Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

well, originally, yes, but as evidenced by the amount of people who use NIN between 20 and 24, WARs that use it before 74 (except in a dual tank), and people that don't have Utsusemi, I think it's a bit of a question in itself if that's really the case anymore.

And I've seen some people sub NIN from level 1 to level 10.

I think that no matter what changes, people will stay make silly bandwagon based choices on their subjob.

[Shadowneko]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Unlike most people I've been unimpressed with Dual Wield...so much so that when I finally finish farming up my endgame THF equips I'm going to be subbing warrior in merit parties. I just don't get it...the delay is worse than most 2H weapons which makes you attack very slowly when subbed and the darn imp will be dead before you get 2-3 hits in(despite lower delay weapons).

It just doesn't impress me...I will however keep Ninja for a situational sub...

(if it was given to every job they would only get dual weid 1 with no haste...anything else would unbalance the game)

[Akashimo]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Unlike most people I've been unimpressed with Dual Wield...so much so that when I finally finish farming up my endgame THF equips I'm going to be subbing warrior in merit parties. I just don't get it...the delay is worse than most 2H weapons which makes you attack very slowly when subbed and the darn imp will be dead before you get 2-3 hits in(despite lower delay weapons).

Dual Wield - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

[Ziero]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Dual Wield I gives a base 10% delay reduction, with the appropriate TP per hit reduction as well. DW II increase that to 15% iirc. And with the proper haste gear and equip it will allow you to swing at incredible speeds.
______________________________

Dual Wield - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

*clicks link, gets blocked*

...accursed work filters

[Kitalrez]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Would it make sense to give other jobs DW, though? Not from a damage standpoint, but from a job/game history standpoint? Akashimo already mentioned DNC and THF. So, let's look at NIN. Why do they have DW in the first place? It was in other games, yes, but it's also in the lore of that job. NIN were supposedly trained so they could fight with whatever hand was free at the moment. Now look at another job you mentioned, RNG. RNG historically isn't a job that trains to use both hands. For instance, Mongolian Horse archers were far more concerned with shooting from a trot or gallop than with being able to shoot lefty. If you had a target on the other side, you'd pivot your torso that way. Same deal today, the marines didn't send me out to the rifle range and expect me to hit a target using either hand. It isn't because they don't value marksmanship, either. Marines pride themselves on being sharpshooters, and if you look at their recruiting materials and boot-camp reading lists they're basically setting infantrymen up to be "sniper lite". Here's your modern-day RNG equivalent, and it's much less concerned with how many different ways you can hit a target than it is with whether you're actually hitting it period.

To that end:

THF can make the case that ambidexterity is rather important to this job. THFs are about misdirection and dexterous movements, this would make sense.

DNC can make the case that they aren't trained to do movements with just one hand. Most ballets do not take place moving only right to left. Neither do more acrobatic modern dances.

MNK could make the case that they already use both hands in attacking, why not let them use clubs the same way?

WAR could make the case that their whole job is based around how many different ways they can hit the mob, they're the master of weapons after all.

The rest of the jobs? Not so much. S-E took a really hard line defining SAM and NIN as being wholly separate jobs, so much of Miyamoto Musashi's work wouldn't fit. Mage jobs and supporters are in the same boat. Neither Knight class seems suited for this, either.

Does it make sense to give them DW itself, though? Would it be more fitting to give them a new ability, (let's call it "Ambidexterity"), that works like DW but is say 1/2 to 3/4 as effective and doesn't stack with DW bonuses, but DW gear is modified to raise if equippable by that job. There would be your bonus, but without discounting the training aspect of NIN lore.


And finally, to Feba... Dear God, no, no it isn't that simple. Just because you have two hands doesn't mean you can be any good with them. I train in Shaolin Kempo Karate, and after purple belt we're allowed to work on weapons training. The first time I learned to use a staff my sensei said to me: "Hmm, you're pretty good with that right handed, try it the other way." At this point, no matter what the weapon the following always happens: within five minutes someone is on the floor, clutching their groin, and making the most horrific noises you've ever heard. Nunchuks, bo-staves, sai, swords, escrima sticks or batons, results are typically similar. Thank god they're all dulled. In attempting to use a bo-staff left handed, I managed to hit myself in the shin, the knee, the groin, both the front and back of my head, and this was with both hands on the actual staff. Let's not go into how badly I wrecked myself trying it one handed. It took me the better part of two months just training exclusively with windmilling the staff on my left side before I could pull it off, and I was considered a fast learner.

Your brain will also work against you. You may pick up that weapon in the off hand, but that just means your brain has to tell your body to use that hand first now. Which takes a split second, compounded by moving muscles that aren't used to moving that way, which takes more split seconds. Sooner or later, you have enough slowing that the attempt to parry that incoming sword thrust can only make it to your shoulder or leg in time. Not fatal, but not worth switching hands either.

[711rocks]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

i sub nin more for shadows then for DW

[Eiyoko]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Personally I'd rather keep Dual Wield only on only ninja, since it defines the job. Each job in the game needs to be special in its own right; if they're all the same, then where's the fun in that?

I do, however, agree with Kitalrez's post.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

I think the point is more to find out what is a more prefered boost from /nin, Utsu or DW..

Any melee/tank job can hit the accuracy cap with ease. RNG, DRG, DNC and anything /RNG just have the easiest means of hitting said cap.

They don't really sub for stat bonuses from, they sub for Utsusemi. Even when I'm /NIN on RNG, I'm using a fire staff since it offers me more than Fransica + Kriegsbiel could. But then, I could get +5 STR from Hasso if I just did /SAM instead.

/NIN is for Utsusemi, it really just is.

[Akashimo]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

True, but i like having two weapons ; ;
I rather have HS + Justice Sword with /war Berserk and double attack o_o;
Let Tripple, Virtue and Double attack massive kick in, kick in xD

[Tickmeoff]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

I've always thought BLU should have Dual Wield naturally. Either that, or give them something else to put there that actually does something. They have no shield options at all until 29, and of the shields they can equip most are either non-existant on the AH or just plain useless to a BLU.

[Sevv]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

I've always thought BLU should have Dual Wield naturally. Either that, or give them something else to put there that actually does something. They have no shield options at all until 29, and of the shields they can equip most are either non-existant on the AH or just plain useless to a BLU.

I can't tell if your name is a joke or a challenge.. thus I will take it as both.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Yeah Blue Mage's best Shield's cannot be found on the AH, but Blue Mage's have alot of shield options, especially the blue mage's who sub /thf (win)

Best low level shield for BLU:


This works until 74:


And at 74, this is a must have, especially for Solo Blue Mages:


Even though this can be found on the AH its still a pretty decent shield:


And if you don't have an endgame LS or friends to help you obtain the RAR/EX shields, this is also a passable option for BLU:


For Blue Mage's /nin is perfectly acceptable for exp partys or soloing, although exp party /thf is also nice. Endgame though, /thf just rocks... SATA Cannonball just.. yeah...it wins...

Back to the conversation though:

I think people who sub /nin (THF is fine) think they build TP faster if they have 2 weapons. I know it may be the case with the right gear,etc. But subbing /nin for dual wield doesnt always necessarily mean faster TP.

TOAU just murdered it because people thought "OH YEAH faster i build tp faster i can just pump out a weaponskill at 100TP"

[Feba]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

RNG historically isn't a job that trains to use both hands.

And finally, to Feba... Dear God, no, no it isn't that simple. Just because you have two hands doesn't mean you can be any good with them. I train in Shaolin Kempo Karate, and after purple belt we're allowed to work on weapons training. The first time I learned to use a staff my sensei said to me: "Hmm, you're pretty good with that right handed, try it the other way."

While I mostly agree with you, this is rather flawed: I'm referring to using multiple weapons, not two handed weapons with the main hand switching.

While I agree that using multiple weapons wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world, I think that it's a small task compared to things like most JAs or WS.

[Alinys]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

I really wouldn't want other jobs to be given Dual Wield - I'd feel a little duped if I went NIN and ended up losing out on one of the 'exclusive' things. I'm not going NIN just for Dual Wield, but it's nice to know that I'm taking the only job in the game that can do it.

[Ziero]

Re: Adding dual weild to non-NIN jobs

Would it make sense to give other jobs DW, though? Not from a damage standpoint, but from a job/game history standpoint? Akashimo already mentioned DNC and THF. So, let's look at NIN. Why do they have DW in the first place? It was in other games, yes, but it's also in the lore of that job. NIN were supposedly trained so they could fight with whatever hand was free at the moment. Now look at another job you mentioned, RNG. RNG historically isn't a job that trains to use both hands. For instance, Mongolian Horse archers were far more concerned with shooting from a trot or gallop than with being able to shoot lefty. If you had a target on the other side, you'd pivot your torso that way. Same deal today, the marines didn't send me out to the rifle range and expect me to hit a target using either hand. It isn't because they don't value marksmanship, either. Marines pride themselves on being sharpshooters, and if you look at their recruiting materials and boot-camp reading lists they're basically setting infantrymen up to be "sniper lite". Here's your modern-day RNG equivalent, and it's much less concerned with how many different ways you can hit a target than it is with whether you're actually hitting it period.

To be fair, this concept would still be in effect even if Rng did get a 'natural DW' because they could still only wield one firearm. Ranged weapons, excluding throwing items, are all 'two handed' weapons (except for elf guys and galkas...the bastards) in that you can't DW them at all and need 'two hands' to use them.

And in past FF games, you often obtained 'dual wield' from items. Genji Gloves anyone?

Does it make sense to give them DW itself, though? Would it be more fitting to give them a new ability, (let's call it "Ambidexterity"), that works like DW but is say 1/2 to 3/4 as effective and doesn't stack with DW bonuses, but DW gear is modified to raise if equippable by that job. There would be your bonus, but without discounting the training aspect of NIN lore.

So basically, it would just be a slower natural DW. That's not too bad of an idea. It'll never happen mind you, but I wouldn't complain if it did. If it were from Thf and subbable, Blus would absolutely love it. Though most other jobs would still choose /nin. And for that matter, /nin's DW should be able to 'overwrite' it as opposed to just not stacking.

And finally, to Feba... Dear God, no, no it isn't that simple. Just because you have two hands doesn't mean you can be any good with them. I train in Shaolin Kempo Karate, and after purple belt we're allowed to work on weapons training. The first time I learned to use a staff my sensei said to me: "Hmm, you're pretty good with that right handed, try it the other way." At this point, no matter what the weapon the following always happens: within five minutes someone is on the floor, clutching their groin, and making the most horrific noises you've ever heard. Nunchuks, bo-staves, sai, swords, escrima sticks or batons, results are typically similar. Thank god they're all dulled. In attempting to use a bo-staff left handed, I managed to hit myself in the shin, the knee, the groin, both the front and back of my head, and this was with both hands on the actual staff. Let's not go into how badly I wrecked myself trying it one handed. It took me the better part of two months just training exclusively with windmilling the staff on my left side before I could pull it off, and I was considered a fast learner.

Your brain will also work against you. You may pick up that weapon in the off hand, but that just means your brain has to tell your body to use that hand first now. Which takes a split second, compounded by moving muscles that aren't used to moving that way, which takes more split seconds. Sooner or later, you have enough slowing that the attempt to parry that incoming sword thrust can only make it to your shoulder or leg in time. Not fatal, but not worth switching hands either.

Reminds me of that scene from the Princess Bride while Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black were dueling.