What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

[Feba]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

think a fleet of DS9's against a shuttle in Star Trek

Can't you just modulate the harmonic shield variance?

[Klumps]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

XML interface is long overdue. About seven years overdue, in fact. The first XML interface was in EQ in 2001, followed shortly by DAoC. It's completely unreasonable of SE not to have a customizable interface for PC and X360 users. PS2 may not be able to handle it...so what? Let users fix the absolutely mind-numbingly horrible macro system, and redo screen overlays for their own chatboxes (damage and chat in different windows, for one!) You can also do customizable quest list, inventory, etc...

If, in response to the above, all you can say is "It's fine the way it is," please save yourself the Calories you'd expend posting. You are, quite simply, inexperienced in MMOs or just plain naive if you think FFXI's UI is "fine." It is by FAR the worst UI of any MMO of FFXI's generation (UO, Lineage, EQ, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AO...probably missed a few).

I think the gameplay is great, leveling curve (on the whole) is fine, balancing is absolutely fantastic considering how many jobs there are and that all of them can find a niche (well...poor pups, but I digress). The UI was bad from the moment the game was released on PC, though, and the fact that SE refuses to address this just confuses me. It might have been a valid argument back in 2002 that they didn't think it was fair to introduce an improved UI that would only be available to PC players...these days you can buy a PC capable of playing FFXI for $300 (or a 360, for that matter). If you're still playing it on PS2...well, sorry. No one's playing EQ1 on a P150 with 32 MB RAM and a Voodoo1 anymore, and the fact that SE has tailored FFXI to the lowest common denominator is just asinine.

[Nuriko]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

XI is a totally different monster to SWG or LotRO. From the ground up they're almost completely fundamentally different, save for the fact that they have levels for you to gain. XD

SWG didn't start off with an actual number you could point at and say "this is my level" though ... and I thought it was better when it was that way. I always liked the crafting system until they totally replaced the MMORPG with a MMOFPS...

[Jaelachan]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

XML interface is long overdue. About seven years overdue, in fact. The first XML interface was in EQ in 2001, followed shortly by DAoC. It's completely unreasonable of SE not to have a customizable interface for PC and X360 users. PS2 may not be able to handle it...so what? Let users fix the absolutely mind-numbingly horrible macro system, and redo screen overlays for their own chatboxes (damage and chat in different windows, for one!) You can also do customizable quest list, inventory, etc...

If, in response to the above, all you can say is "It's fine the way it is," please save yourself the Calories you'd expend posting. You are, quite simply, inexperienced in MMOs or just plain naive if you think FFXI's UI is "fine." It is by FAR the worst UI of any MMO of FFXI's generation (UO, Lineage, EQ, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AO...probably missed a few).

I think the gameplay is great, leveling curve (on the whole) is fine, balancing is absolutely fantastic considering how many jobs there are and that all of them can find a niche (well...poor pups, but I digress). The UI was bad from the moment the game was released on PC, though, and the fact that SE refuses to address this just confuses me. It might have been a valid argument back in 2002 that they didn't think it was fair to introduce an improved UI that would only be available to PC players...these days you can buy a PC capable of playing FFXI for $300 (or a 360, for that matter). If you're still playing it on PS2...well, sorry. No one's playing EQ1 on a P150 with 32 MB RAM and a Voodoo1 anymore, and the fact that SE has tailored FFXI to the lowest common denominator is just asinine.

Probably the main thing that the people at Square Enix is concerned about the most is making sure that any user addons arent modified to give certain players an unfair advantage. (The current reasoning Why SE doesnt condone the use of third party programming)

UI modifications in games like World of Warcraft allow you to see enemy hp, mp, energy, and other things that a player not using the interface couldnt.

Its exactly the same reason why SquareEnix didnt make a windower for FFXI until a few updates ago. They had to make sure that they made one that the users couldnt modify to give them an unfair advantage over other players.

There used to be a program that chinese gilfarmers and NM campers used that allowed them to see the exact spawn times of every NM in the area, so they knew the exact moment and location of where the NM in question would spawn. I saw a few screenshots of it on the web, but the program in question was laid out on an FFXI map with a widescan bar on the left side with times of each monsters spawn detailed to the right of the widescan entries. The widescan instead of displaying Monsters that have already spawned, displayed the monsters that hadnt popped yet. (This was back when Stroper Chyme was monopolized by chinese gilsellers about 4 years ago.)

Anyway, In order for Square Enix to keep the game balanced, no character can use any program or UI to give them an advantage above any other player.

I believe that Square Enix should allow the installation of Addons that they make themselves so that game balance is maintained, but I think that this wont happen unless alot of players submit lots of feedback to them.

[Feba]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

Probably the main thing that the people at Square Enix is concerned about the most is making sure that any user addons arent modified to give certain players an unfair advantage.

Users on 8 year old systems are already pretty much screwed when it comes to things like Dynamis and such anyway. Letting someone move their compass around isn't going to be game breaking.

Its exactly the same reason why SquareEnix didnt make a windower for FFXI until a few updates ago. They had to make sure that they made one that the users couldnt modify

There is just... so, so much wrong with this comment.

SE didn't make a Windower for FFXI because they're lazy bastards. They finally made one because an absurdly large amount of their playerbase was using one they weren't providing, which also happened to come with things that DID significantly alter the game.

There used to be a program that chinese gilfarmers and NM campers used that allowed them to see the exact spawn times of every NM in the area,

While this is a nice story, that has absolutely nothing to do with allowing user modifications. That's either a matter of adding DOT timers (which anyone can do with official SE software), or SE carelessly leaving spawn times in memory. Both of which are an easy fix for SE.

Anyway, In order for Square Enix to keep the game balanced, no character can use any program or UI to give them an advantage above any other player.

Which is the sort of absolutely asinine philosophy that has led to this shit. Anyone with half a brain will admit that people will get an advantage. What are you going to do, force everyone to go back to the PS2 so that nobody has a longer draw distance, and has the same lag in dynamis? Same limit on characters that can be seen nearby? Simply having a more powerful computer gives you an advantage in FFXI.

Someone moving their chatbar around and making their party's HP display isn't going to kill FFXI, it's just going to give them the chance to make their display more attractive to them, maybe a bit more functional, and maybe display a little more info.


If you can find a PS2 player that honestly thinks that a PC player having access to a minimap or easier to read HP bars is going to make it harder on them, I will show you a very very shitty PS2 player. There is no reason to object to UI mods because of the PS2. The closest thing is PS2/360 users complaining they don't get it, and anyone who owns a PS2 set up for FFXI or a 360 can afford a computer that can play FFXI.

[Caspian]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

I'm wondering if they'll have to revisit the cross-platform idea at some point. Whether it be somewhere down the line with ffxi (doubtful) or in the next ff mmo. I definately don't know all the in's and out's of the technology, so I don't know if the cross-platforms and ps2 capabilities excuses that SE always gives are legit or just excuses to not deal with an issue. Though the claim that they had to use mog lockers because PS2 couldn't handle more user inventory and then upping the max to 80 did strike me as odd. I always thought it was pretty cool that there were so many options on how to play ffxi (first ps2 and pc and then adding 360), but it no doubt makes programming and updating more difficult and serves as a halfway reasonable excuse to not change things that they don't care to. Now, PS3 and 360 are obviously more capable technologically so perhaps the cross-platform issue won't be as big of a deal down the line.
Other than that, I completely agree with having a more customizable UI.

A little off-topic, does the SE windower still kill your fps and make your whole computer run incredibly slow? The one time I used it, my fps dropped to a quarter of what it usually runs at and slowed Opera to a crawl.

[Feba]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

Though the claim that they had to use mog lockers because PS2 couldn't handle more user inventory and then upping the max to 80 did strike me as odd.

If I weren't convinced SE's a lot of bumbling fools, I'd chalk it up to them finding some spare memory to squeeze it into.

I believe that Square Enix should allow the installation of Addons that they make themselves so that game balance is maintained,

There would be no point. It's not going to unbalance the game either way, all restricting it to SE does is put additional workload on the programmers with extremely little in return value.

[Ziero]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

It might have been a valid argument back in 2002 that they didn't think it was fair to introduce an improved UI that would only be available to PC players...these days you can buy a PC capable of playing FFXI for $300 (or a 360, for that matter). If you're still playing it on PS2...well, sorry. No one's playing EQ1 on a P150 with 32 MB RAM and a Voodoo1 anymore, and the fact that SE has tailored FFXI to the lowest common denominator is just asinine.

There is no reason to object to UI mods because of the PS2. The closest thing is PS2/360 users complaining they don't get it, and anyone who owns a PS2 set up for FFXI or a 360 can afford a computer that can play FFXI.

First off, let me just say, do either of you know how absolutely ridiculous those comments are? You both do realize that the majority of this game's player base, more then the PC and XBox users combined, play on PS2s right? And that it is still the most used system in Japan? You're basically telling the majority of the gamers to "GTFO and STFU" because you want them to make a prettier user interface? That's a bit egocentric if you ask me.

XML interface is long overdue. About seven years overdue, in fact. The first XML interface was in EQ in 2001, followed shortly by DAoC. It's completely unreasonable of SE not to have a customizable interface for PC and X360 users. PS2 may not be able to handle it...so what? Let users fix the absolutely mind-numbingly horrible macro system, and redo screen overlays for their own chatboxes (damage and chat in different windows, for one!) You can also do customizable quest list, inventory, etc...

This is why the game will not have that type of interface. Because the "lowest common denominator" is also the biggest, by far.

If, in response to the above, all you can say is "It's fine the way it is," please save yourself the Calories you'd expend posting. You are, quite simply, inexperienced in MMOs or just plain naive if you think FFXI's UI is "fine." It is by FAR the worst UI of any MMO of FFXI's generation (UO, Lineage, EQ, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AO...probably missed a few).

It *is* fine the way it is. It gives us all the most valuable information we need to play along with giving us plenty of clear room to see the game with options to filter out and modify things we don't want to see. Of the MMOs I have played, I prefer FFXI's the most.

SE didn't make a Windower for FFXI because they're lazy bastards. They finally made one because an absurdly large amount of their playerbase was using one they weren't providing, which also happened to come with things that DID significantly alter the game.

They didn't make an official windower because they wanted all systems to share the same gaming experience. They've stated that MANY times. And when they did finally add it in, they did so because they discovered a large portion of the PC users, not the entire playerbase, were using an unofficial windower. When they did add the windower, the only major change to the game outside of gameplay was the expansion of the Macro books, which was done more to match up with the 20 current jobs and allow players more freedom with their macros then anything else. So much wrong indeed.

Which is the sort of absolutely asinine philosophy that has led to this shit. Anyone with half a brain will admit that people will get an advantage. What are you going to do, force everyone to go back to the PS2 so that nobody has a longer draw distance, and has the same lag in dynamis? Same limit on characters that can be seen nearby? Simply having a more powerful computer gives you an advantage in FFXI.

From my understanding, PS2s and Xbox aren't that bad on the lag, and the only thing draw distance does is make the game prettier by letting you see more of the environment, but monsters always show up at the same distance. While SE can't make everyone use the same exact hardware, they can do other things to make people have similar gaming experiences. Things such as creating a universal GUI that can be modified a bit in a way, but not overtly changed or customized.

Someone moving their chatbar around and making their party's HP display isn't going to kill FFXI, it's just going to give them the chance to make their display more attractive to them, maybe a bit more functional, and maybe display a little more info.

....what? When exactly is the last time you played?

I'm wondering if they'll have to revisit the cross-platform idea at some point. Whether it be somewhere down the line with ffxi (doubtful) or in the next ff mmo.

Personally, I hope so. Being able to allow so many different users to play on so many different systems was one of the greatest things SE did for this game. If it was PS2 only, it would have never gotten so big in the US, if it was PC only, it never would have survived in japan and if it was Xbox only...it never would have been made.

A little off-topic, does the SE windower still kill your fps and make your whole computer run incredibly slow? The one time I used it, my fps dropped to a quarter of what it usually runs at and slowed Opera to a crawl.

That was fixed days after it was released. I normally run FFXI now in campaign with my Itunes, Teamspeak, AIM, MSN and multiple internet windows up and have little to no slowdown because of it and my com is about as crappy as you can get.

[Feba]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

You both do realize that the majority of this game's player base, more then the PC and XBox users combined, play on PS2s right?

That's nice. That doesn't mean that PC users are asking for too much here. You do realize that PC users already have significant advantages over PS2 players, right? You do realize that anyone that can afford to play FFXI can afford the hilariously low system requirements PC they could then play on, right?

You're basically telling the majority of the gamers to "GTFO and STFU" because you want them to make a prettier user interface?

No. I don't want them to make a prettier UI. I want them to make one that isn't total crap, and let players figure it out for themselves.

It *is* fine the way it is.

You like it. That's fine. Plenty of people don't, however, and compared to other MMOs it's downright embarrassing.

They didn't make an official windower because they wanted all systems to share the same gaming experience. They've stated that MANY times.

And many people have stated many times that the moon landings were faked. Saying the same thing over and over again does not make it true.

And when they did finally add it in, they did so because they discovered

They discovered? More like they finally gave in. Windower had been huge for at least a couple years before SE did anything about it.

they did so because they discovered a large portion of the PC users, not the entire playerbase, were using an unofficial windower.

A large portion of PC users is a large portion of the entire playerbase, numbnuts. 90% of 50% is still 45%.

When they did add the windower, the only major change to the game outside of gameplay was the expansion of the Macro books, which was done more to match up with the 20 current jobs and allow players more freedom with their macros then anything else.

First of all, the Windower and the Macro addition don't have to be linked. Secondly, that is also because FFXI's Macro system is incredibly weak. Adding more slots was the least they could do. As I understand it, you can at least use commands to swap macro bars now, which opens up new possibilities in ease of use, although it's not a significant improvement.

the only thing draw distance does is make the game prettier by letting you see more of the environment,

That still allows one player to see things that another cannot. If I'm lost in the middle of nowhere (Say, Xarcabard or Altepa), and I'm on a client with larger draw distance I have a better chance of finding a way out than someone who does not. It is an advantage. An absurdly small one? Yes. One that won't matter to anyone who's worth their monthly fee? Yes. Just like UI mods.

SE can't make everyone use the same exact hardware,

Sure they can. Why not? Just stop supporting the PC and 360 versions (or if SE really cared about equality, never bother making them in the first place) and make it solely a PS2 affair. Then everyone would be on equal terms.

Things such as creating a universal GUI that can be modified a bit in a way

Saying that FFXI's UI can be modified is like saying you can get a Model T in any color as long as it's black.

...what?

I would apologize for the typo, but given that it's both incredibly obvious if you had read the next sentence, and you're using quote mining for a cheap insult, I won't.

[Ziero]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

That's nice. That doesn't mean that PC users are asking for too much here. You do realize that PC users already have significant advantages over PS2 players, right? You do realize that anyone that can afford to play FFXI can afford the hilariously low system requirements PC they could then play on, right?

No, PC users don't have a significant advantage. Not any more then PS2 or Xbox players have over each other or PC users. SE has done a pretty damn good job of keeping three very different systems as balanced as they can.

And seriously, PCs are not as big in japan as they are here so why in the hell would you expect people who make a *japanese* game to not cater to their larger, japanese playerbase. This whole "they can go out and buy a cheap PC" BS is some of the weakest arguments anyone can make about this game.

No. I don't want them to make a prettier UI. I want them to make one that isn't total crap, and let players figure it out for themselves.

What exactly is crap about it? Please explain it to me because I have never had a problem with it at all in any way shape or form. When I'm fighting, my combat screen is nice and clear. All my commands are at my fingertips with shortcut keys and plenty of macros. My chat logs give me the information I want and allow me to filter out the rest. The only thing I would ever ask for is that they show us the MP of people in alliances and that's it.

You like it. That's fine. Plenty of people don't, however, and compared to other MMOs it's downright embarrassing.

And yet this game does much better then most of those MMOs. I don't think it's as embarrassing as you imagine. Plenty of people play this game and have no problems with the UI, infact many actually like it. Imagine that!

And many people have stated many times that the moon landings were faked. Saying the same thing over and over again does not make it true.

Well forgive me for believe what the makers of this game tell me over the whining complaints of someone who doesn't even play. I'm not the type of person who thinks SE is the devil and the FFXI devs lie to us every chance they get. Especially when they've been trying so hard for so long to give us, the players, a quality gaming experiance. So when they say something at some time, I'm going to take their word for it. And if things change then so be it.

They discovered? More like they finally gave in. Windower had been huge for at least a couple years before SE did anything about it.

Actually it wasn't until there was a poll taken and brought to the Dev's attention that showed that 90% of PC users used some sort of Windower that SE decided to take action. They chose to do so because the number was far large then they anticipated. It was a surprise for them to find out so many people "cheated" in this game so they finally decided to put in a legal version so people don't have to use that option.

A large portion of PC users is a large portion of the entire playerbase, numbnuts. 90% of 50% is still 45%.

You have such an excellent method of debate. BTW, the number of PC users in the playerbase is much less then 50%.

First of all, the Windower and the Macro addition don't have to be linked. Secondly, that is also because FFXI's Macro system is incredibly weak. Adding more slots was the least they could do. As I understand it, you can at least use commands to swap macro bars now, which opens up new possibilities in ease of use, although it's not a significant improvement.

I never said they were linked. I just said they came at the same time. You said:

They finally made one because an absurdly large amount of their playerbase was using one they weren't providing, which also happened to come with things that DID significantly alter the game.

And I said, the only non-gameplay change that came with the windower update was the macro book addition. Please, go find where I said they were linked in some way other then coming out at the same time.

I also have no problems with FFXI's macro system.

That still allows one player to see things that another cannot. If I'm lost in the middle of nowhere (Say, Xarcabard or Altepa), and I'm on a client with larger draw distance I have a better chance of finding a way out than someone who does not. It is an advantage. An absurdly small one? Yes. One that won't matter to anyone who's worth their monthly fee? Yes. Just like UI mods.

That is the lamest example I have ever heard. Most areas you can get lost in don't even work that way, they're mazes that won't let you see 5 steps ahead of you because of all the twists and turns. And even if you were in lost Xarca, just seeing the mountains still wouldn't help because of the way it's designed to make the nooks and paths difficult to see. But offering a customization tool to only a minority of the player base would be down right insulting to all of the players who can't get access to that tool. And no, most of the japanese players won't just drop their PS2s to go out and buy PCs.

Sure they can. Why not? Just stop supporting the PC and 360 versions (or if SE really cared about equality, never bother making them in the first place) and make it solely a PS2 affair. Then everyone would be on equal terms.

Sarcasm, funny. Oh wait, it's not.

Saying that FFXI's UI can be modified is like saying you can get a Model T in any color as long as it's black.

It's limited yes, but I enjoy my filters and chat window options.

I would apologize for the typo, but given that it's both incredibly obvious if you had read the next sentence, and you're using quote mining for a cheap insult, I won't.

You call me numbnuts then say I'M the one using cheap insults? I highlighted that portion because I had *no clue* what you meant by saying "making their party's HP display" because seeing as how wrong you are on so many other things, I felt it was possible that you actually forgot that you can always see your PT's hp.

While I won't say it wouldn't be a nice option for people to be able to change around their UI, unless that is an option given to all players it should not happen.

Unlike you, who seems to like taking potshots at SE whenever you can, I posted the reasons they stated for the addition of Windower, the reason for a universal GUI and the reasons why the PS2 userbase is far more important then people, especially you, give them credit for. No need to get pissy at me because your bias against SE proves you wrong.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

Going back to the whole point of this thread... I think FFXI could learn from DAoC in terms of their Realm vs. Realm (PvP) system... that's really the only area that I find could make the game vastly more enjoyable is an improvement to the PvP system.

[DakAttack]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

It could learn a bit about reward schedules from WoW.

[Feba]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

No, PC users don't have a significant advantage.

Exactly, and adding a customizable UI wouldn't be a significant advantage either.

why in the hell would you expect people who make a *japanese* game to not cater to their larger, japanese playerbase.

Why expect SE to do anything for NAs? Why bother planning maintenence to avoid our primetime? Why bother answering our GM calls? If PCs are as unpopular in Japan as you claim, why have a Windows version at all?

I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of Japanese players that would be just as happy to see a customizable UI as we would.

And yet this game does much better then most of those MMOs.

And much worse than many of them too. Especially among the NA market.

Plenty of people play this game and have no problems with the UI, infact many actually like it.

Guess what, they don't need to change it just because it's customizable! There are plenty of people who are just fine with the defaults on most software. But you'd never take out the preferences menu because of them.

So when they say something at some time, I'm going to take their word for it.

That's nice. Perhaps if you stop eating up PR bullshit and calling it steak, you'd understand.

Are there probably people on the dev team trying to make FFXI a quality experience? Sure. Is FFXI first and foremost a business enterprise, with which SE has a long history of worrying much more about their pocketbook than making their players happy? Yes.

Actually it wasn't until there was a poll taken

Ding ding ding. The fact that Archbell was a name known to pretty much everyone who played FFXI should've been a hint. The fact that pretty much every other game made within the past decade could be run in windowed mode should've been a hint.

the number of PC users in the playerbase is much less then 50%.

Hurray quotemining! Debate is so much easier when you don't have to actually counter someone's points, isn't it? For the record, numbnuts, it's called an example. I could've just as easily gone with "75% of 80% is still 60%", or any other example. The point is that an amount of a smaller amount is still an amount. A large portion of the playerbase uses/used Windower. Whether that large portion is exclusive to the portion that also happens to play on PC is irrelevant.

I just said they came at the same time.

Thus implying a link. Otherwise, why bring it up?

And I said, the only non-gameplay change that came with the windower update was the macro book addition.

I was pretty clearly talking about the things that came with Archbell's windower, not SE's halfassed update.

I also have no problems with FFXI's macro system.

Good for you! Why do you have a problem with other people being as satisfied with FFXI as you are?

That is the lamest example I have ever heard.

And yet, people complained about it when the 360 version was released.

Is it a lame advantage? yes. But it is an advantage. Will anyone with a map, a sense of direction, or any knowledge of the area care? nope. Customization and improvements don't make things harder on anyone. They don't make the game worse for PS2 users. This is the same kind of asinine logic that is used against graphics upgrades.

"but if someone gets better graphics, someone using a piece of hardware that is EIGHT FUCKING YEARS OLD might get their panties in a knot because they can't do it too!". Nobody who owns a PS2 and is fucking sane would be bothered by someone having an experience that is more enjoyable for them.

Oh wait, it's not.

It wasn't meant to be. If SE really wanted players to be equal, they wouldn't have released it on more powerful systems. They especially wouldn't have allowed those systems to take advantage of their more powerful graphics.

Hell, even using a high res PC monitor gives you a huge advantage in terms of chat bar size, which can actually be useful. That's just as harmful as anything customizable UIs could add.

It's limited yes, but I enjoy my filters and chat window options.

Filters aren't UI customization anymore than a blacklist is. Chat window options are a step in the right direction, but nowhere close to useful customization.

You call me numbnuts then say I'M the one using cheap insults?

Yes. There's a difference between insults and using cheap tactics like quote mining to try to make a point, numbnuts.

I felt it was possible that you actually forgot

If you honestly mean that, you should get help. That is a pretty clear sign of reading comprehension troubles. You should also probably talk to humans more. Nobody would say "make their party member's HP display" like that. They'd say 'or show their party member's hp', or something to that effect.

unless that is an option given to all players it should not happen.

There is no reason to tie FFXI to the lowest common denominator, unless you want to kill it. The PS2 is a fine system, and FFXI pushes it to it's edges already. I highly doubt any PS2 users would complain if they missed out on having, for example, a mouse friendly UI.

Why not apply the same philosophy to the roads? Nobody gets air conditioning unless everybody gets air conditioning. Nobody gets satelite radio unless everybody gets satelite radio. Nobody gets leather seats unless everybody gets leather seats.

The thing is, not everybody wants leather seats. Or even AC. Not everybody wants a bitchin' bose sound system. Some people don't want a convertable, or a sun roof.

But we have the choice of how we interact with the roads. There's no reason why we should all feel like we're riding in an '85 Civic when we have luxury cars. Everybody can go down the road at the same speed. Everybody can obey the laws or right of way. People that break the laws get their license revoked. Everyone's happier that way.

I posted the reasons they stated for the addition of Windower,

That's nice. The fact remains that not having a windowed mode function on nearly ANY piece of software, especially a game, is asinine. By your own logic, though, SE has now given PC users an advantage. Either you believe them or you don't.

Maybe they honestly believed that it was somehow harmful to the game. But SE truly believing that a windowed mode would somehow give a PC user an advantage, but not worrying about all of us with second computers, or the 360/PS2 users who use their computers/laptops when they play, or people who have internet devices, or cell phones (the list goes on) is almost scarier to think than that their programmers were just lazy.

the reasons why the PS2 userbase is far more important then people, especially you, give them credit for.

I give the PS2 userbase plenty of credit. If I ever come back, it will probably be on PS2. I never said to disown the PS2, to abandon it, or to punish it. I'm just saying don't hold back FFXI's potential because of it. PS2 users have a great game, possibly one of the most impressive ones on the console, even technically speaking. I've never seen one of them who would complain about PC users getting a quality game.

In fact, every time I've seen a PS2 user talk about PC users using Windower plugins, FFassist, etc. they're always indifferent. They play on a PS2. What do they care? They don't mind if other people use it, even if they can't.

No need to get pissy at me because your bias against SE proves you wrong.

I have no bias against SE. I simply recognize their faults. SE makes quality RPGs. They've made their share of mistakes in FFXI, but they're constantly improving it. They look at their games as a business venture first, and as works of art second. They would rather let FFXI die and make a new project than put a significant amount of work (read: money) into improvement.


I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Even SE themselves have said they'd rather make a new MMO than revamp FFXI. Some of us, however, actually care about this one. And yes, I care about a game I don't even play anymore. I, and everyone in this thread, care about things we are not personally involved in.

[Tokagawa]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

I've always said that any MMO could learn a thing or two from a game called "Nexus, the kingdom of winds" (Nexus Atlas - NexusTK's #1 Source for Information for info)

Yes its graphics suck but it has the best community of any game i've ever played. There is a real justice system (that isn't run by GMs but players who are ELECTED Judge) Each path (in FFXI's case job) has a leader called a "Path Elder" who has worked with the path for years on end. Each Job is more of a family than just something you play. They have a home and everything. There are clans (like linkshells) run by players who run the games events. But insted of everyone being able to make a linkshell you have to start as an unoffical clan (not chat, clan bank, home, or anything) then after completing tons of trials and staying together for a year you become a real clan (there are only 15 clans in the entire game) There are 3 armies, one for each nation. Run completely by the players. People who work hard are known and noticed and get good jobs in the game. And basically everyone contributes to the community. And the best part is the GMs are not hired by the company. They are picked by the head GM (whoever has been a GM the longest gets this position) and they are picked right out of the community. (of course they are awarded a secret GM char so no GM can be extra nice to their friends) its really just a community based game.

I just think tightly knit communities in MMOs is important.

[Pteryx]

Re: What MMO do you think FFXI could learn the most from, and why?

There is a real justice system (that isn't run by GMs but players who are ELECTED Judge)

Now that could be cool. Online justice in general tends to be terrible; it's nice to hear that someone's at least trying to do better.

Anyway... while I can't necessarily cite a specific MMO that does this, I'd imagine that most made by competent programmers would have it... server-side sanity checking. Many exploits and cheats I've heard of in FFXI could easily be nipped in the bud if they just did things like make sure the PC is next to an active mining point at SE's end before letting mining occur. -- Pteryx