how dith the game change after 2005

[Icemage]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Last time I checked, Silence, Gravity, Sleep, Sleep II, Dispel and Dia II are all classified under Enfeebling Magic, and I still manage to cast all of the above plus the odd Slow or two during a merit party on RDM.

I really don't understand why everyone thinks "enfeebling" is just Slow/Paralyze/Blind.

Not to mention I haven't seen a RDM used in a primary healing role at endgame in quite some time. While my RDM can out-heal my WHM on a solo basis, my WHM certainly handles the role better when supported by double Ballad + Befresh/Sublimation. At endgame, it's almost always Slow II/Paralyze II/Refresh/Gravity/Bind/Dispel plus whatever extras come with your subjob, be it Stun or Erase or whatever.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Its fine that Icemage and Itazura want to insist enfeebles are useful in ToA camps, but the high EXP chains of most parties say otherwise. If we we're talking the IT++ mobs, I'd agree that enfeebles are still useful, but on T and VT burn mobs, they've always been next to worthless. The mob doesn't live long enough for what they do to matter.

I've never been in a PT that needed RDM to sleep-stage mobs and against the LOLibri, I'd rather they didn't anyway when I can land a sleep that can't be mimicked and thrown back. Why risk an ally losing a shadow because RDM decided they needed to cast an enfeeble? Maybe I just have PTs with the luxury or a BRD all the time, but I'll tell you now I don't seek "BRD onry" PTs.

I didn't say enfeebles were pointless at endgame, though, so I don't know why anyone bothered to take the discussion that direction.

Finally, my comments about RDM don't concern any RDM's fortunate experience contrary to the general use of RDM in EXP or endgame. You want to mislead other RDMs just because your endgame LS is different? Fine, but I'm not going to BS about what RDMs are asked to do in general. Even in the best endgame LSes, the use of support classes can be fairly one-dimensional. You might get to do something different and that's nice, but often, its probably also not neccessary.

Aside: Yellow Mage, I've said it once, I'll say it a million times over. What the instruction manual said about the job was not a promise. SE cannot be held responsible for what a community wants RDMs to do. SE makes the jobs, the community themselves DEFINES those jobs based on the skills SE gives them.

I'd actually love it endgame linkshell leaders sat down and acknowledged that five new jobs have been added to the game in the last two years, but a lot of them sit there with thier thumbs up thier asses and play with thier RoZ/CoP endgame handbooks open. They can make SCHs come as healers, don't know what the the hell to do with COR, BLU or PUP and often tell DNCs to come as another job, just as they do with the previous three since they can't be bothered to actually think about how to integrate and implement them.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Its fine that Icemage and Itazura want to insist enfeebles are useful in ToA camps, but the high EXP chains of most parties say otherwise.

While I may be and oddball, don't forget Icemage is the one who claims regular chain 200's, and can provide the screenshots to prove it.

If he says enfeebls helps his RDM to get those chain 200's in WS spam parties, I'd believe him.

I've never been in a PT that needed RDM to sleep-stage mobs and against the LOLibri, I'd rather they didn't anyway when I can land a sleep that can't be mimicked and thrown back. Why risk an ally losing a shadow because RDM decided they needed to cast an enfeeble? Maybe I just have PTs with the luxury or a BRD all the time, but I'll tell you now I don't seek "BRD onry" PTs.

It helps at times; Sleep on Colibri certainly not something I'd do if the BRD or some other puller is doing it right, but do you really want BRD to use Horde Lullaby if he links an extra Colibri or two? (Keep in mind the population of COR is still very low, and most people party without one.)

For other critters, it all depends on how many are brought back. The use of Sleep I/II are situational, but they are used.

Finally, my comments about RDM don't concern any RDM's fortunate experience contrary to the general use of RDM in EXP or endgame. You want to mislead other RDMs just because your endgame LS is different? Fine, but I'm not going to BS about what RDMs are asked to do in general. Even in the best endgame LSes, the use of support classes can be fairly one-dimensional. You might get to do something different and that's nice, but often, its probably also not neccessary.

I'll freely admit my perspective is limited to my own experiences, but keep in mind: so is yours.

Outside of my social niche, what I do see in pickup groups (when I don't play RDM) is that other RDMs do cast enfeeb spells--and people grumble when they don't.

"Necessary" or not is a judgment call. I see no reason to not to cast Silence on a "no HP" Imp no matter how fast they die--far better than to eat a Firaga II. Same for the Mamool Ja which can cast Sleepga. Same for the RDM Troll so I can stop Dispel spamming. I call that enough reason to make it a necessity; you can call it whatever you like.

[Icemage]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

In a pickup merit party, you absolutely must be prepared to cast Sleeps on RDM. If the melees aren't running on all cylinders and properly Provoking or otherwise getting the attention of incoming monsters, the RDM is the only one in the party standing between the Bard or Corsair and ugly death.

I'm also not sure we can talk explicitly about lolibri camps as being the only targets for XP. Frankly, I think my WHM/SCH can handle a lolibri camp with no RDM support whatsoever and maintain a 200+ chain safely.

Against anything that actually fights back, like Trolls or Mamool Ja, at the very least, Sleep II is a good fallback, especially since Lullaby doesn't always land 100% against those targets, and Silence is always a good move against both of the latter.

Do I bother casting Slow, Paralyze, or Gravity against Colibri? Absolutely not. Will I cast Dia II against them? Absolutely yes.

---

In any case, getting back to the topic at hand, Red Mage hasn't changed much since 2005. The big winners since that period have been Summoner, Warrior, Dark Knight, and Samurai, with a lesser boost for Dragoon. Rangers got hammered, and all of the newer jobs (Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Scholar, Dancer) are still struggling to find their places at endgame, though they're all fairly capable in the XP level ranges.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

I agree with Itaz an Icemage

While you may not use all the enfeebles (slow/blind/para/gravity/sleep(2)/bind/dia/bio(yes its dark but atk down is a debuff). You will cast some of these in most party situations. Against Colibri (one of the most common xp mobs 73-75 and meripo) you wont find yourself needing to cast enfeebles such as slow/para/gravity/bind/blind because the mobs die in 30-40's when your running a high octane party. However you will be using dia(I-III) to speed up the kills, which helps save chains. Also Sleep 2 is a spell I cant get enough of and has helped us aling to high chain levels. It lets the BRD/COR or other puller not have to worry about it when it wakes up. Ive had 3-4 birds at a time slept lined up for the dd's to hack away at, a brd's lullaby dosent offer that kind of efficency using your dia, and sleeps makes the junp from 20K/hr to 25+ alot more reachable.

Alternitvley you can go hang with the BLM's where you will be using gravity/bind/paralyze more often to elp prevent the blm's from getting hit running from cast range, or stopping the cast all together. Also here you are free to nuke a little more, bring a good INT/MAB set up and drop some teir 3 blizzard out and laugh at your damage compared to the BLM's. Personally this is my favorite meripo because I get to have fun its a lot more laid back and enjoyable. They dont require cures often as they can drain for good amounts or cure them selves, all they ask for is refresh and a little mob control this pulls about 10-12K/hr. This is also a nice camp if you have a BLM friend you can duo the pudings and push chain 7-8 getting about 8-10K and hour

[Ziero]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Minor fixes.

Ya know, I was doing Campaign last night with my Rdm friend when all of a sudden she comments on something. I'm paraphrasing here from memory but she basically said "There are at least two other Rdm here and NONE of them are Dispelling". I also made note that the only enfeebles that seemed to go off were the ones being cast by the Temp item mines you can buy from the NPCs.

So if Rdm don't want to main heal, nor use their enfeebles and dispelling buffs...what do they want to do?

Changes for RDM: RDM became seen as healer class in ToA expansion, favored by many for its Haste buffs, curative abilities and high MP endurance.

I've been using Rdm as main healers since long before 2005.

[Murphie]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

I know there are differing philosophies here (I'm referring to the "Should solo mages feel obligated to help other people they encounter in Campaign" debate), but is Campaign really the best way to gauge how RDMs behave?

Then again, even if the RDMs weren't trying to benefit anyone else, they would be benefiting themselves by tossing a few enfeebles out.

[Ziero]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Then again, even if the RDMs weren't trying to benefit anyone else, they would be benefiting themselves by tossing a few enfeebles out.

Dispelling Dread Spikes and Def boosts help a meleeing Rdm in every possible way

[Murphie]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Yes, that's what I said.

[MrMageo]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Campaign is no place to judge a job's preformance what so ever and that goes for any job. When I do campaign I personally use all my enfeebles/nukes/weapons/cures/buffs and raises. But there are RDM's there that do not so it is not really a big deal. Chances are the mob will already be enfeebled byt the time they get t it so it is a waste of their MP and I am sure thats how they look at it.

As for what RDM's want to do, most of them now adays dont have a problem doing what the party asks them because they never knew any different. However there are still some of us older RDM's that remeber what a Magic Burst is and what our enfeebles acctually do, when to cast bio and dia etc. Personally I miss that I dont like just being a main heal all the time. But that is me, and thats why I either party th the BLM's or make a SC+MB party.

[DakAttack]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

I know there are differing philosophies here (I'm referring to the "Should solo mages feel obligated to help other people they encounter in Campaign" debate), but is Campaign really the best way to gauge how RDMs behave?

Then again, even if the RDMs weren't trying to benefit anyone else, they would be benefiting themselves by tossing a few enfeebles out.

It's probably a good way to gauge a single person's personality, or the team work of a group. I was a Paladin and I was always healing, raising, and tanking when I didn't have a dark staff equipped.

[MrMageo]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Heh I tank campaign mobs as RDM/WAR but don't see me doing it in a party. Campaign is about as much of a personality judging tool as watching someone solo.

[eticket109]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Not that I like the Alla forums much anymore but there is a great thread there on the history of changes throughout the game.

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Forums

[Murphie]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

It's probably a good way to gauge a single person's personality, or the team work of a group. I was a Paladin and I was always healing, raising, and tanking when I didn't have a dark staff equipped.

Which is all well and good. But no one else is obligated to do so. Just because you're choosing to ascribe certain personality traits to someone soloing through Campaign doesn't mean that that person isn't a great team player when part of a team.

[DakAttack]

Re: how dith the game change after 2005

Just because you're choosing to ascribe certain personality traits to someone soloing through Campaign doesn't mean that that person isn't a great team player when part of a team.

I don't remember stating otherwise. I remember there was this one Red Mage who would always show up in Jugner and pull single enemies away to solo all by himself. If somebody ran up and started whacking on it he'd disengage and find another enemy to pull off and solo. We'd always toss each other a raise when necessary.