The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Saying "well, you can change gloves quickly, but not boots, and maybe your belt, but not your chest armor" is arbitrary. Arguing "realism" in a game where you can teleport long distances, fight the gods, leap into the air to lesson mob enmity, etc. is pretty stupid. It's painting yourself into a hypothetical corner that you can't get out of. I know you'll disagree and profess to be right, because that's what you do, but it doesn't make it any more true.

So, either change it so that nothing can be swapped in-combat, or leave it where everything can be. Otherwise? Arbitrary.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Saying "well, you can change gloves quickly, but not boots, and maybe your belt, but not your chest armor" is arbitrary.

No, it isn't. Assigning a different time to each slot is a logical (and more interesting) gameplay mechanic, as it IS easy to change some pieces of clothing quicker than others. It makes gear swapping more intricate than just "wait for this timer to countdown, and do it again"; it's like the difference between a BLM using nukes and an RDM balancing buffs and debuffs.

Arguing "realism" in a game where you can...

There are two giant flaws with this. First of all, it assumes that the ONLY benefit to such a system is realism. Like I said, there is a VERY clear gameplay benefit to it as well. Secondly, all of your examples are FANTASTICAL things. Changing clothes/armor is mundane. Unless you're using a magic spell to change (such as as Lamia Strip; which I'll also say is an absolutely pointless move with current gear swapping mechanics), there's nothing amazing about it. Fighting gods, teleportation? Yes, very much so.

It's painting yourself into a hypothetical corner

Really, Murphie, do you ever try to win arguments, or do you just go "Statement. Ha, I win! No, doesn't matter if there's anything wrong with my statement, I said I win, so I win."? Because, quite honestly, I can't remember you ever seriously arguing a point without resorting to that within a few posts.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Introducing time lag into into equipment swapping would introduce additional game play considerations--that much is true.

That doesn't mean the existing system we have is mindlessly simple. Inventory slots are still limited--every time I go into a big fight, I have to carefully consider if I should bring one more piece of some situational gear I may need, or save room for medicine. That's not even getting into the details of which combination meds and which combination of gears.

And, for those who only uses FFXI's built-in macros and not Windower's "Swap 16 slots, pad with delay, cast spell, insert buffer delay, macro back to standing set" macro system, we have to consider how pressing multiple macros slow down our reactions, and spreading macros across too many pallets can delay us even more.

On that note, Windower seriously take out the challenges of macro'ing--now that really dumbs things down, and turns players into little more than human bots who press buttons "Easy1", "Easy2", "Easy3", etc.

* * *

I can't be the only person who finds the challenge of building macro sets to maximize performance enjoyable, right? Every new piece of gear I get makes me go, "ooooo.... Which macros should I change for this? Do I need to rearrange the layout?"

I can't imagine FFXI with out macro gear switching. Heck, I don't even want to imagine it.

Some of my macros even contain names for gears I won't be able to get until months (if not years) from now.

* * *

Adding a new game mechanism also can introduce emergent properties--you'd be better pretty darn sure those properties which emerge are the players would enjoy. Making a slot swap take a minute would completely destroy the value of of WS gears people spent ages to obtain--don't think most people enjoy fits of rage and cussing from finding out the stuff they spent month--or years--to lay their virtual hands on are good for mannequin display only.

People don't want that. S-E doesn't want to that. And, you wouldn't want players to track you down and lynch you--so you don't want that, either.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Inventory slots are still limited

Technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied extra space because of PS2) should not be an overwhelming source of difficulty in the game. That's extremely poor design.

On that note, Windower seriously take out the challenges of macro'ing--

Uh, what? Windower Macros are significantly more complicated-- and capable. They are a superior system, not an easier one. Again, technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied giving players more macro lines or a better macro system because of PS2) should not be a source of difficulty, for any game.

Making a slot swap take a minute would completely destroy the value of of WS gears people spent ages to obtain--

Exactly. That's a sad consequence-- but it also encourages SE to make those things (like hectacomb) either worth considering for a permanent slot, or useful for something else.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied extra space because of PS2) should not be an overwhelming source of difficulty in the game. That's extremely poor design.

No, it isn't necessarily so. Chessboards certainly isn't high tech, and its low tech nature places some pretty severe design constraints.

Plus, inventory slot limit isn't an overwhelming source of difficulty in battle situations; calling it that is an overwhelming exaggeration, though.

Where item inventory and storage truly aggravating is the storage of Rare/Ex items. Long time players tend to accumulate heck of whole of gears they don't always use but cannot toss because they need them for other jobs and situations. Some, like Artifacts and Relic gear sets, can be stored at NPC--if one has the complete set. Many, however, cannot be stored at NPC at all, even if one is willing and able to complete an entire set. (Ex: Assault, Salvage, and Abjuration sets.)

But, that's an often cried about issue--same for macro line limits, really--and do not belong in this thread.

Uh, what? Windower Macros are significantly more complicated-- and capable. They are a superior system, not an easier one.

Not that much more complicated, but heck of whole lot more capable due to lack of length limit.

Superior? If a FPS game has a bot scripting system capable of letting anyone capable of logical thinking make bots--bots more capable than human at navigating to weapon/ammo spawn points, targeting, and shotting accurately--would you call that superior system?

In a sense, it's superior. But, fun to play against? I'll pass.

Again, technical limitations (read: every time SE has denied giving players more macro lines or a better macro system because of PS2) should not be a source of difficulty, for any game.

You see the cup half empty, I see it as half full.

There will always be technical limitations--how to use those limitations (how to allocate and budget the limited memeory of PS2 in this case) is just as important as how to use the technical capabilities a platform has. Maybe even more important.

Going to guess that your real complaint is that S-E won't move its customers off of PS2. Smart money says a company should do all it can to stay with its customers; when FFXI players abandon PS2, S-E will go right with them, and not a second before that.

Exactly. That's a sad consequence-- but it also encourages SE to make those things (like hectacomb) either worth considering for a permanent slot, or useful for something else.

Make obsolete difficult to obtain items is dumb move, and reworking those items is a dumb wasting of dev hours.

It's obvious the game was designed with gear swapping in mind or it was a game play which emerged pretty early on--abandoning that and force "perma" or "semi-perma" gear on the entire game would be an exercise in absurdity after years of adding gears intended for swapping to the game.

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Chessboards certainly isn't high tech, and its low tech nature places some pretty severe design constraints.

Which isn't what I said. I did not say low tech is bad, I said that technical limitations should not be a source of difficulty. For example, Super Mario World is a great game, what it could do was limited by the hardware of the time, but the player was not challenged from some hardware problem the developers couldn't compensate for. What I'm saying would be like if, due to poor manufacturing facilities, you could only make one shape of chess piece, and you had to remember which ones did what role and who's team they were on. I think we can both agree that would be a poor implementation of chess.

Not that much more complicated,

Spoken like someone who hasn't really used it. It can do some very complicated things, even if most people use it to just add infinite lines.

If a FPS game has a bot scripting system capable of letting anyone capable of logical thinking make bots--bots more capable than human at navigating to weapon/ammo spawn points, targeting, and shotting accurately--would you call that superior system?

If FFXI was based on reflexes instead of strategic thinking, you might have a point. If I was advocating bots and not scripts, you might have a point. We're talking Apples and Spaghetti here, though.

As it is, the FFXI macro system is a technical hurdle to the player; instead of helping the player as it should. Allowing people to have more complex macros isn't going to make them perfect, it's not going to let your RDM go make a sammich while you're leveling, it's not going to do anything but make their interface more organized and less of a hassle. I'll say on this the same I said on customizable UIs: do you honestly think that if you went up against another player who was using them in some form of competition, they would be better because of the tool, where you would fail? If you can honestly say that someone else having a half decent macro system is going to make the game harder on you, firstly, Windower already did that, and you're still here; secondly, you're just an awful player to begin with. Tools make the game better-- not players worse.

There will always be technical limitations--how to use those limitations (how to allocate and budget the limited memeory of PS2 in this case) is just as important as how to use the technical capabilities a platform has.

Agreed. Learning how to push the limits is very important. However, MAKING THE GAME HARDER OR WORSE because of those limits is a very, very bad idea. That is what making the challenge in equipment "who can hold the most" instead of "who can plan ahead the best" does.

Going to guess that your real complaint is that S-E won't move its customers off of PS2.

Absolutely not. There is a very large portion of people playing on PS2. My real complaint is that SE won't move beyond the PS2. It's perfectly possible for them to make improvements to other clients (like customizable UIs, improved Macros, seamless zoning, improved graphics, etc.) without dumping the PS2 client. Look at http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...but-won-t.html , it might refresh your memory.

it was a game play which emerged pretty early on-

This, obviously if gear swapping was intended to be a major mechanic they would've added a way to swap more than one per line (for macros sake), and likely would've devoted more memory space to gobbie bag.

Again, I realize that it would be a huge change to the game, and I don't think it's something that 'desperately' needs to be done, I'm just saying that it's one of FFXI's flaws.

FFXI, overall, is a great product. When I critique it, it's almost always because it could be better (and because I care about it, and want it to be better), not because there's something horrible ruining the game and making it unfun.

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Actually it would be more logical to just leave it as is and work on a better system for it's future online consideration. The big bonus that FFXI has over other MMO's is its vast platform capability. I don't know of any other game that can be played across 4 different platforms in the same locale. (PC/PS2/X360/PS3).

This makes changing one thing hard to do because in a sense the game will need to remain the same for all these systems that use it. Changing one thing on PC will mean they would have to rewrite something from PS2 or remove it entirely. They will then have to support 2 games instead of one.

Its almost like making an expansion available to only PC players, then not giving the access at all to PS2 players.

I find the macro system to be very well put together. I have yet to have any problems with it. To be honest FFXI is a rare gem in the online world, it offers imo the best of what it means to be a MMO. While we can nit pick at little things like PVP and Macros, the most devastating thing in this game right now is the Job and Party imbalances. (Ill leave it at that since I don't want to push into the realm of normally talked about things.)

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Its almost like making an expansion available to only PC players, then not giving the access at all to PS2 players.

No, it's not.

Read http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/vid...but-won-t.html

[MrMageo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

LOL PS2 can't handle a graphical update, hell mine can barely run it smoothly as is. SE is going to make a decision soon if this game is going to last any longer.

1. Revamp game re-release for xbox360/PC/PS3 dump PS2

PS2 is really holding back the potential graphic power of this game, XBOX360/PS3 support High Def (im not big on computers so I dont know about them I would imagine so though.) If you wanted to get super techy about it we could see graphics on par with CGI from FF12 via the PS3 for sure.

But this probably won't happen because FFXI is virtually on life support. This will most likely be the final 2 years of service, and its not financially viable to provide such a large update if there is no plan to keep this around (another MMO has been in planing for 1-2 years now).

2. They offer a gigantic softeware update supporting 2 seperate graphic options again pushing aside the PS2. Offer a High Def service to boost the graphics. Offer an expansion to other areas of the game.

This route would be more of a waste of resources than the previous one. To be honest I think SE is proviing its last hurrah this year with its expansion and job updates. We will be looking at service for beta (SEMMO#2) in japan in the fall-winter of 09.

It is SE's chance to set the bar for MMO's instead of trying to play catchup, and SE has never been one to play catch up in the world of RPG's and I don't see them bowing to WoW any longer

[Feba]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

This route would be more of a waste of resources than the previous one.

Sometimes, I wonder if you read, or just look at words.

[Akashimo]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Sometimes, I wonder if you read, or just look at words.

That could apply to a bunch of us here

[Ziero]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

But this probably won't happen because FFXI is virtually on life support. This will most likely be the final 2 years of service, and its not financially viable to provide such a large update if there is no plan to keep this around (another MMO has been in planing for 1-2 years now).

...what? No. Stop spouting crap you have no idea what you're talking about. FFXI is one of the biggest, strongest, healthiest MMOs out there today. Falling only behind WoW, which dwarfs every other MMO evar in subscriptions, and Lineage(iirc) which has a mainly Korean Player base. Hell, it was just last week that they announced they had half a million accounts and that one of the 30+ servers was too crowded to allow any more people to join it. This isn't life support, this is thriving.

As for gear swaps, leave them the hell alone. They're not detrimental to *anything*(outside of pvp which will be explained in a minute) in this game and they're not just a tool of the "elitest" or such. It's a combat tactic used by those who want to excel at the game in any given situation. It's something players have to put thought into and work towards (through obtaining their gear and mixing/matching to get the best results) that lets them stand out from players who *don't* want to put in the extra effort. And with so many abilities and actions that are effected by certain stats, it would be an absolute waste to not allow players to switch gear.

As a thf, I switch out *every*(barring weapons) single piece of gear every 30 seconds when things are going right. It keeps me busy as I'm maximizing my potential and increasing my effectiveness. My inventory isn't limiting me in any way during combat (storage during fights isn't the main problem with inventory spacing) and the current Macro system doesn't hinder me at all. Hell, at most, for any given action, I need to press two buttons to change every single piece of non-weapon gear I have. Oh the horror.

But to take away my ability to equip my dex/agi gear for SaTa, then change to my Acc gear when the mob has high eva, then go to haste gear when that Eva is dropped, then go to Eva gear when I'm pulling, would hinder my job a *hell* of a lot more then it would help it. The only people you'd be helping by removing or penalizing people for gear swapping are the people who already don't do it.

As for why you can't do it in PvP, well you ever try to cast cure on a thf going into their SaTa gear? Now try casting offensive spells on someone who's constantly changing their equipment. You'll notice it just doesn't work. If you could gear swap in PvP, it would *destroy* all mages, including Rdm, because they wouldn't get any spells off. In PvP, SE is making you think about your gear, in both offensive and defensive stats, so you'll have to settle on the 'best' all around gear with no min/maxing, leaving PvP up to player's skill, not their gear.

So if you don't want to gear swap, don't. But don't be upset when the person who does outperforms you. SE shouldn't have to penalize the good to appease the bad.

[Murphie]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

No, it isn't. Assigning a different time to each slot is a logical (and more interesting) gameplay mechanic, as it IS easy to change some pieces of clothing quicker than others. It makes gear swapping more intricate than just "wait for this timer to countdown, and do it again"; it's like the difference between a BLM using nukes and an RDM balancing buffs and debuffs.


There are two giant flaws with this. First of all, it assumes that the ONLY benefit to such a system is realism. Like I said, there is a VERY clear gameplay benefit to it as well. Secondly, all of your examples are FANTASTICAL things. Changing clothes/armor is mundane. Unless you're using a magic spell to change (such as as Lamia Strip; which I'll also say is an absolutely pointless move with current gear swapping mechanics), there's nothing amazing about it. Fighting gods, teleportation? Yes, very much so.



Really, Murphie, do you ever try to win arguments, or do you just go "Statement. Ha, I win! No, doesn't matter if there's anything wrong with my statement, I said I win, so I win."? Because, quite honestly, I can't remember you ever seriously arguing a point without resorting to that within a few posts.

Whatever makes you feel better, Feba. Have fun being right.

[Kailea]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

there is a bigger problem then graphics, even if the graphics where updated for PC/PS3/360. One thing needs to be fixed first, the game needs to be recoded to run off the CPU/GPU instead of being heavy on CPU usage. It would make the game run alot better on PS3/360/PC

[Armando]

Re: The issues with FFXI that we don't often discuss

Regarding the FFXI macro system vs Windower system: in my opinion, the real culprit is the unresponsive UI. Being restricted to 6 lines per macro wouldn't be an issue if I could fire off macros as quickly as I can press keys. We have so much macro space that you could afford to have 5 macros of equip swaps for a single task, especially since you can set up "shortcut" macros to take you to a different macro pallette/set and back. But pressing 5 gear macros, the macro for the action you want, and 5 other gear macros to return to your normal gear set would easily take you 3 seconds or more.