Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Raydeus: I forgive you because there was a time I would've picked Gluttony Sword blindly as well. Espadon +1 is the standard choice for a weapon anyways. I used StQ because it's insanely underrated, looks great, and the +20 Accuracy latent makes for some sick Vorpals.

Callisto: Shame on you. http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...during-ws.html Long story short, the findings were that 2-4 hit WS can DA twice, and that 5-hit WS can theoretically DA thrice. The probabilities of the grand triple DA are goddamned unreasonable, but that's still three checks being done which means increased chances of single and double DAs.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Heheh, plus Gluttony looked awesome.

What did you use from 57 to 65 though? I went from Gluttony to Espadon, and StQ is about the same level.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Tactician Magician's Espadon +2 and Bastard Sword +1. Although in retrospect considering the slow-ass sale rate of Bastard Sword +1, should've stuck to T.M. Espadon +2. That weapon eats every other weapon alive.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

That's interesting, I upgraded to Gluttony from TM Espadon I think (I say I think because I don't remember, it's been years, but I have it on my weapons mule ).

The only bad thing about Gluttony is that it's indeed too slow, but my tanking got much better after I got it. Maybe I'll try TM +2 for 60 cap fights if I can get it though (hope it isn't too expensive.)

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

It's as expensive as Gluttony. That's why there's no reason to have Gluttony, since T.M. +2 has better DPS than ANY one-handed weapon (sword or not) at that level AND comes with +12 Attack. And comes 5 levels sooner.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

VIT +7 was more than enough reason for me to use it, and still is. <_<

But considering by lvl 60 I have decent enough VIT/DEF - sacrificing those 7 VIT for +1 in all other stats plus a better damage output is worth a try.



Edit > Same with Haubergeon, although at the time it was waaaaay more expensive so I never even thought about it. That's an 11 VIT loss there, but still worth a try (for the price) if I keep tanking food.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

You're giving VIT way too much weight. -11 VIT means the mob has 3 more DMG. You, on the other hand, gained 6 STR, 25 Attack, +6.5% hit rate, and 8.6% DMG/sec from the Haub and the T.M. Espadon +2. There's just no way you can argue that the Haub and TM Espadon aren't better. You can't even parse the difference that the 11 VIT loss would make, let alone try to notice it though eyeballing.

VIT just isn't an effective means of damage reduction past the mid levels.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

What do you mean you can't even parse the difference between having and not those 11 VIT? If VIT/DEF don't make that much of a difference then why DD PLDs take so much damage, and why when they go back to turtling it things work so much better?

I've tried tanking with less VIT/DEF because I was curious about it and didn't like at all what I saw.

Having good dmg output is nice and all, but not if it comes at the expense of your tanking (as in dmg mitigation) or your ability to hold hate from DDs. For instance, in those parsings where you did a big % of dmg. It makes me wonder if it was because the DDs had to hold back as not to pull hate from you or if they were really going out the way they do with a turtle PLD.

Is there some place where I can see parsing data of different VIT/DEF amounts' effect?

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Partying, expect heavy bluntness.

What do you mean you can't even parse the difference between having and not those 11 VIT? If VIT/DEF don't make that much of a difference then why DD PLDs take so much damage, and why when they go back to turtling it things work so much better?

Lack of defense food will do that. On the other hand the Sushi boosts your damage more than you can begin to imagine.

I've tried tanking with less VIT/DEF because I was curious about it and didn't like at all what I saw.

Placebo. Unless you ate sushi or decided to put on a helmet with no Def you could not have possibly noticed the difference. I WISH I could eye-parse like that.
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Having good dmg output is nice and all, but not if it comes at the expense of your tanking (as in dmg mitigation) or your ability to hold hate from DDs. For instance, in those parsings where you did a big % of dmg. It makes me wonder if it was because the DDs had to hold back as not to pull hate from you or if they were really going out the way they do with a turtle PLD.

Your PLDs sucked. Plain and simple. The only thing that you can argue is that DD PLD takes more damage per hit than a turtle PLD, but a DD PLD ends fights shorter so who takes more damage can go either way. You cannot however argue that a DD PLD holds hate worse because the hate I generate through the DD style far exceeded what I made while turtling, and all I have to do is engage and WS to do that.
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Is there some place where I can see parsing data of different VIT/DEF amounts' effect?

This party is too good, I refuse to gimp it with Defense food right now. PLD DRG DRG THF RDM SCH pulling Imps at Caedarva Nyzul entrance. So much MP that I'm tanking with Berserk up full time and we still have no downtime. Going turtle here would make me lose hate and kill slower. As of right now I'm doing 25% of the party's damage while the two DRGs are doing 25/26% + 5/6% from Wyverns. THF is pulling and leaving early so he's only doing 12.5%. Will post parse later.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Lack of defense food will do that. On the other hand the Sushi boosts your damage more than you can begin to imagine.

I've seen PLDs use both foods and abviously the Sushi guy took as much dmg as any other DD getting hit, hence becoming the MP sponge I've been talking about. And being a tank and not a DD I have no reason to put dmg over defense anyway.

Placebo. Unless you ate sushi or decided to put on a helmet with no Def you could not have possibly noticed the difference. I WISH I could eye-parse like that.

That must be one heck of a placebo to make entire parties (not a party, parties) notice the exact same thing without me even mentioning anything about it. Heck I was playing BRD in those parties so the other players were always in a much better position to make a judgement of the situation. (I mostly noticed the PLDs taking a beating and bleeding MP/HP/Emnity in between songs really)

Also, just because the numbers in a parser say one thing that doesn't necesarily mean that's all there is to it. On the contrary, parsed data is just a part of what happens in the entire party. It has a value as a source of information, but to judge situations entirely by what the numbers say seems like a mistake to me.

Your PLDs sucked. Plain and simple. The only thing that you can argue is that DD PLD takes more damage per hit than a turtle PLD, but a DD PLD ends fights shorter so who takes more damage can go either way. You cannot however argue that a DD PLD holds hate worse because the hate I generate through the DD style far exceeded what I made while turtling, and all I have to do is engage and WS to do that.

From what I've seen the increase in damage taken more than negates any gain from DD hate, it probably is because those guys go completely retarded and disregard DEF/VIT completely*, but the end result is always the same.

They take more damage, then become MP sponges, then lose any initial hate they might've generated with their WS dmg due to HP loss, and then DDs (and healers) end up tanking.

*They seem to forget the only difference between them and any other DD is they have the liberty to equip better defensive armor, and without it they are no more resilient than any other DD,

This party is too good, I refuse to gimp it with Defense food right now. PLD DRG DRG THF RDM SCH pulling Imps at Caedarva Nyzul entrance. So much MP that I'm tanking with Berserk up full time and we still have no downtime. Going turtle here would make me lose hate and kill slower. As of right now I'm doing 25% of the party's damage while the two DRGs are doing 25/26% + 5/6% from Wyverns. THF is pulling and leaving early so he's only doing 12.5%. Will post parse later.

You really don't have to, I was just asking where I could get detailed info on VIT/DEF rates and their effect to have a better idea of how that worked.

From personal experience I know there's a point where you hit some sort of soft cap after which no matter how much DEF/VIT you add the mob's dmg output wont go further below. That's the limit I play with to add other stats to enhance dmg and others.

----

And just to clarify, I'm not dismissing the benefits from a greater dmg output, on the contrary, I tank without defender as much as I can and try to add things like acc/att whenever possible. But my main focus is and always will be damage mitigation and hate control (so DDs can do more dmg on my behalf and healers have an easier time.) Damage output will always be considered after that's taken care of.

[Taskmage]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Believe it or not, try it or not. This discussion seems to be chasing its tail. Clearly neither of you is going to be convinced of the other's position by anything but a side by side comparison but neither is willing to give the other method a fair shake in order to do that. Mathematical models, rhetoric and anecdotal evidence aren't getting anywhere.

Personally I'm having great success with the DDpld style so far. I can hold hate solidly off "real" DDs provided they don't do any suicide moves like opening the fight with a WS or stacking berserk+last resort+souleater and my party's downtime is minimal, so I don't see the purpose of adding more defensive stats at the expense of offensive ones.

You really don't have to, I was just asking where I could get detailed info on VIT/DEF rates and their effect to have a better idea of how that worked.

Calculating Physical Damage - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki — Click through the links on the equation. Base damage deals with str vs vit and pDIF is attack vs defense. It's not really a matter of a soft cap so much as diminishing returns.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

*They seem to forget the only difference between them and any other DD is they have the liberty to equip better defensive armor, and without it they are no more resilient than any other DD,

Wrong, we have four levels of Defense Bonus, we have a native ~25% damage reduction from Size 3 shields, native ~20-30% evasion rate through Flash a mini-invincible on a 5 minute timer and the ability to heal back some of the damage we take (which is just as good as having mitigated it.) Even if I bring myself down to the Defense level of a standard DD, I'm still more suited to take hits than they are.

From what I've seen the increase in damage taken more than negates any gain from DD hate, it probably is because those guys go completely retarded and disregard DEF/VIT completely*, but the end result is always the same.

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be said, but your PLDs are doing something wrong, your party is overhunting, or they're trying to go DD in a party setup that has very little curing and very little Refresh. What you observe isn't how a properly played DD PLD works at all.

Just to prove my point, here are two parses from Friday night and Saturday evening in which we had so much healing power, I was tanking with Berserk and Sushi full time and we still had no downtime.
______________________________
Friday party, Part 1
Camp: Caedarva Mire (Nyzul Isle camp)
Armando (PLD/WAR), Sanctuary (DRG/WAR), Hien (Sanctuary's Wyvern), Duskmihza (DRG/SAM), Duke (Duskmihza's Wyvern), Himurakenshin (THF/NIN, puller), Ganto (RDM), Ikakat (SCH)

Friday party, Part 2
Camp: Caedarva Mire (Nyzul Isle camp)
Armando (PLD/WAR), Liquidonion (SAM), Duskmihza (DRG/SAM), Duke (Duskmihza's Wyvern), Himurakenshin (THF/NIN, puller), Ganto (RDM), Ikakat (SCH)

Saturday party
Camp: Caedarva Mire (Nyzul Isle camp)
Armando (PLD/WAR), Chameleon (PUP/WAR), Histrion (Ranger puppet), ! Spam !! Spam !! Spam !! Spam !! Spam !an (DRK), Printf (DRK), Koux (COR/NIN), Ganto (RDM)

Went 72-73 on Friday and went 73-74 on Saturday. Gear was the following:
Joyeuse/Iron Ram Shield, Bibiki Seashell, Gallant Coronet, R.G. Collar, Fang Earring, Insomnia Earring, Haubergeon, Dusk Gloves, Woodsman + Venerer Rings, Amemet Mantle, Dusk Trousers, Gallant Leggings. Used sushi and Berserk full time on both parties. Was receiving Phalanx, Haste, Refresh, Stoneskin and Regen II during the first half of Friday's party. Started getting Enwater as well during the second half. On Saturday, started with Chaos + Evoker's Roll, was doing fine so switched it up to Chaos + Hunter's midway.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

We had practically 0 downtime, chain 5-6 every time, constant pulls, and I held hate through the whole thing. Going turtle in this party wouldn't have yielded any benefits because downtime was already not an issue; I'd have made less hate, making things messier, and fights would've lasted longer as well. This is an extreme case, but it just goes to show that if I can tank with Berserk and still perform excellently, switching from Def food to Sushi without the Berserk ain't that big of a deal.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I made the transition between defensive PLD to DD/hybrid PLD on Imps; forgot what level at the time, but I could definitely felt the difference in the amount of damage taken. And, I could definitely see the improvement in damage dealt.

To be perfectly honest, even doing the two style back to back, I couldn't really say on which setup I tanked better. Seemed like the higher level one gets to, how well a PLD tanks in an exp party becomes more capped by how strong the DDs. Once they become strong enough, tanking just isn't viable without Trick Attack. ._.

For me, the main reason to switch to DD is efficiency. If you can't tank--at least, if you can't tank and keep chain--you might as well contribute damage instead of trying to hold on the monsters with a death grip. So, switch o DD-style, up to the point that the available MP for curing can support.

* * *

I don't want to deal with uploading parses, but here are some numbers from my last merit party with my LS. The BRD and myself have a Sea/Sky LS, so we had a bit more options for gears than the rest of the party, but the DDs do have various Rare/Ex Assault/Dyanmis equipment on top of reasonable AH gear and standard items like Swift Belt, Walahra Turban, and Optical Hat. No one TP and WS in the same gears, that's for sure. (Think the MNK even had a borrowed Byakko's Haidate.)


Target: Mamool Ja and Puks

PLD/NIN (me)
Dmg: 18.83% (Melee: 53164; WS: 21506)
M.Acc: 80.28%
WS.Avg: 325.85
WS #: 66
Heal: 20586

RNG/NIN:
Dmg: 26.24% (Melee: 8520; Ranged: 41348; Ability: 4805; WS: 49417)
R.Acc: 86.01%
M.Acc: 65.18%
WS.Avg: 1098.16
WS #": 49

DRK (/NIN?):
Dmg: 26.87% (Melee: 57777; Spell: 2312; Ability: 124; WS: 46111)
M.Acc: 76.67%
WS.Avg: 631.66
WS #: 73

MNK/NIN:
Dmg: 26.26% (Melee: 75812; Ability: 594; WS: 27626)
M.Acc: 78.58%
WS.Avg: 511.59
WS #: 54

RDM/WHM:
Heal: 25472

BRD/NIN:
(No useful numbers to talk about. ^_^; Not sure what she did; probably went with March + Minuet with an occasional single target Ballad for me.)



My gears:
TP gear: Item Sets - FFXIAH.com (Sans Homam; didn't have it at the time, and was using Dusk Gloves.)

WS gear: Item Sets - FFXIAH.com

Obviously, my damage output was pathetic compared to the real DDs; around 18% of the total compared to their ~26% each. But, I performed usefully, IMO. Flash allowed the BRD to run off to Ballad the RDM or to pull more. I handled a substantial amount of curing during battle (~20k HP vs. RDM's ~25k HP). And, I reduced the the overall damage others took, even though usually I really only 'tanked' until someone used a weaponskill.

All the DDs and myself have merits in the skills for the weapons we were using, though I only know the exact amount for myself (Sword Lv.4). In light of that, I think my DD output was... OK-ish. Nothing to brag about, but no need to hide, either.

IMO, PLD can earn a place in merit party. Not as "tank", and not even as "DD". But, as a hybrid job--pry critters off the puller, reduce damage taken by others, help cure, and contribute some damage. It is especially good in those single mage parties; an additional cure source really helps the party to keep going instead of stopping because the front line took extra damage for a battle or two and the healer run out of MP.

It may not be real tanking or real DD'ing, but it is fun. And, challenging.

I definitely recommend it to every PLD to at least try to put together a DD set by the time he or she reaches Lv.70. (Or earlier.) Though, I'm not promising it'd lead to a better invite rate--my DD PLD is pretty much LS party only.

* * *
Edit:

"Pry critters off of the puller" is a very important job. >_>b

In a "PUG" merit party last night: NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, SAM/WAR, SAM/THF, RDM/WHM (me), WHM/SCH; on Colibri. Neither one of the SAM volunteered to pull. (Probably no ranged weapon.) ._. The NIN ended up pulling with Tsurara after each fight. Needless to say, we were waiting a long time between each fight.

So, I volunteered to pull, and we began to fight real merit style, no more stopping between fights to pull. (Though, still weren't terribly fast paced--the DD's just weren't that strong.)

A funny thing happened after 10 birds or so; the NIN stopped using Provoke regularly. Sometimes the WAR would catch that and provoke, sometimes they'd both provoke, and sometimes no one provoked. >_<; So, often, one of them would hit the Bird, who then fly after me so no one can hit it for a few seconds. When we were competing with another party, that was a severe liability--I needed to run off early to grab birds from long distances--sometimes I drag the engaged bird a good distance before I noticed it was following me. >_>;

It got so bad that once the other party left, I just try to stand near the sleeping Colibris and let it hit me. Sometimes, though, the birds still flew away from DDs because I was in mid cast while standing elsewhere.

My Stoneskins took severe abuse from that. I ended up spending tons of time and MP reapplying Stoneskin and curing (Not all extra cures were for myself--both SAMs were sucking up curing MP. Think the SAM/WAR liked to Provoke before WS for Overwhelm, and the other one liked big numbers from SA+WS. >_< ) I rarely run out of MP before Convert is up in most merit parties, but it happened 3-4 times in this 13k exp party. (With ring, too!)

In short, the lack of a regular provoke/flash at the start of the battle made a already slow group even slower, and more dangerous.

So, anyway, the moral of the story: "Pry critters off the puller" may not sound very glamorous, but it's important. Don't just dismiss that and snub it with "But it's not tanking!"

[Nuriko]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

It sounds like another thing worth remembering is that DD vs. turtle isn't exactly an all-or-nothing sort of thing, and some pieces will give you more for one style or the other...