The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[Brielle]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Thanks to both Gobo and Lunaryn for posting that information, the argument that evolving from that topic was getting a little out of hand.

Since I am returning to FFXI after years of not playing, could someone explain to me what you can do to lose enmity? I know that dragoons can jump, but do the other classes have any abilities that reduce or even eliminate threat? From what I have been reading, you need to run away until the tank can pull the monster off of you. Perhaps I was just reading a very basic explanation.

[dirtyclown]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Since I am returning to FFXI after years of not playing, could someone explain to me what you can do to lose enmity? I know that dragoons can jump, but do the other classes have any abilities that reduce or even eliminate threat? From what I have been reading, you need to run away until the tank can pull the monster off of you. Perhaps I was just reading a very basic explanation.

Not doing anything to anger the mob works, but usually your tank will be doing something to prevent mobs from eating you. Running away only aggravates things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

From the healer's perspective, to avoid getting hate, you don't get into the habit of overcuring. Some WHMs and RDMs have an extremely bad habit exclusively using the highest tier of Cure they've learned and seldom turn to the Regens to conserve MP. Most of the time, its better to stick with tier II and III cures instead of going right for Cure IV and V in every situation.

When you're a melee, the best thing to do is play it moderate and actually watch your damage outpot, but if you take hate, stand right where you are and accept it. Taking damage and losing utsusemi shadows actually reduces the hate you have. Sure, you might die for taking damage, but running around or expecting someone to drop a high tier cure on you isn't helping the situation, either. That aside, if you can push the envelope and are 99.9% sure the mob will die soon for your impulse to do higher damage, do so, but make sure its near the end of a fight, not at the start.

[dirtyclown]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

There's also a vastly overlooked job ability called Cover. Running behind the Paladin instead of standing there like an idiot spamming /p with OH GOD, IT BURNS is a good idea most of the time.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[The ammo-swapping thing] was already corrected several pages back by another user,

Re Armando: Ammo-swaps aren't penalized.

Yellow Mage doesn't want to accept that the game evolves past his present level. Where he is, gear swaps are less of a necessity, and yet a lot of us here, in the 50+ game especially, gear swaps are a way of life. I can't hit one macro on any job without something getting chenged. So pardon the rest of us if our intelligence isn't just a little insulted when one person criticizes the effective tactics of other players just because he's not where they are yet.

Okay, I'll bite.

"You're just a noob because he isn't at our levels of awesomeness yet, where you absolutely MUST gear-swap, or else you'll be gimp. Don't hate us just because we're better than you!"

Seriously, I'm getting tired of the same old song of ad hominem. I never said gear swapping wasn't effective; that was never the point. My problem really stems from the fact that it's too effective. And you've done nothing to defend it's place in this game other than essentially "everybody else does it" and "it's the most efficient way of doing things."

Heck, I didn't (and still don't) even want to continue this particular line of discussion, anyway. Personal attacks, though, count as "something really stupid" in regards to what I said earlier.

[Prons]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I know this is going to sound reallly superficial, but I've pretty much always done backline jobs. So now that I can hear the battle music really adds to the fun and experience of the game for me. It also helps get me pumped for the battle.

It took like five years and it was worth it.

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I agree with you YM and I am in the upper echelon as BBQ puts it that does need to gear swap. I find it absolutley rediculous to be perfectley honest.

I can cast Paralyze with 320 enfeebling skill, and 113 MND and 2 seconds later cast Blind with 320 Enfeebling skill and 116 INT. Then I can swap to my +32 DEX and ACC WS setup to lay down a 700+ DMG evisceration. Then put on my 1000/1000 convert set rebuff. And do it all again. Kinda ridiculous if you ask me. I would think that some kind of penalty would be nice maybe a 10-20 second period where you can't switch gears.

[Sevv]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Also the two new Thf JA's Accomplice and Collaborator remove hate from a target and transfer it to the thf, unlike how cover just shields someone with hate.

Gear swaps are a smart way to play the game, a staple for anyone in endgame. The penalties in PVE while annoying were placed to level the playing field for the casting on a target.

[Vyuru]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Yet you said nothing of like Thf would do something similar as, steal hate, hide if possible

Well, for one thing, I always forget that Thf has Hide. Since it's a job ability that seems to work as intended, I really have no issue with this. Also, just read up a bit more on Hide, that's kinda cool about how it works with monsters that track by sight/scent/sound. I knew about streams erasing scent, but I didn't know that rain would do the same.

It's pretty stupid in some ways, yes, but if you couldn't do that, Hecatomb would be useless, and they'd have to redo the stats on it. As it is now, the Slow there isn't meant to serve as a penalty for its awesome power, it's there to make it absolutely useless except for WS.

I'd much rather they redo it, remove the slow effect and make it actually usable. Why should Hecatomb be restricted to being a WS set while Ares's is not?

And thanks to Lunaryn and Gobo, I was unaware that that is how the hate system worked. I thought that it was the case that hate was set to zero on logout/zone.

I mean, let's look at exterior issue to Itaz and Feba's desire for JP text characters in the NA client, wouldn't that also include one person having to go out and make the additional purchase of a keyboard that helps them do so?

If you watch some of the japanese videos where they type, you can see where they type something in, then tab through several different translations of the thing, something like from kanji > hiragana > katakana > english. So I don't think buying a new keyboard would be needed.

Also, at the time that I got this game I was fairly proficient in japanese and I wanted to use this game as a means of furthering my understanding of and practicing my japanese. Writing japanese in english characters just wasn't the same, and alot of japanese players seemed to have problems with it and didn't understand what I was saying.

I think the whole gun delay thing might be in reference to older guns and how long it took to fire them.

It might be a bit of a pet peeve thing of mine, but if that was their reasoning then SE should have based the models off of the appropriate black powder guns. There are plenty of attractive old black powder rifles and pistols, oh god, don't get me started on the beauty of black powder pistols, that SE could have modeled the game rifles after.

Also, something that would have been interesting for the game would have been to start off with the technology at a fairly low level, then gradually increase it as the game progressed. It would have been a nice way to provide constant boosts to the crafting industry while possibly drawing the players more into the game. You'd have to be a bit carefull with the balancing act though, to keep everything on an even keel. But even so I can think of a few ways that they might have done that, whether or not it would have worked is another issue though

At any rate, guns have thier place here and there in the game, much to the chagrin of those that would argue guns don't have a place in a fantasy setting at all.

I don't mind technology in a fantasy setting, heck, I would like to see a bit more experimentation on the developers part on how magic and technology could coexist. But it is a bit vexing when you see something like the Coffinmaker, which looks like a pump action rifle, and not see a lower delay.

but do the other classes have any abilities that reduce or even eliminate threat?

Thf can plant hate onto someone with Trick Attack. Pup and Bst can transfer hate over to their puppet/pet. I think Thf also got a meritable steal enmity ability but I'm not sure on that.

From what I have been reading, you need to run away until the tank can pull the monster off of you.

Hitting on this one since I saw it alot while leveling Blu through the jungles.

Never ever ever run away when the monster is beating on you. The melee will not be able to hit the monster because it is out of range, you might drag it out of range for provoke or other hate grabbing abilities. Worse yet you may get aggro/links while running around.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Since I am returning to FFXI after years of not playing, could someone explain to me what you can do to lose enmity? I know that dragoons can jump, but do the other classes have any abilities that reduce or even eliminate threat? From what I have been reading, you need to run away until the tank can pull the monster off of you. Perhaps I was just reading a very basic explanation.

For the most part, healers:
1) Slow down enmity accumulation: use of enmity- gear, and avoid unnecessary direct curing by using Regen. For WHM, there's also Cure V, which has a set enmity (much less than a full Cure IV).
2) Rely on tanks (possibly with help from THFs or DD/THF's) to generate enmity faster than healers can accumulate.
3) Hope the party/alliance can kill the target before the monster decides the healer looks like the better chew toy.

With the recent update to THF, there's also the option of having a THF in party use Accomplice and Colaborator to directly reduce the enmity already accumulated by a healer. (Also, I've read some WHMs resort to /DRG for High Jump in the past, though I've never witness it myself.)

WHMs have some interesting options. There's the Cure V already mentioned, but also Flash--a double edged sword. With enmity- gear, a correctly used Flash will prevent monster from hitting a tank for a few times without generating too much enmity. (It's still a spike, but a smaller one, and most of that should fade away soon.) By not getting hit as much, a tank loses less enmity, and thus able to maintain a higher threshold.

Then, there's Regen II (which is shared with SCH) and Regen III (WHM's alone), giving WHM the ability to do a lot of curing over time without accruing large amount of enmity as directly curing would have.

All healers, though, can reduce the need to cure and thus lower the enmity accumulation rate by promptly removing negative status effects on party members. A few seconds of Bio III makes a huge difference, for example; a prompt erase can be followed by a leisurely Regen II/III, but a slow reaction time may necessitate an emergency Cure V (or worse, a Cure IV for SCH and RDM), an erase, and a Regen.

* * *

Edit: Not sure why I'm explain it from a healer's perspective. >_>; Don't mind me--I just need more coffee...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

SCH doesn't really need to ever do Cure IV unless its absolutely needed, we can boost Cure III with Rapture (level 55 ability) if we really need to and, really, that's somtimes more effective than tossing out a Cure IV or V anyway.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I'll shoot Feba's ideas down because he's so tremendously out-of-touch with the game its not even funny.

Go on, BBQ.

Explain how, exactly, gear swapping and typing in Japanese have FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED in the time I've been gone. Yes, I know that gear swaps are important in gameplay as it is now-- I used them plenty myself as a BLM. That doesn't mean I agree with them, and that doesn't mean that removing them can't be an improvement on mechanics.

wouldn't that also include one person having to go out and make the additional purchase of a keyboard that helps them do so?

No, it would not. You can type Japanese on a QWERTY just fine.

If you want to discuss PvP in FFXI, then ya got to talk about the PvP we have, not the PvP you want. Get it?

alright. Let's apply BBQ logic to the OP.

If you want to discuss guilds in FFXI, you have to talk about the guilds we have, not the guilds you want. Get it?

If you want to discuss updates in FFXI, you have to talk about the updates we get, not the updates you want. Get it?

If you want to talk about campaign, you have to talk about the campaign we have, not the campaign you want. Get it?


Do you get it, BBQ? Your statements only serve to make you look like a douche, and much stupider than I know you actually are. You're trying to win an argument with them, but that's just not going to work. You've been asked to explain numerous times why these things are problems, and the only argument you can come up with is "I don't want that, thus everyone who does must be an idiot."

Deuling - people just want that for the sake of having it.

Again, the same logic can be applied to your above wishes. You do not get to decide what is an 'issue' with FFXI or not based on how much you'd like it. I'd say that NA players being unable to effectively communicate in Japanese, regardless of whether they know the language or not, is a pretty important issue. I'd also say that the extremes of gear swapping is a big issue, and the fact that you bother disagreeing is proof of this (whether you agree with me or not, everyone agrees that allowing or disallowing gear swapping is an incredibly important decision). And yes, the inability for people to have PVP fights that are purely about fighting, and not some sport (not that I dislike Ballista or Brenner; Brenner was one of my favorite activities for quite a while, it's just not dueling) is obviously important to them.


Quite honestly, BBQ, you don't understand the issues, and are rejecting them purely because you don't like the sound of them. Next time, you should ask people about their ideas, that way you can gear a better idea of what they're talking about; That tends to work out far better than just going "NO U" and hoping someone listens.

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

don't believe i am doing this but thanks feba

[Kailea]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

holy crap.... *clears throat* I a-agree with F-Feba ........ *falls over*

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

I guess hell is frozen over Warcraft player carrying olympic torch and feba getting 2 thumbs up for the same post.