Mainstream Mages.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Hmm. You may be right, Karinya; the changes in party-target level differences completely slipped my mind. The only caveat is that for as long as I can remember, many people have advocated VT over IT as the ideal exp/hour targets.

Not so sure about chain #5 being the stopping point due to SC+MB use. Many times, what I saw was lacking enough MP to safely proceed.

Perhaps S-E should change the Sanction/Sigil's exp bonus to be based on level difference between party and the monster? Even with that, though, I'm not sure it would bring back the BLM, and not sure what if anything it can do for the SMN.

To be honest, I don't really want to return to the old tactic of "Chain #5 then full rest". Would be nice to have a solution which allows great mid-level parties to make decent exp/hour, chaining to #10 ~ #15 based on prey availability, with each fight lasting long enough for BLM to rest some MP to allow for one or two SC+MB with the highest tier nuke for the level.

Aside from level-dependent exp bonus, what do you think of a hMP+ spell for WHM? Nerfing Utusemi: Ichi down to two copy images on /NIN may also make WHM's higher tier Regen more attractive, too, as well as increase the value of all back line jobs with cures slightly.

* * *

Yes, yes, and S-E needs to do something about SMN, of course.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Well, the way I see it, we need BLMs (and just speaking of them for now, though other mages do need some help, my WHM gets no love) to be able to conserve MP better.

Make Conserve MP proc more, or add another tier to it that conserves a greater percentage of MP. This has probably been said, but it's a good solution. It can work.

Not really sure I have many ideas, but I'll tell you that even RDM nukes are POWERFUL under the magic burst. I've bursted double Darkness with more than 1k on RDM, and that's hella impressive, even with the MAB+ and INT gear stacked on, I never expected to hit those numbers on RDM, and the mobs weren't just EP, either. Think they were conning Tough. So it's not that MB isn't powerful enough - because it is - it's just that melee don't want to be bothered. A few of my friends are still into doing the MBs, but it's true most melee don't even want to be bothered, or even know what SC + MB is.

If it weren't for freaking MP cost, mobs would be decimated with BLMs in parties. And due to the trend in killing quickly and efficiently, I can certainly see why BLMs don't get invites. BLMs need to bring WHM friends who can Devotion them. XD But then that's 2 slots gone to a mage and no Refresh ... >.<

It sucks, but I see exactly why BLMs get no love in xp. WHM's a different story (because when I have a BRD, I can keep going just as well as any RDM), but ... poor BLMs. So needed in endgame, shunned in xp. ; ;

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Wow - I can't begin to tell you how helpfull this is being to me - in regards to the SC+MB...

What about a DRK and BLM? either duo or operating as a mini-unit within a larger party - the DRK can selfchain so there is only a duo co-ordination requirement, and if your letting off something that requires timing (AM's), once you learn the right point, you could drop the thing nearly every-time the DRK uses multiple WS's, in fact if the DRK is fast enough, you could just drop the AM and when he sees the popup in the log, he starts his chain....

I dunno, it just seems like from what Im reading on here, there's no need to really learn how these jobs really fit together beyond certain Cookie cutter - and I don't mean that in any derogatory fashion, I just mean sameness - way. The Reikei have always been tremendously powerful, and I'm wondering if they even still have their uses in the high level or end game gambits.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for cool animations, who knows.

[Mhurron]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

the DRK can selfchain

Oh?

[Aksannyi]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Oh?

Quoted for ... something. I, too, wish to respond in such a manner. XD

[NicasinXS]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I like your post Onionsoldier..

Elemental: I think that elemental magic is already sufficient in blms. There are already plenty of ways to buff it up through elemental+ gear that put the power above 300 while not taking up the slots needed to keep you Int above 100 which is where I like to have it. If there was a useable item that would increase elemental potency that could backfire I would not use it, would screw with my solo act and make blms less welcome in a regular meripo imo. Spirit lanterns are fairly easy to get anyways and give a fairly good boost for a usable toy like that. SE will probably release a strap that further enhances elemental. I hope anyways.

Enfeeble: I think its proper to make a rdm work for a bio that measures up to the blms since they are a kite killing class, we don't really want to just hand them the uberness now do we?

Break would be very nice..

I like the idea for confuse for maybe dancers or bards.

Enhancing: Tier 2 enspells would be awesome.

Red mages can already get regen II if they /sch. /sch is a very good sub for rdm by the way, no divine seal, no elemental seal, but the boost you get from dark arts and light arts pretty much covers those bases plus you get to have regen II drain and I think aspir too.

I think alot of the problem with blms in meripo parties is that many people don't play blm very well. conserving mp should be up to the caster to cast more wisely then expect the MP conserve to kick in more often. For instance meripo in Mamool Ja is awesome with a blm in the party. You really only need to get like 1 nuke off a fight to make a good difference and crowd control there is a synch there with blm. I guess it is true though that no matter how much you buff a blm fighters would rather have a bard there instead, plus blms are mostly so usefull with a rdm next to them in that situation. Theres almost always a blm meripo party going on anyways and solo blm is the easiest of all for me. Well I only have a blm rdm 75 so what do I know aye!?

I would like to see tier 5 regular nukes from summoners, tha'd be cool.

Even though I don't think blms need it, I woulndn't mind having more MP conserve then I already have.

I think your ideas are pretty nice!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

For a while now I have been contemplating what SE could do to get magic-users back into the mainstream. I have noticed a trend where many white and black magic users, regardless if they are BLM, PLD, WHM, or DRK, have fallen out of favor and been replaced with XXX/NIN.

Here's a thought, don't have a job as your "one and only." I learned the hard lesson at endgame when I got there as BRD and it was the extreme opposite of the lesson most people learned. I knew that back when I did it, if I had any other job save for RDM at 75 that no one would want me as anything but the BRD. And if I took RDM all the way, I had painted myself into a corner at endgame as a permanent refresher.

That's the extreme opposite, its counterpart being the job that never gets attention. How much need is there for my BST in EXP or even in endgame. The latter is something SE still hasn't solved for that job. How many problems do BLMs have and endgame. They're welcomed with open arms last I checked and pretty secure on EXP once they hit the prime manaburn level. They are only just forced to solo - not unlike BST, who has always been forced into it, even PUP has been rescued from this fate thanks to /DNC - but BLM has it made in the shade otherwise.

Same with WHM. They're not total lepers when it comes to EXP and the prime burn levels and they get a lot of love elsewhere. Not to mention that there's campaign for PLD and DRK to cap thier EXP and gain merits from now.

Campaign actually solves quite a bit of the invite issues. So long as you've capped your weapons or other skills, you can rest easy here for EXP. Its not as fast as merits, but the EXP gain is faster than waiting around Whitegate.

Your "solutions" are problematic the way most player-invented solutions are - you're asking for exclusives to be taken from a main job or subjob and given to another main job. You're asking other jobs to give up what makes them unique as a means of improving your job. So its just benefits you and dimishes othe roles, that's an unfair and unbalanced approach.

Just as an example, Regen II - its not available under any other subjob level but SCH. For the main healer RDM that doesn't need to worry about status cures, I'd say this is a rather viable option open to them, not only that, but Light Arts will decrease spell costs and Dark Arts would raise a RDM's Dark Magic skill. There are trade-offs, but that's the case with the subjob system in general.

When the time comes for changes, SE generally considers this. Lets just use pet jobs as an example, they've been some of the most problematic of all the jobs to balance, after all. In fact, let's look at a much more sensitive area of these jobs - healing and HP recovery.

DRG/Mage - Most cost effective pet healer in the game, free status cures when weaponskills are performed
Summoner - Carby can cure and Leviathan AoE cure, SMN also gains protective magics like Phalanx, Stoneskin and Blink and other stat boosts
Puppetmaster - The Automation ost potent healer pet, capable of high tier regens and cures, not Aoe Cures, not status cures and can also be a capable and stronger nuker than DRG's wyvern pet.
Beastmaster - BST has none of this unless he charms a Dhamel, but can heal his pet with and command his jug pets to Snarl, transferring all enmity from to the pet in a pinch, which can serve as a form or PT support, too. Additionally, with pets tanking in the stead of a beastmaster, they can just sub mage to protect themselves further. With much dicipline, its pretty simple to deal with most situations.

But what have I heard from SMNs lately?

"Can I prz has what PUP has, SE?"

I don't think SE doesn't want to fix SMN, I just think they're trying to puzzle out a way to do it that doesn't take away from how PUP, BST or DRG do things.

BLM got some taste of turnabout with ToA. BLMs got just as arrogant as RNGs once were and ToA camps took them down a few pets. BLMs and RNGs would snot on every other DD back in the RoZ/CoP day because they were "needed" while a DRG, MNK or WAR was not "needed" for EXP and endgame. Well, neither are needed for EXP now, endgame is another matter.

We also have to keep in mind - and this is something we can't really fault SE for - that players have a tendancy to get sucked into trends and forget about other things. It gets really annoying when you have an HNM leader who knows a cookie-cutter strategy and learns that, but doesn't learn anything about jobs he's not familar with. A leader should know CORs are better for mages and BRDs better for melee PTs at high level, they should know that SMN, RDM and SCH are there for more than just playing a cure bucket. They should know they need RNGs for Shadowbind in some strategies, they should know which jobs and weapontypes that can produce the skillchains they want the mages to burst on. They should also realize that your tanking options don't end with Paladin and Ninja.

They just have this nasty habit of turning thier damn brains off and I think the game is designed in a way that more knowledgable players won't do that. SE intentionally individualizes jobs and equipment for this reason.

BLM, WHM, PLD and DRK all still have a place in the game and a means of getting worthwhile EXP. Skillchains still happen where they're most needed.

[Nuriko]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Same with WHM. They're not total lepers when it comes to EXP and the prime burn levels and they get a lot of love elsewhere. Not to mention that there's campaign for PLD and DRK to cap thier EXP and gain merits from now.

Actually, Campaign works well for WHM too, if you gear yourself DD-ish and skill up your weapons - I'm matching XP numbers with melee on my WHM75/BLM (or RDM if I take some time to prepare). Of course, Hexa Strike helps a great deal in getting good damage numbers, and some of your XP is still likely to come from healing (especially healing yourself if you go try to solo something, but that just gives you another XP source, tanking).

Actually, the most limiting thing about XPing in Campaign is likely to be the per-minute cap once you get rolling in this manner. Just pick up those evaluations every 5 days if you take this route.

[eticket109]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more. They made it sound like they want RDM to melee more.

[Saren]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I know whm hasn't been talked about that much but I have to say that Repose and /sch have made it much easier to keep up with a rdm. I had fun last night being the crowd control for my party against imps. I know they are weak to light but landing repose consistently on mobs 15+ levels higher than me was just great fun.

I mean sure I still need refresh to keep up but /sch is definitely a really nice sub for long chains and the added flexibility you get from Penury/Celerity is really nice. Divine Seal + Celerity + curaga gives you an AoE 200-250 hp cure for 30mp.

I can't go with you on Tier 2 Avatars. Why have them? At 70+ smn doesn't really seem to need a lot of help.

When the time comes for changes, SE generally considers this. Lets just use pet jobs as an example, they've been some of the most problematic of all the jobs to balance, after all. In fact, let's look at a much more sensitive area of these jobs - healing and HP recovery.

DRG/Mage - Most cost effective pet healer in the game, free status cures when weaponskills are performed
Summoner - Carby can cure and Leviathan AoE cure, SMN also gains protective magics like Phalanx, Stoneskin and Blink and other stat boosts
Puppetmaster - The Automation ost potent healer pet, capable of high tier regens and cures, not Aoe Cures, not status cures and can also be a capable and stronger nuker than DRG's wyvern pet.
Beastmaster - BST has none of this unless he charms a Dhamel, but can heal his pet with and command his jug pets to Snarl, transferring all enmity from to the pet in a pinch, which can serve as a form or PT support, too. Additionally, with pets tanking in the stead of a beastmaster, they can just sub mage to protect themselves further. With much dicipline, its pretty simple to deal with most situations.

But what have I heard from SMNs lately?

"Can I prz has what PUP has, SE?"

I don't think SE doesn't want to fix SMN, I just think they're trying to puzzle out a way to do it that doesn't take away from how PUP, BST or DRG do things.

I don't agree with this or rather don't really agree with the relevance. It's not the healing abilities where the lack of balance is a problem.

Curing:

When are you ever going to use whispering wind over curaga as smn? You get curaga first and it's a lot more efficient than whispering wind when you hit level 36. Spring Water I can see being situationally more useful but it's still much slower than tossing out a curaga which can be a big disadvantage.

Healing Ruby is o.k but I the only time I had Carbuncle out in parties is if I was casting Shining Ruby which negates using healing ruby and at later levels it's a big waste of a ward timer.


Buffs:

Smn has some really nice buffs but at the moment if you don't have Fenrir you have junk buffs all the way up to 46. That's too late. Suggested changes,

Fenrir - make him obtaininble through a solo capped fight, higher level than the other mini fork fights (30-40) and with the pre-requisite that you have to have beaten all the other mini fork fights. He just gives too many of the good party buffs available to smn to make him that hard to get. That's someone elses idea but I can't remember whose.

Aerial Armor - make this stack with Utsusemi, I don't get why it doesn't honestly. This would be a nice buff for low level, without being overpowered, if it did when people are still learning to tank and even nin main doesn't have access to utsusemi:ni yet.

Damage:

I can't talk about this so much because only level 40. What I would say is that up to level 40 I couldn't find an offensive BP that was really decent in terms of damage/mp and time ratios. Megalith throw was doing a maximum of about 290 damage maximum in CN but was costing me about 130-150 mp to summon, let Titan TP (i.e hit for single digit to low teens damage) so he didn't wuff the attack and then the BP cost itself. I don't mind the amount of damage so much really, it's near enmity free, smn is a hybrid job etc etc but the amount of time you can't rest for to get the accuracy of the BP up is annoying.

No real fix suggestions for this one because a huge overhaul of smn isn't really practical and SE are on a role with good adjustments recently so hopefully they will come up with something better than I could.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more.

Source?

[Celeal]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

In regards to EnSpells, SE has already stated they are planning to improve them or add more. They made it sound like they want RDM to melee more.

If this is true, I think it is because the RDM (player) voices it, not S-E

For putting mages back to mainstream:

I think one of the problem is, most DD jobs can only do one thing efficiently: DD (in general).

This really limits number of ways how a party can be build, and the mages' role within a party.

Mages, like a SMN, RDM, SCH... can a output damage. In reverse, DD, like MNK, RNG... cannot main heal, cannot support, etc. The result: if the job is able to fill-in the support role, it is forced to do support (otherwise not welcome to party).

Can a BLM/WHM main heal for a party? Can a PUP or BLU main heal the party? Or, do they willing to main heal?

I know it is not fair, but what can we do about it?

[eticket109]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Source?

A Japanese publication called Online D did an interview with FFXI developers during coverage of WotG. SE gave info on upcoming plans for FFXI jobs. It was translated and posted by Elmer on BG.

Red Mage
Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won:t have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

I trust his info on it as he's posted and translated FFXI guides and books from Japan quite a bit in the past.

[Callisto]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

Red Mage
Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won:t have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

As happy as that quote makes me...um, B Skill = "prowess" when BLU gets A- and the SP weaponskills, while RDM gets...Shining Blade? Thanks, S-E. Really.

Here's a thought, don't have a job as your "one and only." I learned the hard lesson at endgame when I got there as BRD and it was the extreme opposite of the lesson most people learned. I knew that back when I did it, if I had any other job save for RDM at 75 that no one would want me as anything but the BRD. And if I took RDM all the way, I had painted myself into a corner at endgame as a permanent refresher.

This is the single best advice I can see, although that isn't exactly a good thing. Granted I'm going to be a refresher either way, but at least I can mix it up here and there. It's nice to be diverse, as really I can fit into any invite I get, be it TP Burn, Manaburn, or whatever.

However, for those with BLM leveled, it's about the complete opposite. Noone wants them for XP, however they are one of the most sought after jobs for endgame fights(which really sucks for them, more buffer loss and less chances to gain it back). Almost everyone I know who has 3-4 75's leveled with BLM being one of them gets asked to use their BLM the majority of the time.

I also think Aksannyi's idea of greater Convserve MP proc rates would go a long way, possibly adding another tier of the job trait exclusively for BLM.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Mainstream Mages.

I don't agree with this or rather don't really agree with the relevance. It's not the healing abilities where the lack of balance is a problem.

Its relevant because the OPs suggestions take away from other existing jobs in order to enhance thier own. Since the PUP White/Black head attachment update, SMNs have been begging for the healing capability that PUPs now have.

Thing is, SMNs don't think about the trials PUPs must endure to get the attatchments they need to make thier Automations operate so well, they don't have to funnel resources to healing the Avatars, that's for sure. BST and PUP, unlike DRG and SMN in regards to pets, are also consumable intensive jobs.

A SMN can just let Carby die and call him back at full power seconds later so long as the SMN has sufficient MP or geared to make carby preputation-free. Can't do that with LifedrinkerLars, the mats are more attainable now, but BSTs have to master a craft and farm a bunch if they want this pet often at all.

SMN has to be balanced against other mages and other pet jobs, too. BST, DRG and PUP have to be considered against DDs. The more you look into it, the more reasons you see why these jobs are made so different and how they're balanced against each other.

Mages, like a SMN, RDM, SCH... can a output damage. In reverse, DD, like MNK, RNG... cannot main heal, cannot support, etc.

As a RNG I take exception to that comment in regards to support.

RNG has Venom, Blind and Acid Bolts, along wih Demon Arrows and to a lesser extent Spartan Bullets, to add enfeebling, increase party melee damage and reduce the damage people take. Some of these things stack with enfeebles such as Dia or Bio. I've actively used such things in PTs and endgame areas such Dynamis and Limbus to help support faster kills. And I still get to deal damage all the while.

(waits for THF/DRK/WAR cop-out, who aren't the premeire marksmen of the game)

MNK has had Subtle Blow for a while and can merit thier Chi Blast to inhibit mob TP gain. Is this not support? I think it is.