Mainstream Mages.

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Omgwtfbbqkitten:

Well, everyone's definition of support can be different.

What you listed, in my opinion, are bonus.

My view on support is, without that <insert that support here>, the party will break or cannot function.

You point of Venom, Blind, Acid Bolts and Subtle Blow are valid. But that was not what I meant for support

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

My view on support is, without that <insert that support here>, the party will break or cannot function.

Gonna pick on you! If by function, one means "kill stuff for experience points," then:

Without damage output, party cannot function.

Without curing, party cannot function.

A party can function without Refresh.

A party can function without Enfeebs.

So, DD and healers are both support jobs! (Perversely, Red Mage is only support if it DDs or cast Cure!)

* * *

Heh. Sorry about that, but I think your definition is incomplete.

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

IfritnoItazura is so evil >.< .... j/k XD

Your 1st 4 statement are:
Without damage output, party cannot function.
Without curing, party cannot function.
A party can function without Refresh.
A party can function without Enfeebs.

But what is the logic of "So, DD and healers are both support jobs! (Perversely, Red Mage is only support if it DDs or cast Cure!)" based upon those 4 clauses you listed?

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Oh?

Unless I misunderstood the information posted on other various forums and the ffxiclopedia. SAM, BLU and DRK can all self skillchain according to the information I have read (no that I've actually DONE it mind you...) Have updates removed this ability?

[Aksannyi]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

DRK has never been able to, SAM and BLU still can though.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

DRK has never been able to, SAM and BLU still can though.

Thank you for the correction!

[Saren]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Thing is, SMNs don't think about the trials PUPs must endure to get the attatchments they need to make thier Automations operate so well, they don't have to funnel resources to healing the Avatars, that's for sure. BST and PUP, unlike DRG and SMN in regards to pets, are also consumable intensive jobs.

A SMN can just let Carby die and call him back at full power seconds later so long as the SMN has sufficient MP or geared to make carby preputation-free. Can't do that with LifedrinkerLars, the mats are more attainable now, but BSTs have to master a craft and farm a bunch if they want this pet often at all.

SMN has to be balanced against other mages and other pet jobs, too. BST, DRG and PUP have to be considered against DDs. The more you look into it, the more reasons you see why these jobs are made so different and how they're balanced against each other.

Of course smn has to be balanced with other pet jobs as well as with mages, I don't agree with the OPs ideas for smn for a lot of those reasons. I will go with you on pup though, I edited what I said about them out of my initial post because it was already long but it’s a huge amount of time and effort to get pup fully kitted out. What I would say about pup though is that all the attachments are purchasable and all the upgrades are rewards for levelling pup to a certain level.

Free perpetuation on Carbuncle is only available 50+ where I don’t think smn really has problems anymore. Balance wise I don’t think I can to really talk in detail about balancing pup with other jobs because I don’t have practical experience of it but smn certainly seems to have a lot of trade offs for the control, range of abilities and lack of a long resummon timer. Smn abilities are very resource expensive, getting the pets is hard work, and it's heavily limited by recast timers and buff durations.

My main beef with smn that I am fairly sure wouldn’t cause any imbalances to change a little is the lack of a second way to get at least Fenrir. A mini fork fight for Fenrir at around level 30 smn only and possibly another one for Diabolos that needed up to CoP 3-5 and smn 50-60 would mean that people who don’t necessarily want to level another job to 70+ can still get all their avatars at a reasonable level for the job. Diabolos doesn’t bother me so much because he’s not really that useful but a lot of the lower level bloodpacts that are actually useful come from Fenrir. Keeping the level of these fights above the levels that pup gets their frame upgrades would seem fair.

As for consumables, some of the bst ones are ridiculous and need to be made more accessible but I have always agreed with you when you have been talking about rng/cor/nin saying that choosing to level consumables based jobs means choosing to accept the expense.

I’ve just remembered from another thread that someone suggested a small to medium strength auto enspell on avatars which seems like a good idea. It’s only going to be an appreciable factor in your damage at low level but would make meleeing for TP and using rage blood pacts a little more rewarding at low level than they are at the moment without suddenly turning a summoned avatar into a powerful DD which they shouldn’t be.