A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Right. Things change. Its called deflation.

Since crystals now sell for 1/5th their price, other items now sell for 1/5th thei-oh wait. No thats not what happened.

Actually, there are items which now sell for 1/10th of the previous value, or even less. Not everything changes in price at the same rate. Scorpion Harness has probably reduced in price more than staples such as crystals. There are now more gear alternatives to SH, but the number of NQ SH in circulation continues to increase. So beyond just the expected deflation, SH is now less ought after in the eyes of the player base than it once was.

Crystals are also a very volatile market. A few weeks ago, a stack of wind crystals on my server probably went for around 500 gil. Today, they're fetching around 900 to 1k gil. In a few more weeks, it may be back down to 500 gil a stack. The difference of a few hundred gil in price may not seem like much. But that's a large percentage change given the relatively low price.

Crystals are just so volatile that it's not the best measuring stick to compare durables against. That pair of Leaping Boots or Emperor Hairpin isn't going to vary in price nearly as wildly as a stack of crystals.

When you have memories of a decked out SAM/WAR smacking tough vultures without breaking a sweat(and this was before the two-handed update), and then die from a DC vulture as a level 5 MNK/none at full health, you'd be grouchy as well.

I don't come and vent on the forums when I'm grouchy.

[Mhurron]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Since crystals now sell for 1/5th their price, other items now sell for 1/5th thei-oh wait. No thats not what happened.

Yes, because everything changes exactly the same way, it has nothing to do with the value or supply of the item.

Things are slightly more complicated then they taught you in 1st grade math.

[ishio]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

if you died against a DC vulture as a lvl 5 mnk from full health, your gear had very little to do with it. I dunno what happened to you, but I was killing EM recently at that level with a little effort, with no subjob, on a new taru character I created.

Yea, its the mob type. I could kill EM quadavs at that level with a 100% chance of winning. But when I died to that DC vulture, one of its special attacks knocked out nearly a quarter of my health. When it did that a second time in the same fight, well... thats not good. And thats the first mob that drops fire crystals around Bastok.

They aren't a problem anymore now that h2h and evasion skills rose a bit, but I wouldn't need to if I had the equipment.

Yes, because everything changes exactly the same way, it has nothing to do with the value or supply of the item.

Things are slightly more complicated then they taught you in 1st grade math.

Right, it has nothing to do with the value or supply of the item. There's more emperor hairpin supply now that there's 2 ways for them to drop, and yet the price increased.

Things are slightly more complicated than what they taught you in high school economics.

[nanatsu]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

h2h skill raises your attack and accuracy. At level 5 there's nothing that does that. Nothing that raises your evasion either. At most you get an extra couple points of defense. Maybe 1 more dmg on your +1 weapon. That's not going to make or break a fight at any level other than perhaps level 1.

As mnk I went out with nothing but my fists, attack food, and RSE gear and killed EM-T rarabs in sarutabaruta. Then I moved on to EM crows at level 3. I didn't equip a weapon until lvl 9 and didn't upgrade my RSE until lvl 8. Again, your gear selection at that level is pointless. The reason why your SAM probably did better was because you had a subjob and you had a 2hand weapon which practically slaughters anything at a low level.

[Iarendiel]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Right, it has nothing to do with the value or supply of the item. There's more emperor hairpin supply now that there's 2 ways for them to drop, and yet the price increased.

As far as I know, you can only obtain an Emperor's Hairpin from a BCNM. They no longer drop from the NM. So that would make the Emperor's less common than before, since the new rare/ex version (that drops from the NM) cannot be bought/sold (needless to say the drop rate absolutely sucks)....which would result in the Emperor's hairpin cost going up, rather than down.

[nanatsu]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Hrm I stand corrected. you actually have several options for a couple extra points of acc for mnk at low levels. Not that it would make any difference for me, but if you need it to kill a dc mob I guess it's there for you...

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Right, it has nothing to do with the value or supply of the item. There's more emperor hairpin supply now that there's 2 ways for them to drop, and yet the price increased.

Things are slightly more complicated than what they taught you in high school economics.

Two ways, with one of them being a level 30 capped BCNM against 9 mobs that already have a resistance to Lullaby (and Sleepga is lvl 31). I commonly hear people wanting to do Under Observation for a shot at Peacock Charm, or Petrifying Pair for a shot at Leaping Boots. I've even seen some LS members attempt Divine Punishers for a shot at Fuma Kyana and Ochiudo Kote. But I don't remember the last time I saw anyone try to put together a run for Dropping Like Flies (which is the BCNM that drops Emperor Hairpin).

Technically, there are 3 ways to get Emperor Hairpin and it's clone, the Empress Hairpin. In Nyzul Isle, a ??? item might appraise to an Empress Hairpin. However, the only way for more Emperor Hairpins to enter circulation is through Dropping Like Flies.

Keep in mind that while identical in stats, Emperor Hairpin and Empress Hairpin may differ in value to someone simply because of the Ex status on one. I can sell my Emperor Hairpin if I decided one day that I'm done with it. Or I could move it to one of my mules in order to free up inventory space. I can't do either with an Empress Hairpin. So in my mind, Emperor Hairpin is more valuable to me than an Empress Hairpin.

[ishio]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

nanatsu: Yea. You're talking about the cesti, right? Those can't be bought in Bastok from an NPC, but theres some in the AH right now. A +1 version, too. Could've obtained them in the past at level 5, can't obtain them in the present. Thats the point of my rant. The economy is not as noob friendly today than it was all those years ago.

As far as I know, you can only obtain an Emperor's Hairpin from a BCNM. They no longer drop from the NM. So that would make the Emperor's less common than before, since the new rare/ex version (that drops from the NM) cannot be bought/sold (needless to say the drop rate absolutely sucks)....which would result in the Emperor's hairpin cost going up, rather than down.

So why did Ochiudo's Kote go down? Is the drop rate on the rare/ex version much higher than the hairpin?

[nanatsu]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Eh... well my point was that you don't need those items... you're pointing the blame in the wrong direction. The current state of the economy didn't have anything to do with your level 5 mnk dying. Getting +1 gear probably wouldn't have made any difference. A couple of points of defense, slightly more accurate yet slower attacks... I just don't see how that would've helped. If you were to buy that stuff now and then win that fight, I still wouldn't say it helped. You should've been able to do so without the extra toys and if you died, you were unlucky or overlooked a check somehow. To be honest, I do quite well the way things are now and so do a lot of other people. Leveling from 1-10 was no difficult task in terms of gil or time. Overall I'm happy about things.

[Truece]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

So why did Ochiudo's Kote go down? Is the drop rate on the rare/ex version much higher than the hairpin?

Perhaps it's an issue related to saturation? O.Kote are usable by only 3 jobs: MNK/SAM/NIN, while Emperor(ess) Hairpin is usable by many, ie more people want hairpin?

[Iarendiel]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Perhaps it's an issue related to saturation? O.Kote are usable by only 3 jobs: MNK/SAM/NIN, while Emperor(ess) Hairpin is usable by many, ie more people want hairpin?

Yes.

[ishio]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Eh... well my point was that you don't need those items... you're pointing the blame in the wrong direction. The current state of the economy didn't have anything to do with your level 5 mnk dying. Getting +1 gear probably wouldn't have made any difference. A couple of points of defense, slightly more accurate yet slower attacks... I just don't see how that would've helped. If you were to buy that stuff now and then win that fight, I still wouldn't say it helped. You should've been able to do so without the extra toys and if you died, you were unlucky or overlooked a check somehow. To be honest, I do quite well the way things are now and so do a lot of other people. Leveling from 1-10 was no difficult task in terms of gil or time. Overall I'm happy about things.

I may not need those items, but back then, I had the option to obtain them. I had the choice to make it easier. No such option now.

I know you know a SJ only adds a couple points of attack, defense, and accuracy at those levels. I know you know the combined effects of multiple +1 items at those levels exceeds what a SJ would give. So why did you assume that it was just my SJ(and not the combined effect of both) that made the difference in allowing my SAM to take on tough con?(and 2-handers back then were worse than MNK h2h, even at noob levels).

Perhaps it's an issue related to saturation? O.Kote are usable by only 3 jobs: MNK/SAM/NIN, while Emperor(ess) Hairpin is usable by many, ie more people want hairpin?

Maybe my knowledge of what classes used the EH is outdated, but why would someone that isn't a NIN/THF/RNG(and COR now I think) use it?
Sure, everyone can wear the EH, but that doesn't mean everyone should wear it.... right?

[Taskmage]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Melee jobs don't get anything better than dex+3 in the head slot until the early 40s.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

I was expecting a little logic in the economy after I came back. But this makes no sense at all.

Speaking of logic, S-E seemed to have anticipated the possibility of deflation since the beginning, and set floors to economy to prevent prices from falling too far.

How do I know? Let's just say I more than half of my Gil income is no longer from the AH.

Oh, and expecting everything to decline equally in price is silly; BBQ already explained that the supply of many types of crystals have increased dramatically--of course that means the relative value of crystals compared to other items would fall, and fall dramatically. To be otherwise would indicate an irrational, illogical market.

* * *

The amount of Gil a newbie needs is not high; you should be able to finance NQ gears up to Lv.30 from just leveling all six starter jobs to 10 and selling the drops. If not, a few hours of farming Beeswax here and there, hunting saplings for seeds for Gardening, etc. should more than fill the gap.

Heck, even crafting can make a newbie some Gil; Grilled Hare be made by total beginner (with some breaks), and be used to level Cooking to Lv.6 or so. You can even get Hare Meat and Fire Crystals for free from whacking critters in starter zones, and Dried Marjoram is only ~50 gil from NPC. Grilled Hare typically sell for 500-800 Gil on AH on my server, I think. (Or you can use it yourself when you level jobs in the 1-10 range, to kill things faster.)

[Karinya]

Re: A Rant: Past Player In the Present Economy

Silk and beehive chips haven't moved an inch since I started playing 3-4 years ago (except during the RMT bubble). Ditto goblin equipment (and goblins also drop gil directly, one of the non-AH-based, non-deflatable gil sources Itaz is hinting at). Ditto quadav backplate, since you mentioned Bastok.

Some low-level drops have quite respectable NPC prices; scroll of Sneak is a prime example. Amethyst Quadavs as low as level 3 can drop it (in addition to their guaranteed gil drop and a chance of Quadav Backplate, as well as some less valuable scrolls) and it NPCs for 500.

Saplings are also abundant in Gustaberg; you can sell the seeds for a decent price, or garden with them yourself. Rice is way *up* in value compared to years ago, because of its use in sushi; grain seeds have also gained value accordingly. According to ffxiclopedia both types of worms in gustaberg (even the level -1 tunnel worms!) can drop zinc, which you can either use for the quest yourself, or sell to players who will.


I think SE did set deflation guards on the economy - but it hasn't hit most of them yet. In general it's not worth your while trying to open coffers for gil, for example; you either open them for items or don't bother because farming items for AH is a better return. Deflation could change that, but when it does, new gil will enter the economy. Some quest turn-in items AH for more than the quest value (did you know silk is a quest item? It's never in my knowledge been worthwhile to do the quest compared to just selling the silk to crafters, but if there's another factor of 10 or so deflation, it would be) so those quests don't get done and don't introduce gil.

The fact that deflation-proof money making methods (beastmen, coffers, npc selling, cash quests etc.) introduce new gil into the economy make them an automatic boost to the gil supply whenever it becomes low enough to make those methods viable compared to farming items for sale. Which it hasn't yet.