Mainstream Mages.

[Neomage]

For a while now I have been contemplating what SE could do to get magic-users back into the mainstream. I have noticed a trend where many white and black magic users, regardless if they are BLM, PLD, WHM, or DRK, have fallen out of favor and been replaced with XXX/NIN.

Changes to Elemental Magic:

AM II: Sure, the extra damage is nice on HNMs and BCNMs, but despite being more MP efficient then Tier I AM spells, they are less efficient then Tier IV Nukes. This further pulls BLM out of the mainstream and isolates them to manaburns and high-def. monsters in endgame.

Elemental Catalysts: Instead of giving BLM Tier V and IV -ga nukes, I propose an ability that gives a one-spell bonus to potency(~10%), rather then accuracy. To prevent this from becoming overpowering, it will consume one Crystal Catalyst item synthesized through Alchemy, and will be based on a 30-second(1 minute?) timer, but will also stack, similar to Boost.

To prevent one-shot spamming though, these catalysts will be similar to the automation maneuvers, where if you have to many there is a chance the spell will overload and backfire, dealing AoE elemental damage to yourself and anything around you (friend or foe). I would put the safe zone at 3 charges, then for each additional charge adds a 10% chance of overload, but would cap at 50% chance of backfiring, with a max of 10 charges(100% potency boost, but requires 5 minutes without casting, and 50% chance of overload).

Changes to Enfeebling Magic:

Bio III. Where are we going with this exactly? Forcing RDM to put 120,000 EXP to put out for the same damage as a BLM or DRK at a vastly inflated MP cost? I mean really. SE should make this into a scroll, and give it to somebody who can actually use it effectively. BLM and DRK, gogo.

Dia III. Scroll It. Give it to WHM and RDM. Mabye even Dia IV. Still less DoT, more functionality? Or something. Mabye a RDM could chip in on this.

Break? Yes please. Make those goblins who spam Stona actually worth something. They can't cast it when their petrified themselves, but still. Perhaps this could be a RDM version of Stun, but with longer cast time and longer duration.

Confuse. Single-Target Amnesia, give it to something other then those Imps. Does amnesia prevent WS from being used? If not, now it can. On monsters, anyway. They would still keep the TP, but it would delay the attacks, maybe enough to kill them.

Changes to Enhancing Magic:

Enlight. Endark. Enough said.

Also, what about Tier II Enspells?

With Scholar's stratagems, Phalanx II has become worthless. I propose that RDM gets a "Crimson Seal" ability that is meritable instead of Phalanx II. This would allow RDM to cast any single-target spell on one other person, allowing full-strength Phalanxes, Stoneskins, and if /NIN even Utsusemi to be transfered to ONE other party member, keeping SCH's role intact as a party support job.

Regen II. Give it to RDM. They could really use it. Also, Refresh II(Don't worry Bards I am covering you later...) and Regain(TP Regen). Maybe give WHM Regain also, and Tier I Refresh.

Finally, BLM should get Warp III or Exit. It should not be overpowering, but would simply despawn the monster(without rewarding EXP or items) until it repops. Make this cost say, 250 MP with 30 second recast so it cannot be abused, and also make NMs immune so people don't run around D2ing monsters in BCNMS or mission fights, or something like Ose.

Changes to Healing Magic:

Divine Veil. Make it a separate ability. I mean really... And give it a recast time of say, 5 minutes? 10 is to long for an AoE Erase.

Erm... Actually I think thats it, if you WHMs need something else just tell me... not really versed in this category...

Changes to Summoning Magic:

Remember those 18-man avatar fights SE introduced a while back? Here is an idea for rewards from them: Tier II Avatars. I realize that avatar power scales with level, but these coulds cost more MP, but have stronger abilities.

Either that, or make Tier II Avatars meritable instead of the new bloodpacts. Let Summoners spend more time summoning and less time curing.


Changes to magic in general:

Bonus to Conserve MP. The main problem why mages are shoved aside is because they lack the means to keep up with roaming parties and need to stand in one position to rest. Because of this, they are very powerful for a small amount of time but very quickly lose all their power when they sit down to get back MP.

An addition I think that would be welcomed by all, this will make BLM and WHM be able to keep up with fast-paced, as well as allow PLD and DRK to stay in action without having to sit down, similar to NIN-based tanks and DDs.

Also, we need enhanced and more access to Refresh effects. The last MP recovery spell is given to BRD at level 55, and here we are 20 levels later with the same spells! Give RDM Refresh II(As mentioned earlier), WHM Refresh I(after RDM get access to Refresh II of course), and BRD Mage's Ballad III. To keep COR from being left out, add a level ~65(?) Job Trait called Smoke & Mirrors that enhances the effects of Evoker's Roll.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

For a while now I have been contemplating what SE could do to get magic-users back into the mainstream. I have noticed a trend where many white and black magic users, regardless if they are BLM, PLD, WHM, or DRK, have fallen out of favor and been replaced with XXX/NIN.

RDM is as popular as ever, while BLMs, WHMs and PLDs are quite welcomed in endgame. It's true that at times we see PLD/NIN where we used to see PLD/WAR, but things change and players adopt better strategies as time marches on--just ask the NIN/DRK.

If your idea of "mainstream" is just about exp party, I would say BLM needs help. But, you did cover tier II Ancient Magic, so... BLM still has its place after the exp phase. (No clue about DRK. <_<; )

Bio III. Where are we going with this exactly?

We're going RDM/SCH for kiting game, that's where we're going.

Dia III. Scroll It.

Why? How would that make RDM more popular? (Not that RDM needs to be more popular...)

Break? Yes please. [ ...] Confuse. Single-Target Amnesia,

Too powerful, if they can land on anything where they can make a difference. Probably going to be game breaking unless weakened to pointlessness.

Enlight. Endark. Enough said.

Don't really need it... It's a minor asymmetry in my spell list--hardly anything worth getting worked up over.

Also, what about Tier II Enspells?

So RDM can spend more time up front? While that has its appeals, RDM at this point is not broken, and certainly popular enough.

Some party with people mostly from the same LS invited me to merit party. Their PLD decided to skill up great sword. I balked--asked the leader to replace me because I don't want to cure a PLD who willingly turns himself into an MP sponge. Instead of kicking me, they made the PLD put his shield back on.

That's how popular RDM is. We don't need much fixing, in all honesty.

With Scholar's stratagems, Phalanx II has become worthless.

Phalanx is now worth less--but not worthless.

Who do you want to kick out of the tank party to make room for SCH? The PLD? WHM? RDM? BRD? SMN?

Yes, SCH/WHM or SCH/RDM can make a stronger Phalanx for tanks, and they can keep it up long enough for most uses. But it also means you'd either have to deal with the trouble of rotating people in and out of tank party, or save a spot for them.

That means trade off--meaningful trade offs by choosing between good options with different strengths and weaknesses.

Regen II. Give it to RDM.

RDM/SCH has it.

If it's native, then RDM would be able to take over WHM's role even more. No WHM would like that, and, frankly, many RDMs would be opposed as well.

They could really use it. Also, Refresh II(Don't worry Bards I am covering you later...) and Regain(TP Regen). Maybe give WHM Regain also, and Tier I Refresh.

Regain? Are you nuts? FFXI is too much WS spamming, as is.

As for more Refresh or Ballad, we already have three forms of stackable refresh type effects, plus all sorts of Auto Refresh gear, and two Support Jobs you can sub to get Auto Refresh.

Enough is enough, really.

Finally, BLM should get Warp III or Exit. It should not be overpowering, but would simply despawn the monster(without rewarding EXP or items) until it repops. Make this cost say, 250 MP with 30 second recast so it cannot be abused,

So, bring BLM x4 to Sky, and each despawn one of Kirin's summons... That's not overpowering?!

Oh, I get it, you want to improve BLM's popularity. It's not like people want BLMs at Kirin fights, right---oh wait... (No, not every Sky LS can manage a WS spam for that.)

Divine Veil. Make it a separate ability. I mean really... And give it a recast time of say, 5 minutes? 10 is to long for an AoE Erase.

SCH/WHM. Every 4 minutes. Plus Divine Veil if there's a WHM in party. Good enough?

Remember those 18-man avatar fights SE introduced a while back? Here is an idea for rewards from them: Tier II Avatars. I realize that avatar power scales with level, but these coulds cost more MP, but have stronger abilities.

Either that, or make Tier II Avatars meritable instead of the new bloodpacts.

AFAIK, SMN is quite welcomed in endgame as is, and there's no urgent need for stronger avatars/BPs there.

What they do need is a way to make exp parties desire them more--without breaking them in endgame. (By "breaking" when it comes to players' ideas of "improving" jobs", I usually means making the job too power for the good of the game.)

Also, we need enhanced and more access to Refresh effects. The last MP recovery spell is given to BRD at level 55, and here we are 20 levels later with the same spells! Give RDM Refresh II(As mentioned earlier), WHM Refresh I(after RDM get access to Refresh II of course), and BRD Mage's Ballad III. To keep COR from being left out, add a level ~65(?) Job Trait called Smoke & Mirrors that enhances the effects of Evoker's Roll.

So glad you're not a game designer.

* * *

The whole lot is mostly bad ideas, peppered with some even worse ideas. Sorry, but I hope S-E won't even look at this list of yours.

[Neomage]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

The main goal with this was an attempt to bring traditional EXP parties back without weakening TP burns. Personally, I was very fond of the SC + MB, but now I never see it except on HNMs, and when that happens 80% of the time I can't MB because the wrong skillchain was created(or nothing at all), because DDs these days don't seem to know how to SC anymore.

As for Break/Confuse/Warp III, I have no desire to introduce powerful, infallible spells into the game. Have you ever heard of resists Ita? Given the current resist rate that Sky Gods have, you would need a full alliance of BLMs casting Warp III to get one of Kirin's buddies to despawn. Also, they could simply make NMs 100% immune to these spells.

By Refresh II, I didn't mean give 12 MP refreshes out, but instead just 4 MP/tick for Refresh II and 2 MP/Tick Maged Ballad III(I realize that is the same amount as II, but 2 + 2 = 4)

Regain, fine. I can see where that could be left out. As for Regen II, It is still not as powerful as WHM, but I guess that could be left out also.

I didn't just come up with these ideas half-baked at a moments notice. I spent a while browsing the forums and talking to people in-game to see what others opinions on this was, and I got mostly constructive feedback. You're sitting here dissecting my post and pointing out every flaw and criticizing every concept with "It sucks". Why don't you tell me what you would do?

[Coinspinner]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Nah, just make skillchain and magic burst better so they're too good to ignore. And maybe introduce incremental upgrades to Conserve MP and MB bonus trait for BLM like what's on the sorcerer's gloves or AM2 merit.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

The main goal with this was an attempt to bring traditional EXP parties back without weakening TP burns.

This is not a desirable goal, IMO.

Think of the situation as three factions; the MP players, the melee players, and the monsters.

Right now, we can argue the melee players are too strong. Even if that's not the case, if you make MP users stronger, you would still put the monsters at (a further) disadvantage. That's bad for game balance.

The logical solution is to weaken the melee players. Either directly by tinkering with TP gain rate, WS damage, etc., or indirectly by adjusting gears and such.

Put it bluntly, nerfing melees will put mages up to par, but you (along with many other players) do not seem to want that. Making the players (melee and mages combined) stronger is something I don't want to see, however--I want just the opposite, as a matter of fact.


* * *

Personally, I was very fond of the SC + MB,

I'd like to see its return as well, though I'd probably prefer to transfer some of the damage potential from WS to SC (effect) instead of boosting magic damage.

* * *

As for Break/Confuse/Warp III, I have no desire to introduce powerful, infallible spells into the game. Have you ever heard of resists Ita?

That's "Itaz", if you must shorten it.

The problem with those spells you listed is that they are worthless if resisted, but too powerful if sticked. If often resisted, wouldn't help the mages much. If not often resisted, would hurt the game.

You had no provision in original posts on how to mitigate that, so I bashed. Now, you acknowledge you can't just toss them in--have to make special provisions at least for HNM. That a good improvement.

(Would have been helpful if you had detailed your ideas for mitigation against abuse a little faster--human beings cannot read minds, AFAIK.)

By Refresh II, I didn't mean give 12 MP refreshes out, but instead just 4 MP/tick for Refresh II and 2 MP/Tick Maged Ballad III(I realize that is the same amount as II, but 2 + 2 = 4)

Assuming Evoker's Roll gives 3 MP/tick on average, right now we can get up to 9 MP/tick on average before Auto Refresh job trait, equipment and Sanction/Sigil.

Of course, in order to get that, you'd have to use up three party slots (or rotate people in and out). I consider this a good design, because to get one benefit, you'd have to sacrifice something, such as a party slot or add the complication of rotating people in and out of party.

A meaningful choice for the players. (And, an opportunity to demonstrate a group's ability for teamwork, if using rotating in/out method.)

If we go with (your now more detailed) upgrades to Ballad and Refresh, it'd be 8 MP/tick from just two party slots as opposed to 9 mp/tick using three slots. That's less incentive to consider using three slots or rotation--and, make each refresher less valuable.

Sounds backwards? Not really. If healers aren't very powerful, like in Valkrum Dunes levels, you'd want two of them and maybe an additional part-time healer. When healing becomes cheap and plenty, parties toss out the WHM and make RDM the sole healer.

Making refresh effect stronger cheapens refreshers, by diminishing the advantage of having more.

Regain, fine. I can see where that could be left out. As for Regen II, It is still not as powerful as WHM, but I guess that could be left out also.

Thank you; Regain by itself was the worst suggestion in the entire post. If you understand what I meant about three factions, you can easily see why that's the case.

* * *

I criticize the list because it's the most useful thing I can do for the community; do what I can to make sure ideas like these in OP don't catch on (more).

* * *

Now, a completely shallow litmus test:
1. Every job should have a place at endgame, and doing one direct action on the target more than once every minute--exception being those jobs able to help other players do their parts better. (Another way of saying this is that every job must be potentially useful, and require some skills to achieve the said usefulness.)
2. If #1 can be achieved without making the activities "too easy", then it's good. ("Too easy" is intentionally not well defined here; if I can figure out how to define it, I'd be a game designer.)
3. Apply #1 and #2 to exp parties as well--every job must have a place, and the majority of the exp partying experience shouldn't be "too easy".

So, any suggestion for improving the game/jobs/etc. must meet those three conditions. All three of them.

Oh, and: Almost any possible change to one job has impact on other jobs and thus have implication on player-to-player balance as well as monster-to-player balance--nothing can be considered in isolation.

[Neomage]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I guess the problem was just a miscommunication then. Now that I see the points you where trying to make, I understand and even agree with them. And sorry about the name thing, usually I shorten names to three letters, not four.

[Michiko]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I , also miss the old Skillchain-Magic Bursts in Exp parties.

Imagine my surprise coming back after a year break and finding out that no one makes them anymore O.o;

[Truece]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

--human beings cannot read minds, AFAIK.)

I knew you were going to say that...

[Callisto]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

AFAIK, SMN is quite welcomed in endgame as is, and there's no urgent need for stronger avatars/BPs there.

1. Every job should have a place at endgame, and doing one direct action on the target more than once every minute--exception being those jobs able to help other players do their parts better. (Another way of saying this is that every job must be potentially useful, and require some skills to achieve the said usefulness.)
2. If #1 can be achieved without making the activities "too easy", then it's good. ("Too easy" is intentionally not well defined here; if I can figure out how to define it, I'd be a game designer.)

For the most part SMN in endgame is quite welcome, although in most big fights the typical SMN routine is along the lines of:

1) Press Nether Blast macro.
2) Wait 59 seconds.
3) Press Nether Blast macro again.
4) Repeat
5) Toss out a Cure III here and there.

Wouldn't say they need to be especially skilled to be useful.

[Ziero]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

For the most part SMN in endgame is quite welcome, although in most big fights the typical SMN routine is along the lines of:
1) Press Nether Blast macro.
2) Wait 59 seconds.
3) Press Nether Blast macro again.
4) Repeat
5) Toss out a Cure III here and there.
Wouldn't say they need to be especially skilled to be useful.

Is that any different from a Melee waiting for 100 tp, joining the Ally, using a WS, then dropping out?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Not everyone enjoys RDM's level of frantic activities. It's OK if some jobs are a bit slower. >_>;

My sister's SMN is usually in tank party, so she does plenty of Ward as well as Rage BPs. (And, yes, Cure III's.) Not sure how other SMN fare.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Hmmmm - As a Newbie I spent a good deal of time reading (and rereading and rereading) all of the info avail on the FFXIclopedia Wiki - and SC's are so overlooked these days. I did a little party with a couple of players (WAR and THF) and I kept trying to get a SC going - they didn't even know what it was. I explined reikei (Skillchains) to them and we ROCKED - one, two, three MAGIC BURST - Dead mob, HA!!! They were astonished that such a thing even existed (is that normal?)...

I think if more folks realized how blessedly *BOOM* an MB at the end of a SC COULD be (that should be a tongue twister), they would do them more often.

Three 6th lvls took out Sharp Eared Ropipi with MB'd skillchains in about one minute flat - you can't get much more mainstream than that (apologize for being such a lowly lvl'd BLM, but ya gotta start somewhere)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

They were astonished that such a thing even existed (is that normal?)...

lol. Unfortunately, it's not unusual.

Why SC+MB is so rare now.

Back in the days when both melee and magic accuracy sucked, it was important to make the most out of those meager and infrequent weapon skills--that meant using the MB window for big nukes. (Many melees even carried two or three different weapons to make sure they can open or close the SC wanted by BLMs.)

Magic damage bonus, magic accuracy bonus, plus the Skillchain effect itself really added up to be something impressive compared to free nuking and normal weapon swings.

These days, however, so much melee enhancements exist (job abilities like Hasso, food like sushi, and zillion of gear), many melee players can gain TP fast while doing great damage over time. SC ends up being unnecessary, given how well the physical weapon users do. In fact, making the good melee hold back until the not-so good players catch up in TP became viewed as detrimental to the party total damage output.

Not that nukers didn't receive any enhancements, but the melee side is so buffed up, SC+MB just isn't as useful in exp parties as before.

I wonder if the dev team knew that by making TP gain faster, the players would end up making fewer Skillchains instead of more. XD

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Thanks 'Itazura

I've noticed that down here at the lower levels when the Melees are not so good the SC+MB still can make a difference - Maybe its just that I'm more familiar with the FF premise than these other folks I was playing with, but there's been something like SC's in most of the last few FF's, so I knew to look for it. It mostly seems tho - that everyone has an idea of why they have the best combo for whatever it is they like to do - and will give you a /smirk if they think you are going with gimp equip or in a gimp direction (ok ok ok /NIN has advantages, but there is more to life than /NIN!!!!! - please? there has to be?).

Still a properly timed SC with MB at the end can make for an impressively quick kill - less personal glory (and it kind of requires communication for the timing, which answers my own question for the most part)

my .02 gil

[Karinya]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Back in the days when both melee and magic accuracy sucked, it was important to make the most out of those meager and infrequent weapon skills--that meant using the MB window for big nukes. (Many melees even carried two or three different weapons to make sure they can open or close the SC wanted by BLMs.)
Magic damage bonus, magic accuracy bonus, plus the Skillchain effect itself really added up to be something impressive compared to free nuking and normal weapon swings.

That, and you could confidently expect most fights against an exp mob to last over a minute. Getting #5 usually required saving some TP so you could SC+MB early and finish the fight *quicker than average* - which is why you so rarely saw #6, because what do you have left for it after spending your TP and MP on #5?

These days, however, so much melee enhancements exist (job abilities like Hasso, food like sushi, and zillion of gear), many melee players can gain TP fast while doing great damage over time. SC ends up being unnecessary, given how well the physical weapon users do. In fact, making the good melee hold back until the not-so good players catch up in TP became viewed as detrimental to the party total damage output.
Not that nukers didn't receive any enhancements, but the melee side is so buffed up, SC+MB just isn't as useful in exp parties as before.
I wonder if the dev team knew that by making TP gain faster, the players would end up making fewer Skillchains instead of more. XD

This is mostly right, but I think you're missing the true cause: level. Modern high-level parties *fight lower level mobs* than old-school high-level parties. That, more than sushi and hasso and maybe even skill merits, is what's responsible for the higher accuracy and damage and, especially, the near-zero resist rate of free nuking. Level matters. A lot. And SE has foolishly (IMO) chosen to allow relatively low level mobs give quite decent exp to high level parties, while higher level mobs that are quite a bit tougher to fight give only a bit more exp. Combine that with TAU's camps full of fast respawning wimps, and of course everyone's going to go there. 3 x 80 > 150. If the imps are worth 50 exp and the Uleguerand demons and ahrimans or Tavnazian rams and birds are worth 250, the latter start looking like a much more viable exp target.

If the mobs that fight like low toughs gave exp like low toughs, then TAU camps would become far less popular for merit.

Colibris, specifically, are poorly designed and exploitable, but that could be fixed by making them a little smarter (no more stealing food from people who already don't have any, or resetting TP on someone who just WS'd) and/or increasing their HP and/or physical defense. The overall issue in places like Caedarva or Mamool Ja Staging Point is that monsters are low level and weak overall, and melee benefit more from weak enemies than nukers do. (Tanks and dedicated healers become unnecessary altogether.)

Give players an incentive (in exp/hr terms) to fight something hard, and they'll rediscover the tactics and party setups that work on hard targets. It's the exploitation of wimps that put those jobs out of work to start with; reversing it will not only make the game more interesting, but fix a lot of the job balance issues too (maybe even multihit WS dominating all other WS).