If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

[Raydeus]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

There's a big difference between a fantasy world and being silly. There is no logical excuse for changing clothes in the middle of a fight.

Hehhh, I'm sorry but Kamen Rider disagrees with you.

HENSHIN!


There's no reason to lose target on someone that swaps gear though, gear changing blinking needs to go.

[Armando]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

tl;dr rest of thread

My main gripes are the effects from the game (how they stop you from moving and delay autoattack even when they're instantaneous) and how un-multi-target-friendly it is. Slightly unrelated but I also hate how inaccurate the chat log is and its dependency on the action's animation.

Also, the SC system is now dead, and stringing long SCs together has ALWAYS been dead. 99% of players (yes, made up number) don't even know all SCs increase in power the more you perform, not just Lv.3's.

[Raydeus]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

I'm still of the idea of making Overkill dmg from a sc+mb give a % xp bonus. It would require skill and also encourage team work while giving you tangible benefits on the xp deparment.

Although I'm sure only JP would be able to take full advantage of something like that. NA would just complain and go back to burning in any shape or from since it would require so much teamwork.

[Ziero]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Your point? I'm saying you wouldn't REPEAT the leveling grind. Big difference between that and leveling at all.

It would not remove any leveling from the game because you would still have to level up each job you wanted to play. And if your character stayed 75 while leveling that job, then you would stay in the *same* spots leveling every job from 1-75. They had this system in FFT and you would have to level every job on it's own, independent of your characters level.

Exactly! It would force people to either dress ahead or pay the consequences. If you weren't designed to tank, you don't magically start tanking. It would add depth to the game, not remove it.

No. It would penalize people who come prepared for any situation already instead of taking one piece of gear and calling it a day. That would be simplifying the game, not adding depth. People *already* just take that one piece of gear they need regardless of the situation so it wouldn't affect them. It *would* affect the person who thinks ahead and brings his Att/Acc gear, his haste gear, his Def gear and changes said items depending on the mob he is fighting in the situation he is in.

There's a big difference between a fantasy world and being silly. There is no logical excuse for changing clothes in the middle of a fight.

And there's no logical reason for being able to carry 60 beds everywhere you went, but you can. And there's no logical reason for a 9' tall shaved ape-man to be able to give a 3' munchkin the pants he was just wearing and have them fit like a glove, but you can. Again, I suggest dropping this point, as it has no basis in this game.

Not really. And bots aren't always game breaking, either. About all that would allow you to make are skillup bots and some EXTREMELY limited farming bots.

It's a bot.

Not at all. The peak would just be moved from who has the largest gobby bag to who has the most well thought out gear setup in addition to their talents. Instead of just throwing more INT+ at some spells and MND+ at others, you would actually have to THINK about your equipment to balance it and be effective.
Your idea is like saying we should be able to switch jobs on the fly with no penalty, so that RDM can choose which mage sub would be the best for a given spell by it's bonuses, and that anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't care about their 'peak'.

Peak would be *lowered* if you were forced to stick with a single set of gear. And it wouldn't make people 'think' about their gear set ups, it would make people buy a single piece and use it for everything, making them lazy. People who use gear swaps *do* think about which gear is best for what situations, that's why they don't keep Int gear on when they cast Paralyze, or keep their -def stuff on when they're getting hit. They change gear to maximize their potential in the current situation which *constantly* changes. And changing jobs on the fly is game breaking because it gives unlimited access to *abilities* not because it affects certain stats.

Yes, for coming up with ideas. Not just for bashing them. If you don't like the aim of the thread, feel free to go start your own, or just go away.
If you want to bitch about other peoples' ideas, go elsewhere. This is not the place for it.

The only one bitching here is you. I am not flaming, insulting or putting down anyone by disagreeing with their ideas and pointing out why they are not improvements or why they would not work. You of all people should know that people have every right to constructively post their opinion of a topic, whether they agree with people or not, freely and openly. When someone posts an idea or concept that sounds good to me, I will agree and support it, when they post an idea that seems 'not-so-good' I will point out *why* I feel it wouldn't work in a fair and constructive way. That is the whole point of a discussion. If you wanted a place where you could just list ideas without anyone disagreeing with you, then maybe you should find somewhere else to go.

I agree that having job and subjob interact more, yielding new traits or even abilities, would rock. It'd be a helpful tool in making subs balance more.
It would also be nice if subbed skills didn't suck so much; heck, it'd be nice if C skills didn't suck so much in full-party situations after 25. I could also see making it so that if your main and sub share a skill and your subjob's skill cap type is higher than your main's skill cap type, then your cap becomes the average of your main's cap and what your sub's cap would be at your main's level, rounded down. For example, a RDM75/PLD37 would have a Sword skill cap of 263, and a PUP75/MNK37 would have a H2H skill cap of 250. (And yes, for the record I love what they did with SCH's Light Arts and Dark Arts.)

This is a good idea. Subbing Mnk to Thf or War should boost up my H2H skills. Not to A ranked lvls, but at least a bit. This would be great for all mages as well, as those lower ranked skills would be that much more useful.

I always had a few issues with the battle system. One was back when I played a DD job. I used to have a clear advantage gear wise over my counterpart with the same job. Yet they were always close to me in the damage output.
Another problem is the strength of mobs vs the player. If I am 75 with a zillion hours invested into getting gear, skills in eva, parry as well as merits. Should I really have to struggle against EP and D/C mobs?

I've noticed the first thing as well, but in the end that just may be our eyes playing tricks with us. Only a parse could actually tell how much our gear affects our abilities.

And I'll sort of agree with the second part, but many ToAU mobs can be soloed as DCs nowadays. Not by all jobs, but by quite a few.

*snip*

I doubt this game could ever have a combat system ever as in depth as an Action-RPG and most certainly not a Fighting game. At best it could be close to PSU, where you had free control to swing your weapons, but the size of the weapon determined how fast you could repeatedly swing. Meaning while you could whittle away with a dagger at high speeds, a Great Sword would take longer to swing. However, this would just remove the Auto-Attack function for a Manual Attack system in the same vein. But maybe it would be nice to at least have the option of switching back and forth.

And by the SotC reference (great game btw) I could only infer that you mean to attack certain monsters at specific weak points, and using the area around you to reach those points. I will admit, that while it might never be as in-depth as SotC was, it would be cool if there was a super giant boss that you'd have to climb up rocks and drop onto it's back to fight. But that would be one fairly specific...and incredibly huge, monster.

And the Junctioning idea sounds cool too, though it would need a lot of work. It could even be the basis for a new job concept...

I also like the Meriting Armor idea, but it would have to be either very limited in use, or exceptionally rare. As that type of gear could potentially replace almost everything on the market...effectively crippling said market.

But the last idea is something I do not like. For the most part, weapon choices not only represent the job, they're built around the jobs abilities. And being able to wield any type of weapon regardless of job would be both odd (Thf with a GSword) and highly broken (Thf with a Gsword). And as much as I'd love to try an odd combination of job and weapon (Thf with a Gsword), I can honestly say it would only serve to unbalance the game.

The only real 'improvements' I could think to make for this game's battle system is increased abilities, a customizable JSE merit tree system, enhanced subjob influence, via increase of specific stats or Subjob-specific ability boosts and enhanced terrain influence on a fight.

[Malacite]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

tl;dr rest of thread

My main gripes are the effects from the game (how they stop you from moving and delay autoattack even when they're instantaneous) and how un-multi-target-friendly it is. Slightly unrelated but I also hate how inaccurate the chat log is and its dependency on the action's animation.

Also, the SC system is now dead, and stringing long SCs together has ALWAYS been dead. 99% of players (yes, made up number) don't even know all SCs increase in power the more you perform, not just Lv.3's.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Skillchain

Maximum Damage Potential
Skillchain Level

2 Skills 3 Skills 4 Skills 5 Skills 6 Skills
Level 1 50% 60% 70% 80% 90%
Level 2 60% 75% 100% 125% 150%
Level 3 100% 150% 175% 200% 225%



EDIT: Stupid wiki thing messed up when I tried to copy/paste it... it showed up properly in my post menu, but after I actually posted it the chart format went away...

[Coinspinner]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

I really like the FFX-style "Overkill" idea. Maybe have it increase drop rate too, that's something I'd like to feel I have even a teensy bit of control over. And I second the obnoxiousness of this game's visual effects, I'm sick of being locked in place because there's an animation playing on me.

What I want is whatever buffs or additions it would take to resurrect Skillchain and Magic Burst and put my BLM back in an old-fashioned party. I don't think it's not worth resurrecting it by nerfing burn parties, except for nerfs by comparison to awesome new traditional PT exp.

Skillchain should be about teamwork within the party, not about inviting the "right" people/weapons because forming the wrong element wastes the effort and using weak WS to form the right element is just as bad or worse.

Magic Burst... improves the efficiency of one spell the BLM would have cast anyway. The bonus could stand to be improved IMO, maybe to 60%, as I always thought of the spells we cast to be more analogous to the auto-attack damage of a melee rather than their WS.

You need mobs that can sustain that damage to make it worth using at all. But if it's that annoying to kill them, there'd need to be an exp bonus for defeating them. Then lump in Sanction/Sigil benefits. It might work.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Just let me Jump up and down when I feel like it and I'm fine.

[Armando]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Skillchain

Maximum Damage Potential
Skillchain Level

2 Skills 3 Skills 4 Skills 5 Skills 6 Skills
Level 1 50% 60% 70% 80% 90%
Level 2 60% 75% 100% 125% 150%
Level 3 100% 150% 175% 200% 225%

Lol, *I'm* the one that tested and put that in the Wiki in the first place, and that was well over a year ago I think. But I can still ask anyone and they won't know.

2. NO DELAY i repeat NO DELAY on attack. YOU MUST WAIT LONGER TO PERFORM THIS ACTION. I don't think so lmfao. In RL if someone swings a sword at you and you just got done fighting, that weapon is comming right back out in a heart beat. Nothing pisses me off more moving mob to mob and cannot continuously attack.

No. The delay is necessary. I'll tell you why: a long time ago, there was a glitch in which you could disengage from a mob, and you'd attack immediately after re-engaging. This made two-handed weapons stupidly broken since they'd be attacking every 3 secs or so as opposed to the ~8 second wait most two-handers have.

As for weapons, I'd speed up 2 handed weapons and ditch Scythe entirely as it's a farming tool and not an actual weapon tyvm SE.

Don't be so picky. Scythes are more of a weapon than the Great Swords in this game. You could conceivably kill someone with a scythe. S-E's great swords would weigh in excess of 50 lbs and would be completely unwieldy even if you could somehow muster up the strength to lift them in the first place. And I'd like to point out that kunai are also farming tools, patas in this game look nothing like real patas, and they along with katars should do piercing damage. And how can a melee miss a wall?

You need a certain degree of suspension of disbelief for weapons and magic in fantasy games.

By the way.

And there's no logical reason for being able to carry 60 beds everywhere you went, but you can. And there's no logical reason for a 9' tall shaved ape-man to be able to give a 3' munchkin the pants he was just wearing and have them fit like a glove, but you can. Again, I suggest dropping this point, as it has no basis in this game.

This is a horribly weak argument. Being able to carry 60 beds is a necessary consequence of game design, otherwise you have a stupidly convoluted and/or imposing system for how much you can carry. If I'm carrying my bed, I can't carry anything else? Fuck that. Likewise, if we couldn't freely trade gear across races, we'd have an equally restrictive and stupid system.

Feba is right. There's not much of a conceivable reason why anyone would be able to change their entire equipment in a split second in the middle of a fight. How that would affect gameplay depth is another issue entirely, but he has a point.

Peak would be *lowered* if you were forced to stick with a single set of gear. Etc. etc.

IF we could magically change FFXI so that we could no longer efficiently change gears mid-fight, I'd like to think that the stats on our gear would've had a lot more thought put into it and most of it would need to be adjusted. Extreme example: Hecatomb gear. If you can no longer swap it in JUST for WS, who the hell is going to wear that? No one, that's who.

And now for something completely different:

You know what would make SCs and MBs a lot more useful? Extending the MB window and permanently lowering the mob's resistance to the SC element(s) even past the MB window until a different SC is performed. And I too wish we could MB elemental WS. They're so weak right now. And I wish we could AoE SC using AoE WS.

[Raydeus]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

And how can a melee miss a wall?

They close their eyes every time and say "ei!" while they swing.

[Pteryx]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

No. The delay is necessary. I'll tell you why: a long time ago, there was a glitch in which you could disengage from a mob, and you'd attack immediately after re-engaging. This made two-handed weapons stupidly broken since they'd be attacking every 3 secs or so as opposed to the ~8 second wait most two-handers have.

It didn't have to be implemented quite that way, though. Just have the delay continue to be tracked even after you disengage, so when you engage something new too soon, you're still waiting for your weapon's delay to tick down before you actually swing again. Just as impossible to exploit, but without the interface aggravation. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Kunai at least make sense as a potential weapon though.

A Scythe does not. It's far too impractical to be used in a real fight. Only a rube who deserves to die is gonna get hit by one of those. And SE got greatswords right for the most part, save for the delay.

Claymores are freaking huge man, but they're not the slow and heavy things that TV, Movies and Fantasy make them out to be. Actually, you can swing a Great Katana quite fast...

Your avg. 2 handed sword wouldn't weigh more than 8-12 lbstops. Same goes for plate. Fact is that no one would have faught using all that heavy gear back in the middle ages if it really was that heavy.

You had to be strong for sure, but they're far from the slow, cumbersome POS most ppl think they are. When I read that their weapons & armor guy actually researched everything (including stances) I did a double-take.

I mean, was he drunk? WHY DO WE ELVAAN SWING OUR SPEARS?!

orz

[Rain_Blade]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Throw in a yoyo as a weapon and I'll come back to the game lol

[Coinspinner]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

And I wish we could AoE SC using AoE WS.

I was horribly disappointed when I found that didn't work. Earth Crusher to Spinning Scythe to Stonega was gonna make such an awesome screenshot.

Your avg. 2 handed sword wouldn't weigh more than 8-12 lbstops. Same goes for plate. Fact is that no one would have faught using all that heavy gear back in the middle ages if it really was that heavy.
You had to be strong for sure, but they're far from the slow, cumbersome POS most ppl think they are. When I read that their weapons & armor guy actually researched everything (including stances) I did a double-take.
I mean, was he drunk? WHY DO WE ELVAAN SWING OUR SPEARS?!
orz

Real world two-handers yeah. FFXI two-handers should weigh far more, as they are much wider and thicker than real life weapons. Same goes for a lot of one-handed swords too. It's the same as your fighting stances, realism was set aside for coolness.

[Armando]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Real world two-handers yeah. FFXI two-handers should weigh far more, as they are much wider and thicker than real life weapons. Same goes for a lot of one-handed swords too. It's the same as your fighting stances, realism was set aside for coolness.

What he said. FFXI's two-handers have blades with at least 3-4 times the width and twice the average thickness of a real two-handed sword. We have the recipes, we know they're made of steel and not a fictional, hard, ultralightweight material. So the blades of these swords have at least 6 times the weight of a real two-handed sword. Worse, the extra weight is all in the blade, guess what that does to the weapon's center of balance?

And then we've got a Great Sword with the exact same Claymore model as the lower level ones, but made out of Darksteel, which according to in-game NPCs is harder, yet heavier than steel. FF two-handed swords are far more unwieldy than any scythe. Of course, that's what suspension of disbelief is for. If it looks good, well, why the hell not? Besides, scythes are already in plenty of RPGs. Magus wouldn't look nearly as cool without his scythe.

[Raydeus]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

About 2 handed weapons, you guys are forgetting most of the weight in a weapon is in the handle and only part of the blade, it makes them easier to handle and gives them stability.

The same way weight is distributed along the body of a gun to reduce recoil a Claymore type of sword (among others) is designed and tweaked for performance. It isn't just a plain sheet with the same weight all over it.

If it wasn't that way you'd lose balance and get pulled forward on every swing, do you really think knights and Samurais would've survived much with such kinds of weapons?

A 40kg GS isn't as farfetched if weight is properly distributed (and you have the required muscles), just dont expect to swing it with one hand Cloud style.