Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

To expand on Callisto's post: Every 4 VIT or so drops the mob's DMG by 1 much like every 4 STR increases our DMG by 1. This means a whole lot more at low levels when the mob only has 10-20 DMG. As you go up, the mob starts getting 50, 60, 70, 80 damage, but you're still only shaving off 1 DMG per every 4 VIT. The amount of VIT you get as you level up doesn't scale up on par with that. You start with +2 VIT rings at Level 14, and by Lv.36 you only have +3 VIT rings. By 75 the best you can have is a mere +5 VIT per ring.
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In addition to that, as you level up, the stats you sacrifice to gear up for VIT continue to increase. If you use a Medieval Gorget (3 VIT) you're sacrificing 4 Acc and Attack from R.G. Collar or 7 Shield Skill from Shield Torque. If you use Warrior's Belt +1 (3 VIT) you sacrifice 10 Acc from Life Belt. If you wear Gallant Surcoat (4 VIT) you're sacrificing 12.5 Acc and Attack from Haubergeon. If you wear Verve Rings (+3 VIT) you're sacrificing 5 Acc from Woodsman Rings or a straight -5% damage taken from Jelly Ring. It's not too big of a problem at low levels because you don't have too many alternatives to begin with and VIT is still giving you plenty of mileage for your buck.
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Then there's the fact that at higher levels, you start mitigating damage in other ways. You start getting 3-5 MP/tick Refresh, you get Flash, you get Sentinel, you get Reprisal for shield blocks. SMNs, SCHs and BLUs can provide such things as AoE Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, and Regens. At low levels, your options are limited and you're still taking most hits directly to the face.

Strictly speaking it's not that VIT does less, just that it doesn't improve along with other stats.

[Firewind]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

People who say that Blink Tanks are less of an MP sponge then Paladins have never levelled WHM before. I don't think I've ever had more then 40% MP with a blink tank in the party.

[little ninja]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

People who say that Blink Tanks are less of an MP sponge then Paladins have never levelled WHM before. I don't think I've ever had more then 40% MP with a blink tank in the party.

Then either A. They stink, B. They stink, C. They stink, or D. You cure to much...


The Beastmaster Chr isn't broke. I think at 75 we just get a real crummy soft cap. I would imagine that its sorta like the haste cap from equipment. I really have noticed no difference from +25chr, and +60chr. In fact I think the more I add the worse my charm was. But thats just because the mischarms were closer together when I had more Chr gear.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Pick-up parties are not representative of a job's potential. Most pick-up PLDs I see in EXP suck something awful. The difference is that a shitty PLD can perform in a borderline acceptable manner, whereas a shitty ninja crashes and burns completely.

[Firewind]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I am aware that PLD tanking is a LOT harder to screw up. But when you're regularly down to less than 20% of your MP pool when fighting VT's and the BARD is having to assist you with cures know something is badly wrong. And pick up parties always wonder why I insist that they pull some toughs to warm up on. Some setups just don't work and some places (I'm looking at Garliage and Quicksand Caves in particular) are just plain horrible places to be in at any level. I would like to know if the players that were just banded together will work well before we start pulling anything that could actually kill the party.

[Elvtin]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

To expand on Callisto's post: Every 4 VIT or so drops the mob's DMG by 1 much like every 4 STR increases our DMG by 1.

I thought it was every 2 str = 1 dmg.. Like every 2 dex = 1 acc..

That change at one point?

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I am aware that PLD tanking is a LOT harder to screw up. But when you're regularly down to less than 20% of your MP pool when fighting VT's and the BARD is having to assist you with cures know something is badly wrong.

I agree that something is very wrong, but I doubt it's the job. It's more likely that the player just sucks. If I could tank IT mobs with no Haste and practically 0 Evasion gear from 37-40 I fail to see how a skilled high level NIN could ever possibly suck that hard against a VT mob with a BRD. Much less with a WHM using Flash.

Elvtin, you're thinking of 2 STR giving 1 Attack for one-handed weapons.

[Celeal]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

People who say that Blink Tanks are less of an MP sponge then Paladins have never levelled WHM before. I don't think I've ever had more then 40% MP with a blink tank in the party.

IMHO, if a Mage is not using his/her MP, it is a waste of party slot. I consider average of MP half-filled throughout the exp. flow is good in general cases: When I tank as PLD or NIN also look as healer's rate MP consumption & recovery to evaluate the overall performance. At the end, it is how fast you use your MP vs. how fast you can recover the MP you have used that matters.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Pick-up parties are not representative of a job's potential. Most pick-up PLDs I see in EXP suck something awful. The difference is that a shitty PLD can perform in a borderline acceptable manner, whereas a shitty ninja crashes and burns completely.

You should see my PLD, it's getting sexy! >.>

I don't know when the hell I'm going to get to finish it though, now I have to keep up with nightly LS events, finish Half-Life 2, and start MGS4 without missing work.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I am aware that PLD tanking is a LOT harder to screw up. But when you're regularly down to less than 20% of your MP pool when fighting VT's and the BARD is having to assist you with cures know something is badly wrong. And pick up parties always wonder why I insist that they pull some toughs to warm up on. Some setups just don't work and some places (I'm looking at Garliage and Quicksand Caves in particular) are just plain horrible places to be in at any level. I would like to know if the players that were just banded together will work well before we start pulling anything that could actually kill the party.

So you don't care for blink tanks, and mention Quicksand Caves as a sore spot. Did your party have a NIN blink tank spiders? Spiders are NIN killers. They spam AoE slow that overwrites Haste, and they have a wonderful way of timing Sickle Slash right as shadows go down.

This goes back to what Lago said: it's situational. All 3 tanks have their place in this game. Yes, I said THREE tanks. And before people chime in with RDM or BLU or DNC, I'm referring to WAR. They don't all excel against the same mobs or in the same activities.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

I had the same questions when I first moved from turtle to hybrid, Armando helped out a lot. The biggest issue is over-hunting. If the mob is IT++++, yeah you need to turtle up a bit, when it's high VT-lower IT that's the prime time for DDadin. I personally keep 3 main sets(at 67, will have more like 5-7 sets at 75), Enmity, TP, and WS, with a single macro to tack on Parade Gorget. You'd be surprised at the minimal differences in defense between the sets, as most heavy DD gear(i.e. Hauby, R.K. Breeches, Fourth Gauntlets) actually has relatively high defense, and at most I think I'm missing out on about 8 VIT, as even my turtle setup focuses on Enmity rather than VIT/DEF.

The real difference comes from 2 things: Food and Defender. Even if I'm turtling up now, I'll still swap to my TP/WS sets as normal, but I'll use Defender. In the mid 40's I was gauging it by the first few fights, if the mobs kicked my head in I would go with Crab, if not then Sushi.

The level where I found it completley comfortable to do full on DDadin was around 55, whenever you get Vorpal with full Sword merits. Since you're on Colibri food's not really an option, and you get used to only popping Defender when you really need it. Otherwise the important thing is just hold hate, and let the support and incoming Refresh keep you alive. Once I hit 60 I was pretty much in full-on DD mode, while still not a first tier DD I've put up some respectable #'s, 600+ Vorpals in the mid 60's, and if you have a SAM doing Gekko closing with Swift goes a long way for damage/hate, even if the WS itself doesn't do huge damage.
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And before people chime in with RDM or BLU or DNC, I'm referring to WAR.

Pffffffffftttt

[Taskmage]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

I have been for the most part following Armando's pld equipment page linked on the previous page and I've been pretty happy with the result. The gap in defense between offensively natured gear and turtle gear hasn't been very large at all from what I've seen so far. Just stay away from things that offer no def whatsoever like emp pin and you should end up with an acceptable number. Once DD and tank gear start diverging from eachother you get things like kite shields and sentinel and flash to compensate for any loss. That's my experience up to 40 anyway.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

What they said. This in particular: "The real difference comes from 2 things: Food and Defender" needs to be emphasized. I use almost exactly the same gear setup for every EXP party. Sometimes I'll switch around R.G. Collar and Shield Torque, or a Woodsman Ring with Jelly Ring, but that's about it. The difference between old-school PLD equip and hybrid equip is relatively small, that's why we lean towards the latter - lose little, gain plenty. The big difference comes from the big buffs. If the party insists on fighting mobs 10-12 levels higher than me then I keep the same gear but I either drop sushi and eat defense food or I keep the sushi but pop Defender.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

or a Woodsman Ring with Jelly Ring

Yeah that's the only static piece in my entire setup, the right ring slot, depending on party it's either a Woodsman, a Hercules', or a Jelly, and regardless of what set I switch to it stays the same. This is also largely due to console macro limitations, though.