Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Maybe for someone geared towards DD, but for high def/vit tanking a 5% increase on a low dmg output (considering that's the increase for A rank skill at lvl 71+) isn't going to do much compared to the added emnity and stats, or at least it doesn't for me.

If you think a 5% increase to your sucky damage output isn't going to help (which means a straight-up 5% increase to the hate you make through melee damage), what makes you think that a 3% increase to the hate your sucky damage output makes is going to be better? You're looking at 5% vs 3% on matter how you slice it, and you can always swap in Warwolf for JAs and MAs if you really think that 3% matters.

[Celeal]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

With a few sword skill merit, Warwolf belt is *okay* for melee-xp build in certain exp. setup (like sushi + Bard + other ACC+ gear such as Hauby...). With ACC+ bonus from PLD/DNC plus a few sword merit, I can wear Warwolf full time in Campaign.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I want to see some wiki formula with the term '1.05 * Suck' in it.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

If you think a 5% increase to your sucky damage output isn't going to help (which means a straight-up 5% increase to the hate you make through melee damage), what makes you think that a 3% increase to the hate your sucky damage output makes is going to be better? You're looking at 5% vs 3% on matter how you slice it, and you can always swap in Warwolf for JAs and MAs if you really think that 3% matters.

See this is the kind of calculator approach that sucks the fun out of the game for me.

Why would I want to bother swaping in and out that +acc while losing the defense/vit from the belt in the process, just for a 2% increase on dmg hate (which is 2% of whatever fraction melee dmg is from my overall hate generation.)

Also, I thought DEX gave acc at a 2 to 1 rate, so even if I'm not wearing the belt I'm still getting a 2.5 acc, which would translate to what, 1.25% on top of the 3% from emnity while keeping the VIT/DEF bonus from Warwolf, not even counting DEX itself and the +att from the STR stat.

So really, is it really worth trading the simultaneous boost on many stats to get a bit more dmg hate? Also, does that 5% increase really make a bigger difference in a short fight (merits) or a long fight (missions/NM/etc.) to really overshadow the stat bonues from Warwolf? I mean if we are talking about fractions of a percentage I really don't see how it would make that much of a difference outside a theorical setting. In fact I've tested both belts for quite some time and for my playstyle Warwolf wins by far.

Not to mention the extra inventory load on my already full gobbie bag.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

So really, is it really worth trading the simultaneous boost on many stats to get a bit more dmg hate? Also, does that 5% increase really make a bigger difference in a short fight (merits) or a long fight (missions/NM/etc.) to really overshadow the stat bonues from Warwolf?

I feel it's the other way around personally, in merits you're essentially fighting the same mob for 3 hours, where in missions/BCs/whatever you're only fighting the 20 minutes. The larger sample size of many mobs/hours in merits is what expounds upon the seemingly minute differences in gear choices.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

See this is the kind of calculator approach that sucks the fun out of the game for me.

Being efficient is fun. I know I have fun when I do 15-20% of the party's damage output and the DDs don't give me enough to do.

The difference between doing 5% more damage and doing 2% more damage and having 3% more hate is that the Acc kills mob, Enmity doesn't. You may dismiss the Warwolf VS Life Belt debate as trivial, but it's not just the belt slot. When you expand that to cover all gear slots - Acc ring vs Hercules, Fourth Gauntlets vs Gallant Gauntlets, Haubergeon vs Gallant Surcoat, then we're not talking of a mere 2-3% here. Now I have about 15-20% more hit rate than you.

And here's the thing about Accuracy. Accuracy is a double whammy stat, just like Haste. I don't JUST do 15% more hits. I do 15% more hits AND WS 15% more often. The net gain is much bigger.
______________________________
Then you have to take into account that the more you turtle the more you're relying on JAs and Cures for hate. What do those things have in common? You can only use so much of it over a given time period (there's recasts on JAs, and you can only recover so much MP over time for Cures.) On top of that, most of the enmity generated by JAs and Cures is volatile, which means that you may have spiked hate now, but you're not keeping it in the long run.
______________________________
Damage is "free" hate. The more damage you do, the less resources (JAs and MP) you need to use to keep hate. Don't want to be blinking like a traffic light? Then don't. If you went pseudo-DD you wouldn't need to be stacking Enmity everywhere. I fight with just 2 Enmity, and that's because I don't have a good DD headpiece to put on my head. I don't bother macroing in any Enmity gear into my actions. I still hold hate just fine with just Flash and Provoke, my WS and my damage. I use Cure once per fight because otherwise I'd be sitting on full MP, and I toss Sentinel every 5 minutes because of the damage reduction, but I rarely ever have to toss Warcry/Rampart/Shield Bash/Cover.
______________________________
Besides, even if both methods held hate equally, doing more damage kills the mob faster. That means more dead mobs and more EXP. That alone is reason enough.

P.S. Pardon the multiple posts, I have some malware on my PC that prevents me from making posts that are too long. That means I can't delete the part I copied twice accidentally either.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I feel it's the other way around personally, in merits you're essentially fighting the same mob for 3 hours, where in missions/BCs/whatever you're only fighting the 20 minutes. The larger sample size of many mobs/hours in merits is what expounds upon the seemingly minute differences in gear choices.

But what I mean by that is:

In the end what gives you more bang for your buck? In fast paced fights what will make more of a difference, and extra 3.75% hit rate or the combined bonus from all the stats Warwolf gives you (DEF/VIT/STR/DEX/Emnity/Acc/Att)?

Same with a long fight, will that 3.75% "increase" in hit rate/hate really give you more benefits than the overall boosts from Warwolf?

Keep in mind this is for high defense tanking with very little focus on dmg output. My objective is to keep as much attention from the mob as possible while taking as little dmg as possible, which relies a lot more on spells and job abilities than melee damage.

The main reason why a PLD can't function in a merit party is MP, we can turtle really good for a chain 5, but after that we simply run out of gas (or MP), which is why a PLD playing it like a WAR with swords is better in that setting, but still a burden no matter how you slice it.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

The math and logic behind the approach remains the same regardless of the fight's duration. The DD setup still builds hate better and kills faster. Besides, like Callisto pointed out, EXP is technically like fighting 2-3 hours straight. It doesn't make a difference that there are small gaps between fights.

'Sides, we can't tank in merits but we can do some decent DD while supporting with Flash, Sentinel, Cover, Cures, etc. A DD that can back-up heal and temp-tank is a good thing.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

And that's exactly why I don't party as a PLD.

I leveled the job to tank, and if I can't do that then I rather play another job that will help the party more while being more fun for me to play, that's all.


There's one thing I'm curious about though, has anyone parsed info on the DD approach versus turtle approach with the PLD actually tanking? Not support curing while hate bounces around /NIN DDs, but the PLD actually keeping hate and tanking while wearing full DD gear.

Dmg dealt, dmg taken, HP lost, MP used to heal that HP lost, Emnity lost due to HP loss, Emnity gained due to dmg dealt, etc. the whole picture without focusing only on the dmg output.

Because in all my ddPLD experiences I have yet to see a PLD that can actually tank in the party without becoming a MP sponge or just losing hate and becoming just another DD (which at least one time ended up with the PLD being kicked out and replaced by a NIN because he refused to even try going turtle instead).

Of course I don't parse things, but when your mages tell you every time they have way more MP with you turtle'ing it, and DDs don't get hit just for swinging their weapon or even doing their SA+WS thing then something must be wrong with the PLD you just replaced.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Well, this is getting old and redundant quick. Just try it, it won't kill you.

Because in all my ddPLD experiences I have yet to see a PLD that can actually tank in the party without becoming a MP sponge or just losing hate and becoming just another DD (which at least one time ended up with the PLD being kicked out and replaced by a NIN because he refused to even try going turtle instead).

Of course I don't parse things, but when your mages tell you every time they have way more MP with you turtle'ing it, and DDs don't get hit just for swinging their weapon or even doing their SA+WS thing then something must be wrong with the PLD you just replaced.

Again, you don't judge a job's potential based on lolPickup Parties. Most players suck. PLDs included. It should come as no surprise that you're getting DD PLDs that fail. Most of PLDs fail in the first place, some of them just happen to be DD PLDs.

I haven't parsed them side by side because the first time I changed approach, the benefits were obvious. I do have parses of DD PLD action, I think the numbers speak for themselves.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Well, this is getting old and redundant quick. Just try it, it won't kill you.

Maybe some day.

Again, you don't judge a job's potential based on lolPickup Parties. Most players suck. PLDs included. It should come as no surprise that you're getting DD PLDs that fail. Most of PLDs fail in the first place, some of them just happen to be DD PLDs.

A job's viability is always judged by the average though. But with enough data about it you might be able to change people's approach (gear/strat-wise) to the DD style.

I haven't parsed them side by side because the first time I changed approach, the benefits were obvious. I do have parses of DD PLD action, I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Those numbers look more decent than I thought, what job/sub level were you and what gear were you using?

Now I'm really curious about seeing a proper Turtle tank's info.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/WAR, and it appears about 69-71~ >.>

Opened a parse in notepad, I can see where he was /checking Gobs that were coming up VT, lol.

Add:

Armando readies Vorpal Blade.1 6e
[Vorpal Blade TP return: 11%!] ce
Armando uses Vorpal Blade. 14
The Hobgoblin Venerer takes 823 points of damage.

Nice, lol.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

A job's viability is always judged by the average though. But with enough data about it you might be able to change people's approach (gear/strat-wise) to the DD style.

I am average. My gear isn't spectacular. I am lazy with my gear swaps. However, I perform well. Not great, well. So average. EXP parties are composed of, for the most part, either stupid, ignorant, or misinformed people. I've been playing for 5 years and WARs spamming Shield Break STILL isn't a standard practice. People started to catch on to the DD PLD thing around the time of ToAU's release, yet people STILL run around with lolGluttony Swords.

Those numbers look more decent than I thought, what job/sub level were you and what gear were you using?

The Bibiki parties were 65-68'ish, had a BRD in some of them. Save the Queen, RK Army Shield, RG Collar/Shield Torque, Double Woodsmans or Woodsman + Jelly Ring, Assault + Fang earrings, Haubergeon, Life Belt, Amemet Mantle, the rest is AF.

Caedarva party is 71 I think. Same gear except I have Joyeuse Reprisal.

Callisto: Yeah, every now and then Jeebus lets me know he loves me. I was doing Royal Jelly a few days back and did a 4-hit Sturmwind, that Jelly didn't last long. Still, with or without a BRD, the luck needed to pull off a 6-hit Vorpal AND land everything in EXP is just insane. Fortunately I have the screenshot to prove it lol. But I'm at work.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Man I loved my Gluttony sword

I don't remember if Save the Queen was already in the game at the time I got to that level though.

And then again I don't have a Joy and probably never will.




Edit > I think I was using Espadon +1 at that level, so I probably didn't even know about StQ. Probably would've picked Espadon over it anyway.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Callisto: Yeah, every now and then Jeebus lets me know he loves me. I was doing Royal Jelly a few days back and did a 4-hit Sturmwind, that Jelly didn't last long. Still, with or without a BRD, the luck needed to pull off a 6-hit Vorpal AND land everything in EXP is just insane. Fortunately I have the screenshot to prove it lol. But I'm at work.

I actually wasn't aware that you could DA twice in the same WS, lol. I've had a few really nice 600+ 5-hits so far, but so far my jewel was on Erucas @ 67, I had company over and was distracted and accidentally held TP til 300, DRG uses Wheeling and I lay down a 3-hit 800+ Savage with mirrored Light, I wish the fight would have been longer because at that point I no longer needed JAs or spells for hate.