for NM's?? challenging/rewarding/not ridiculus?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Of course not, but this is an MMO. Can you honestly tell me that there are short fights that are just as winnable in the same amount of time they are losable?

Nowhere near 18 hours but equally as challenging from anything outside of an insane time criteria.

Apologies in advance, it's WoW I know. If it sends you into a foaming rage don't click the link.

Kael'thas Sunstrider (tactics)

[Ziero]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

Arguments about the ridiculous time expectations of these fights aside, if S-E expect people to "work" in shifts at downing these endurance mobs they should at least take the effort to create a mechanic that reflects the contributions of all people involved in the fight not just the lucky few who are there for the last 1%.

Make these mobs pop in a sealed zone and everyone present when it is engaged gains a buff which flags them for a title award. Or maybe before the mob is engaged players are able to loot a Key Item crystal from the zone in and when the mob dies they can loot a second crystal from a triggered event which when combined with the first gives them an item which can be traded to an NPC for an award / title.

They can't make these things pop in a sealed zone, it would defeat the whole purpose of allowing players to come and go on a whim for these fights. Being in a sealed zone would hinder the ability to swap players as then everyone involved would be stuck there the entire time. There's a reason these mobs are fought out in the open, it's so people can leave or arrive whenever they want.

And a point system would be horrible for these monsters. They're not meant to be defeated every day, especially seeing as it takes days just to even get a chance to fight them. If anything SE should add a dispensable item (similar to Ballista Pages or Timeless Hourglass) that would be given out to all those who will be helping, and when the mob dies a ??? would spawn people would trade their item to that ??? to obtain their title/reward (maybe even letting the ??? stay up for 24 hours incase people who helped logged before it was killed). This way, all those who do help will walk away with something to show for it while still having total freedom to come and go, and those who were just spectating wouldn't be able to steal any credit.

Personally.... 6 hrs. ON A GOOD DAY...any thing longer than that, and the monster can keep their leet gear, and i'll go watch pineapple express @ the movies.

Then fight it for 6 hours then leave. You don't have to stay there the entire time, infact it's recommended by SE to change players during the fight. Like you said, moderation is the key to everything, so you fight it for a while then leave.

Am I the only one who's absolutely fucking sick of difficulty being measured in time?

I've tried plenty of absurdly hard boss fights in other RPGs that took maybe 30-60 minutes (sometimes more but very rarely) that trumped this guy (Black Rabbite/Nemesis Weapon anyone?)

And there's plenty of "absurdly hard" boss battles in FFXI too, many of them on time limits. And none of them even come close to comparing to the might of AV and PW. Time is part of difficulty, marathons are harder to finish then sprints. It pushes everyone involved to their limits of endurance and drains you of your resources if you're not careful. So besides being insanely strong, these monsters are also insanely durable. Because if these two weren't, they'd end up being just another HNM.

SE didn't want these guys to become the next Kirin, and it looks like SE got what they wanted.

But your point was a very good one, there has to be some acceptable method of keeping players coming back, offering a reward/ non-absurd fight, along with a justifiable reward and at the same time a challenge.

But I like what SE did with the Zeni NM's which i think fixed the claim's problem, but it's almost like they completely forgot how they got their players to the final MOB and went back to silly ways. I dunno...

More often then not, as soon as people complete an impossible quest or defeat a super hard monster or finish a long, difficult mission chain, they'll quit not long after. When people have done everything, they lose reason to play. So with AV and PW, there's still that shining monument of something that has not been done...and many people want to be the ones to change that.

The ZNM system, from beginning to end, is perfect because it allows the casual players chances at fighting strong mobs with great drops without worry of botting or camping, while giving hard core players an impossible challenge to overcome. While most people will bitch and moan about these mobs they can not beat, there are still plenty of people who are trying to beat them.

And for the record, the first LSs to fight PW was there for 20+ hours and never commented about having the physical problems this last group did. And people have been running day long battles against AV for 3 years and never mentioned situations like this. My best guess, these guys were doing it wrong.

[Mog]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

And for the record, the first LSs to fight PW was there for 20+ hours and never commented about having the physical problems this last group did. And people have been running day long battles against AV for 3 years and never mentioned situations like this. My best guess, these guys were doing it wrong.

If BTL can't do it, then sure as hell nobody else can. < .> Also, ruke didn't mention, but other HNM linkshells were assisting on the lamps during the fight. It was a combined effort that lasted very long, but in the end, people just got worn out.

And of course they were doing it wrong. They didn't swap people out during the fight, which makes the whole alliance exhausted and unwilling to fight.

[Callisto]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

BTL members have stated repeatedly that it wasn't the amount of time played that got them anyways, it was the whole roller-coaster effect of OMFG we're making progress > FUCK another form > OMFG the final form > FUCK Astral Flow > OMFG recover > FUCK all that work for nothing. That sort of increase/decrease in adrenaline is going to make anyone nauseated regardless of what they're doing.

[Mog]

Re: So.. Pandemonium Warden

BTL members have stated repeatedly that it wasn't the amount of time played that got them anyways, it was the whole roller-coaster effect of OMFG we're making progress > FUCK another form > OMFG the final form > FUCK Astral Flow > OMFG recover > FUCK all that work for nothing. That sort of increase/decrease in adrenaline is going to make anyone nauseated regardless of what they're doing.

LOL Yeah. It's hard to know what to expect when fighting a mob for the first time. That many forms, and that feeling of getting closer to the end can definitely take a toll on people.