Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Saren]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

WHM: Can heal meleeburns... until they run out of MP and the melees throw a hissyfit over having to break chain. Gets invited anyway, but only due to RDM scarcity.

Uhm.....just wanted to say that I heal TP burns fine without downtime thanks.

The longest chain I've had is 96 (yes I know people make chain 900+ so it's not stellar but it is respectable) and the reason that chain broke was because one of the DDs DCed for a minute not because I was struggling for mp.

That was a one bard party, I didn't have full time ballad and I was sitting at full charge on sublimation for long periods of time because I wasn't missing enough mp to use it often. Whm can perform perfectly well in TP burns so long as the DDs are all decent.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

so long as the DDs are all decent.

Biggest problem I've had, honestly. The uber-1337 guys who pull tons of hate and get their faces raped are what caused me to have no MP on WHM. It's not worth the hassle, so I merit on RDM.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

WHM: Can heal meleeburns... until they run out of MP and the melees throw a hissyfit over having to break chain. Gets invited anyway, but only due to RDM scarcity.

A good party wouldn't have the whm run out of mp...All the whm would really need to do is regen/haste. and every 30 mins buffs

THF: Really isn't built for it; can fill a space if nothing else is available, but can't stage-pull, can't SA if the mob doesn't hold still, can't TA if the melees don't hold still (or are so chickenshit that they dodge), doesn't do much damage without its spike damage tools, and Accomplice and Collaborator are pointless in a situation where hate is supposed to bounce in the first place.

Uh what? A good thief would know how to SA/TA in a melee burn. Its really not that hard w/o a 'tank'. With haste gear and weapons like heart snatcher, justice sword, or blau, damage can be on par with the average DD.

RDM: Meleeburns great. The only real meleeburn healer out there. Unfortunately, this comes at the expense of being warped into a pure healer and haster; we can't really debuff beyond Dia at a meleeburn pace.

Screw that. I run out of mp faster with DD burns on rdm than whm. Rdm/nin pulling onry.

[Ziero]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

We complain because the quality of players has lowered as a direct result. These mobs are too easy to hit, take too much damage and give too much EXP for how weak they are.

The quality of players has NOT changed. At all. People suck now just as much as they always have.

Additionally, SE made the mistake of nerfing RNG so hard to discourage thier ability to burn. To turn around and then give everyone the ability to burn makes that decisions hypocritical at best.
If burns are bad, then they are bad for everyone. If burns are not bad, instead of all these incrimental readjustments over the course of three years, why didn't they leave RNG the way it was. If you're going to tell me its because they were too powerful at endgame, I'll be happy to direct you to all the overpowered, reptitive and broken tactics that are currently popular.

Kraken Club + Blood Weapon for example.

The fact that burns are allowed is not consistant with the nerfs SE made to RNG. RNGs were nerfed in RoZ and CoP camps because arrowburns would decimate any merit camp at that time and leave other PTs settling for scraps.

SE nerfed Rng because they were dropping IT+++ mobs in 30 seconds or less. Things no other melee could hit, Rng were bringing in double digit chains. And they were the only melee Job who could do that. Rng weren't just decimating Merit mobs, they were decimating every mob from 30 onward.

And if you're going to try and tell me that Drk's are more overpowered now then Rng were back then, then you're nuts. When you have one job who's only broken when they combine a 40 million gil item with their 2 hour and another job who was consistently doing over the top damage, even when using cheap gear, then you're sort of missing the point.

Somehow, that's okay now just because everyone can do it, yet it was "bad" when MNK, WAR, RNG and BLM did it exclusively and BLM and RNG got nerfs for it. Its is not consistant.

Honestly, I think this has nothing to do with fairness to other jobs. SE fucked up on past nerfs and on the creation of ToA camps. Its always overkill or lowball with the RoZ/ToA guys. The FFXI/CoP/WotG seems to always bring balanced camps with reasonably challenging mobs.

If you think the fact that in the past only 4-5 jobs could pull in burn Pts was fair while now almost any job can isn't, then you're obviously missing something.

Give me one reason I should hang up my Othenus Bow for Perdu, I'm sure it will be entertaining.

Give me one CP weapon that's better then the Perdu Axe. See, if you can single out one job then so can I.

(btw, most CP items past 50 suck)

They you have incredible luck and defy even the design of Assault, which eventually guts the level cap options. You cannot find a 60 cap on pick-up, ever. Go try, you'll fail. The community thwarted the design on this one the moment SE gave them the choice of being able to cap this content.

1) Luck had NOTHING to do with it.

2) The reason why it's so hard to find level capped pick up assaults is because it's inconvienent. But if you go out and FIND people who are willing to do them capped...meaning you can take people who aren't 75 with you...then you will have no problems. SE gave us the option to choose our caps and it works out great for those who make use of it. And if it weren't for those specific level caps I would not be at the rank I am at now. So instead of bitching about random pick up parties, go out, grab some friends, which is how it was meant to be, and get the damn missions done

"Everything is fine the way it is, la la la la laaaaaaaaaaaa."

Seriously, you're sounding like a fanboy.

Just getting to Superior Private is a load of WORK. When the game becomes a job, the game ceases to be fun. This was supposed to be alternative endgame content you could do at a relaxed pace, but its a total grind instead and the design is to blame.

I'm not saying everything in this game is working as intended, but the ToAU mindset of easily accessible burn parties and Assault are two things which are not broken.

And it is physically impossible to "Grind" Assaults unless you just plain suck at this game. At most you spend an hour and a half (often times much less) every few days doing three missions, all of which are incredibly varied and engaging. If you are having trouble finding people to do them with, that's not a problem with Assaults, that's a problem with you.

If you can get Captian Rank, I think some Captain Rank Items would be nice. An extra tag and free runic portal use is cool and all, but still, there could be a bit more than what was left there. Its about as lame as getting a crown from ToA that does nothing.

Captain's Rank and the Crown are SYMBOLS of Accomplishment. They're things people don't need, but can strive for. But despite that, I still get more out of being a Captain then I do from being Rank 10.

Final count: Out of 20 jobs:

• 7 meleeburn well with no caveats.
• 2 meleeburn well, but are warped by the experience.
• 2 meleeburn well, but have invite-related problems because of meleeburn's existence.
• 1 hovers at the line between merely warped and gimp.
• 4 are rendered gimp by the existence of meleeburn.
• 1 is unclear.
• 3 can't seriously be expected to meleeburn, and are the big victims of meleeburn's conquest of FFXI.

Thus, it's more accurate to say that the majority of jobs can meleeburn, but over half of those who can would have cause to not find it fun despite the high efficiency.

Thfs melee burn pretty damn well when properly geared for it. A full haste set up means they can WS every time SA and TA are up, or throw a full Acc/Att set on and solo WS when they get 100 then solo SA then solo TA. As a thf, I find it more frustrating when I'm in a normal PT that wants me to set up SA or TA but people keep screwing up. At least in a TP burn I know I have free reign over when I use my abilities.

And while I'll grant you Blm having trouble in TP burns, they're usually too busy soloing 10-12k an hour or manaburning for more to care. You can thank Flans for that...another ToAU mob, fancy that. But Sch, Whm and hell, even Smn, they shouldn't really be having MP problems. Hell, OMG just posted a topic saying how boring and easy it was to burn on Sch because there was "so little to do". And as for Drk having burn Pts due to their MP...just don't even go there. Plds and Nins are sort of in the same boat. If they gear for tanking, they'll suck, but they can both gear for DD pretty damn effectively and hold their own. And Rng don't have problems with burns, even if they do spend all their time with 1-2 shots, they make them count. And they can always switch to lower delay ranged weapons. Bsts also get much stronger when facing weaker enemies because it means their pets will have more of an advantage due to lower lvl gaps. And blus who don't spam all their spells in 30 seconds or less can hold their own for a long time by stacking refresh.

So that leaves Pup...who I honestly don't know about either.

So out of the 20 jobs there are, the vast majority excel and the rest can fit in nicely.

Random pickup Exp and Merit PTs aren't "go out and have fun" parties, they're "go out and get Exp/Merit" parties. If you're looking to go out and have a relaxing, fun time while gaining Exp then you should do so with your friends. Even before Burn PTs became all the rage, the majority of the playerbase wanted as much Exp per hour at any cost and would often boot bad players and invite specific jobs just to get that. It's how TP burns started, it was a conscious combat tactic meant to maximize kill speed. As long as the only way to get Exp is to kill something, then killing things fast will always be the best way to gain Exp. This "but burns aren't fun so they should be nerfed!" mentality is the same sort of thinking that is used by Mnks who use staves because it fits their RP character better or Smns who sub Blm cause they don't like healing.

So you do mean horrible meleeburn mobs; OK then. -- Pteryx

Unless your parties have absolutely no one hitting the mob, or being hit by the mob, in any way shape or form then no, I do not mean melee burn.

THF does alright, especially on Colibri meritpo - the problem is that of community perception.

Ironically, this is the problem with all the complaints you yourself listed.

[Saren]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Biggest problem I've had, honestly. The uber-1337 guys who pull tons of hate and get their faces raped are what caused me to have no MP on WHM.

Same, the only times I've struggled for mp in TP burns are when there is a largish inequality in the DDs damage output. 1 dd doing less damage than the other three can still work (most because of shadow recast times and because I can still curaga efficiently) but 2 DDs or just 1 pulling ahead of the others and the party is screwed.

Not having played rdm at high level I have no idea if it means you can cope better in those kinds of merit parties but from what you said I am guessing yes.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Convert saves my butt when I am in a party where I actually need it. In crappy merit parties when I actually use WHM I miss it. But well-oiled merit parties on RDM make me think I could have gotten capped xp on WHM. It really depends on the party. If you're able to Haste x4 and little else, it doesn't matter if you have a RDM or a WHM.

And personally, while WHM > RDM in terms of fun for me, I will almost always merit on RDM because that's what people want me to do.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I'm not saying everything in this game is working as intended, but the ToAU mindset of easily accessible burn parties and Assault are two things which are not broken.

Thats broken fanboi talk if i ever heard it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

The quality of players has NOT changed. At all. People suck now just as much as they always have.

No, they're worse and worse in proportion, at that. BRD is levelled for merits and generally geared with no respect to its specialization. Melees used to put some thought in to accuracy gear, but now even at merit levels they're crying to BRDs and CORs for accuracy buffs on mobs they should be able to hit just fine on their own.

E nerfed Rng because they were dropping IT+++ mobs in 30 seconds or less. Things no other melee could hit, Rng were bringing in double digit chains. And they were the only melee Job who could do that. Rng weren't just decimating Merit mobs, they were decimating every mob from 30 onward.

Uh, RNGs never burned IT+++, they burned VT then just like we burn T and VT now. Sorry you missed the boat, but I saw a shitton of Arrowburns. If it didn't Zerk or con VT, we didn't fight it.

And if you're going to try and tell me that Drk's are more overpowered now then Rng were back then, then you're nuts. When you have one job who's only broken when they combine a 40 million gil item with their 2 hour and another job who was consistently doing over the top damage, even when using cheap gear, then you're sort of missing the point.

If you think the fact that in the past only 4-5 jobs could pull in burn Pts was fair while now almost any job can isn't, then you're obviously missing something.

Look, dimwit, they nerfed TWO JOBs - one to the point it was completely broken for TWO YEARS, the other only was marginally effected by gradual, built up NM magic resistance. Then not eight months later after the totally destroyed RNG, they turn around and say "Hey, TP burn is OK and we're not punishing the other jobs for it, oh, and BLMs we're fucking you over from 55 to 75."

I'm talking about BLATANT HYPOCRISY in design and execution. Either burns are bad or burns are good. I'm talking about what was unfair. The nerf itself was a slap in the face, ToA added insult to injury by letting others enjoy what RNG was punished for.

1) Luck had NOTHING to do with it.

2) The reason why it's so hard to find level capped pick up assaults is because it's inconvienent. But if you go out and FIND people who are willing to do them capped...meaning you can take people who aren't 75 with you...then you will have no problems. SE gave us the option to choose our caps and it works out great for those who make use of it. And if it weren't for those specific level caps I would not be at the rank I am at now. So instead of bitching about random pick up parties, go out, grab some friends, which is how it was meant to be, and get the damn missions done

Either you're chronically unemployed or you don't get it. Even with friends, this is a bitch and a half to plan around given all the other stuff that must be organized and planned around.

You. Got. Lucky. Period.

I'm not saying everything in this game is working as intended, but the ToAU mindset of easily accessible burn parties and Assault are two things which are not broken.

The majority of mages and tanks disagree with you. And pardon me for being so bold, our jobs are far more crucial to this game than the dime-a-dozen melee.

And while I'll grant you Blm having trouble in TP burns, they're usually too busy soloing 10-12k an hour or manaburning for more to care. You can thank Flans for that...another ToAU mob, fancy that. But Sch, Whm and hell, even Smn, they shouldn't really be having MP problems. Hell, OMG just posted a topic saying how boring and easy it was to burn on Sch because there was "so little to do". And as for Drk having burn Pts due to their MP...just don't even go there. Plds and Nins are sort of in the same boat. If they gear for tanking, they'll suck, but they can both gear for DD pretty damn effectively and hold their own. And Rng don't have problems with burns, even if they do spend all their time with 1-2 shots, they make them count. And they can always switch to lower delay ranged weapons. Bsts also get much stronger when facing weaker enemies because it means their pets will have more of an advantage due to lower lvl gaps.

You clearly don't know shit about PLD, NIN, BLM, RNG or BST's situation. Have you even soloed a level before. BLM used to get PTs from the Dunes onward, now they're hardly invited for that stretch of the game. If they are invited, they are invited as healers.

Healers. Black Mage.

Read that again.

Main healing Black Mage.

Is that not a problem to you?

Do you think I like them in my camps soloing as a BST any more than I enjoy getting completely ignored for invites while I have my flag up? Think I like it any better that I'm totally not wanted as a BST for endgame? Shit, your THF is just tagged in to get on the hate list for drops at the end, that must thrill you. That's a pretty cushy gig, not even having to fight the mob and being totally replaced by /THF sub.

Random pickup Exp and Merit PTs aren't "go out and have fun" parties, they're "go out and get Exp/Merit" parties. If you're looking to go out and have a relaxing, fun time while gaining Exp then you should do so with your friends. Even before Burn PTs became all the rage, the majority of the playerbase wanted as much Exp per hour at any cost and would often boot bad players and invite specific jobs just to get that. It's how TP burns started, it was a conscious combat tactic meant to maximize kill speed. As long as the only way to get Exp is to kill something, then killing things fast will always be the best way to gain Exp. This "but burns aren't fun so they should be nerfed!" mentality is the same sort of thinking that is used by Mnks who use staves because it fits their RP character better or Smns who sub Blm cause they don't like healing.

God forbid PTs be any fun.

You're totally on your own page, man. No one is demanding PTs be "fun," we're asking for PTs to employ real strategy and mechanics again. We want PTs to be involving and interesting - that is not the same thing as "fun."

People who take up tank jobs, you know, tend to like TANKING. Asking a TANK to DD is as awkward asking a BLM to main heal. If I were to come to your job (assuming you have one) and suggest you started working the opposite of your intended hired position instead of what you were hired for, wouldn't that just throw you off a little.

I'm pretty sure if I moved the janitor to a secretary position, it would be pretty jarring for them. Or if the CEO had to start mopping the floors. Or asking the guys in the shop area of the company to go to the shipping room and sort things out for packing and shipping, applying UPS code.

People want to so what they signed up for. Variety is fine, but not so long as it constantly strays from your intended role.

[Sevv]

Re: Everyone bitching about the same damn things again

Ok I'm finally responding to this thread again.

Endgame Issues:

When I say endgame isn't difficult that is because as a whole it isn't anything really challenging for the players who have been doing this for a few years. The first time you kill anything as a linkshell it is a major accomplishment in the vacuum that is your linkshell. When you look at the entire community of players, most of the linkshells in the game have 70+ kills on the newest mobs they have introduced into the game, we already have our strategies down and know exactly what to expect.

Endgame accomplishments for the community come in two forms. The first is anytime Square-Enix adds a new, HNM to the game the first few kills are accomplishments (as in kills server wide). We don't know what to expect at all or if it resists, two hours etc. Once it has been killed a hand full of times server wide, we have an starting point to prefect our strategy. The only other community wide endgame accomplishment will be cracking AV. The fact comes to 5 year content is 5 years old, if you have been around the game you, know what to watch out for on any of the giving mobs.

Tp burning in endgame, ok there is serious things you are forgetting about TP burns in endgame. First off the first time most people saw a tp burn kirin on this website, 90% of you shit your pants. You were all impressed by it and now you say it takes no skill. Granted while it is not the most "skilled" way to kill anything as you all say, it takes alot of time and effort to get the needed items in order to tp burn some of the bigger mobs in this game. Manaburning mobs just really takes a shit load of black mages, where as melee burn is all about the gear which a majority is r/e which means you have to kill your Fafnirs, Nidhoggs, Omegas, etc etc. to even be able to go back and burn a mob you already killed.

Most of the people here bitching about endgame don't even do much more then dynamis, limbus, sky, and maybe sea. You are using an outside opinion because you think it is fair that other people are getting the gear you dream about and you feel they are weaker players. It is fine for you to want to kill things other ways, but please until you tp burn bigger mobs and have killed everything but AV try to not pass your judgement on things you lack the first hand knowledge about.



The Past Nerfs

Ranger felt the nerf, yes they burned very similar to how we burn now. They targeted mobs that zerked or that were VT's, that was never the problem. They were able to put out near similar numbers on gods, etc.

Black Mages, wait was there an actually nerf?


Merit Burn Parties

Burn parties are and will be popular because they have the best Exp:Time ratio in the game. It allows people to not have to spend two to three times the time meriting or exping. Sorry but no matter what the set up Exp/Meriting was never introduced to be the best part of this game. Yes some jobs function better in merit parties then others, but in reality there will never be equality for all jobs in FFXI.

Many of you say you want to not burn in exp. That is fine simple way to fix this {Burn} {Party} {No, Thanks}, but then you will bitch about not getting as many invites. Well you can always make your own parties as well! The fact people forget about is that not everyone wants to get less exp an hour for a more "standard" or for some of you "fun" type of parties. Just because some of you find this better, does not mean the entire community does. People get very selfish and bitch because their views are not the number one view in this game, and they feel that S-E should nerf the game so their way will be the best or most popular. I am sure there are plenty of people who want, to exp the same way you do. You have to meet these people and form a mini-perma, and you will never have exp problems again. When I do buffer on my Paladin, I make sure I grab people who have trouble getting parties and usually grab 72-75 DD's to help them get 75, because that is how I like to exp, when I do merits you will not cetch me outside a burn party.

White Mage vs Red Mage in merits, it all depends on who is playing each.

Assaults

These are not hard. Seriously, nothing is difficult here. Some of them are more of a pain in the ass more then anything but you plan for it and you will be all set. The caps, were designed as again an option not as a must use route thru assaults. If people want to do them capped, then they can but don't expect most people to cap themselves if they are already 75, most newer players try to get 75 before getting thru the majority of extra content. They are nice if your helping out a lower level friend, but again they are not the best way to do them.

Other bitchy shit people posted

• To do almost anything in this game: Mages, Tanks, and DD's are needed they all have their places. People bitch that Paladin and Black Mage get no ToAU loving. Personally fighting vts on Pld made for less deaths and faster exp, I also made the effort to put together a Burn set up and have had little to no problems. Black Mages got alot of burnable and soloable mobs in ToAU and can pull some serious exp/hr out there.
• Rangers being punished by ToAU, Hi guys this is the game calling, the majority of the merit mobs are weak to peircing and flying, please learn to make those arrow burns again and watch how much exp/hr you get.
• Feeling that Pld, Nin, Rng, Blm have new issues, again all of these jobs can easily burn in ToAU. Please learn to make parties to maximize your job's exp potential and then come back after you break 20k/hr. Bst is the same except the lost the exp penalty, it is the curse of the soloable jobs.
• Fun, not everyone has the same idea of fun. Some people are going to disagree with you on what they find fun. I find getting the most exp/hr fun compared to wasting my time with 10k/hr.
• Don't know about you guys, but Sch is pretty hacks in leveling up.

[Vyuru]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I'm talking about BLATANT HYPOCRISY in design and execution. Either burns are bad or burns are good. I'm talking about what was unfair. The nerf itself was a slap in the face, ToA added insult to injury by letting others enjoy what RNG was punished for.

So far Rng is the only non mage job that I have ever seen allowed into a Kirin fight in the lvl 60-65 range.

That I call broken.

Well, I should say was since that ended after the great arrow nerf.

Also you are forgetting that unless the party setup was at least 2x Rng then it was starting to get impossible to get a exp party setup.

And then there was the fact that what, roughly 1/4rd of the entire level range of people LFG were all rangers, out of how many jobs?

TP burns weren't, and aren't, bad. It was the fact that ranged attacks/accuracy did not scale well for higher level mobs, and that almost everyone and their mother were leveling ranger to the exclusion of other jobs, that resulted in the nerf to ranger.

Asking a TANK to DD is as awkward asking a BLM to main heal.

It's not really that awkward when you consider that a number of Pld are going the DD tank route.

And main healing is something that Blm should expect to be asked to do. Should it be their role for all of FFXI to main heal? No. But it is no great travesty to ask a Blm to main heal either.

[Karinya]

Exp, balance, fun, and other eternal issues

You were all impressed by it and now you say it takes no skill.

melee burn is all about the gear

I agree that melee burn (both exp and hnm) is all about the gear. Gear is not skill. Thanks for playing.

Especially when you get that gear by having the best claimbot on the server (ridill, adaberk, d-ring etc.), buying gil (some relics), or other illegitimate means (ls's with a distribution system that amounts to a pyramid scheme; some relics in this category too).

Time is also not skill. Beating Proto-Omega once is just as hard as beating him 100 times (in fact, the first kill is the hardest because you don't have any of the drops or as much experience with the fight), but it won't equip your linkshell nearly as well for the next mob to come along. The same applies to all other mobs and content.

There's really no reason not to make HNM drops 100% (or even give every member a ticket for the reward of their choice, the way avatar fights work already) - a group who beats DL repeatedly isn't any more worthy than someone who beats him once, they just have more time to throw at the problem. Making Shadow Mantle a random drop makes *exactly* as much sense as making Fenrir summon a random drop. So why did SE do one and not the other?

Making uber-gear scarce doesn't reduce the balance problems introduced by its existence; it worsens them. By opening up gaps between different players and groups of players, it makes it difficult or impossible to balance content for all of them. If everyone had Ridill, endgame content would be designed around it, and people who had a bunch of them wouldn't tp burn mobs that are supposed to be HNMs. On the other hand, if you design content for gear that lots of people *don't* have, then you potentially stick some people with not having good enough gear to do the fights that get better gear.

The fact people forget about is that not everyone wants to get less exp an hour for a more "standard" or for some of you "fun" type of parties.

Why should those types of parties make less exp per hour than a meleeburn? And why should the differences be so huge?

Why shouldn't SE adjust the exp system so that *different kinds of parties* can make *similar* exp/hr? Even if they don't get it exactly identical for every party setup (and even if some setups deserve to fail - although I would include setups with no tank or hate control and few defensive jobs in the "deserve to fail" category, myself, so maybe this principle should be applied sparingly), there's tremendous room for improvement.

Every job should be part of at least some party setups that get a desirable rate of exp/hr in a camp appropriate to that party setup (compared to what else is possible for that level; of course the appropriate camps need not be the same, and ideally shouldn't be, to alleviate congestion). As many party setups as possible should make similar and competitive rates of exp/hr in the camps appropriate to each of them. Those are my goals for the exp system, and the current system is a very long way from them. I've suggested nerfing the upward outliers simply because it's simpler and less likely to get screwed up than trying to buff everything *except* meleeburns. SE could introduce even godlier exp rings at the same time and give everyone more total exp/hr, or reduce exp requirements again and knock merits down to 5k limit points so you actually did more to advance your character even with less exp/hr - it wouldn't matter, as long as different party setups were closer together, I'd be happier with it. You getting good exp doesn't *have* to be defined in reference to other jobs (or people without as much gear to throw at the problem) getting crappy exp.

I admit, I played the world's tiniest violin for BLMs for a while, considering that of their former HNM, BCNM and exp dominance, they have really only lost the latter (except in hnmls's that are insanely overgeared for the fight they are doing, and even then it depends on the fight). But it's gone too far - they're not just not gods anymore, they're actively shunned, and no job deserves that. Not even the ones who exploited BCNM imbalances to rip off 50% of the profits of other players' hard-earned kindred seals.

Fun, not everyone has the same idea of fun. Some people are going to disagree with you on what they find fun. I find getting the most exp/hr fun compared to wasting my time with 10k/hr.

If you agree that "not everyone has the same idea of fun", then why should the best exp/hr rates be reserved for a very narrow range of party setups that many jobs are just not welcome in, and others perform poorly at best?

Exp is a special case because you not only can't buy and sell it, you can't even transfer it from job to job on the same character. So every job *has* to be able to make its own, and their relative effectiveness at doing so is *always* important.

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

OK, I stand corrected on SCH.

As for the idea of merely seeking with search comments, there are four problems with that. One, lots of people don't even bother to read search comments to begin with. Two, does {Burn} {Party} even mean the same thing to JPs? Three, I'm open to manaburns; it's meleeburns I don't want to be in. Four -- this is the key one -- using this method opens one to the criticism of the majority. By putting up your seek flag and refusing parties on the grounds that you don't want to be part of the most popular kind, you frustrate and enrage party leaders and probably undermine your own reputation. By publically stating a preference for traditional parties, you invite the condescending "correction" of your tastes from your peers ("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.). Because of this, we can't even network -- meleeburn elitists have taken over the tools players are supposed to use to do so, and will tolerate no one else using them.

I have to say that what I resent the most is the implication that just because a job can meleeburn in theory, even if it's by doing something completely different than they signed up on the job to do, that they not only should, but should at the very least should feel neutral about it, if not be awed by the numbers passing by. "Not everyone has the same idea of fun"? That's exactly my point! Why are you using that argument to claim that we're wrong for liking something you don't like and wanting to be able to do it without those like you ganging up and beating on us in the playground corner?

Here's a thought for those of you who think that everything is going as planned: if SE intended for zero-downtime meleeburn dominance to happen, then why did they introduce BLU in the same expansion as imps and colibri? -- Pteryx

[Sevv]

Re: Exp, balance, fun, and other eternal issues

I agree that melee burn (both exp and hnm) is all about the gear. Gear is not skill. Thanks for playing.

Especially when you get that gear by having the best claimbot on the server (ridill, adaberk, d-ring etc.), buying gil (some relics), or other illegitimate means (ls's with a distribution system that amounts to a pyramid scheme; some relics in this category too).

Time is also not skill. Beating Proto-Omega once is just as hard as beating him 100 times (in fact, the first kill is the hardest because you don't have any of the drops or as much experience with the fight), but it won't equip your linkshell nearly as well for the next mob to come along. The same applies to all other mobs and content.

There's really no reason not to make HNM drops 100% (or even give every member a ticket for the reward of their choice, the way avatar fights work already) - a group who beats DL repeatedly isn't any more worthy than someone who beats him once, they just have more time to throw at the problem. Making Shadow Mantle a random drop makes *exactly* as much sense as making Fenrir summon a random drop. So why did SE do one and not the other?

Making uber-gear scarce doesn't reduce the balance problems introduced by its existence; it worsens them. By opening up gaps between different players and groups of players, it makes it difficult or impossible to balance content for all of them. If everyone had Ridill, endgame content would be designed around it, and people who had a bunch of them wouldn't tp burn mobs that are supposed to be HNMs. On the other hand, if you design content for gear that lots of people *don't* have, then you potentially stick some people with not having good enough gear to do the fights that get better gear.

Ok so you agreed with me that hnm really doesn't take skill just time, yay? The first kill is always the hardest, that post was in response to people saying that they wanted to list the mobs I have not tp burned, and I responded with the list and said Endgame isn't hard. I can kill Nidhogg in under 10 min someone else could take 59 min they both accomplish the same thing. Nothing in this game takes skill really and honestly FFXI is not hard.

Why should those types of parties make less exp per hour than a meleeburn? And why should the differences be so huge?

Honestly, the difference isn't huge if you take great melees and put them in a standard pt and you focus on VTs. Any job at 75 in a good party can get 20k + an hour, it is not difficult, but the parties you see getting less, are scalably worse. No support class jobs will take off a chunk of your exp, taking away a DD removes your exp. It is not that the parties are worse, it is your taking out a dd for a pld or a brd for a pld etc.

Why shouldn't SE adjust the exp system so that *different kinds of parties* can make *similar* exp/hr? Even if they don't get it exactly identical for every party setup (and even if some setups deserve to fail - although I would include setups with no tank or hate control and few defensive jobs in the "deserve to fail" category, myself, so maybe this principle should be applied sparingly), there's tremendous room for improvement.

You also have to view your comparing the best DD's gear wise with support to a party of less geared players, If they were equally geared then the exp should be similar but you have to scale in the removing damage for a tank. Also would have to scale everything. It is alot more complicated of why the exp is different then just "I WANT MOAR GIMMIE". Hell S-E should give us every job at 75 all the merits and all the gear to play that would be fair!

Every job should be part of at least some party setups that get a desirable rate of exp/hr in a camp appropriate to that party setup (compared to what else is possible for that level; of course the appropriate camps need not be the same, and ideally shouldn't be, to alleviate congestion). As many party setups as possible should make similar and competitive rates of exp/hr in the camps appropriate to each of them. Those are my goals for the exp system, and the current system is a very long way from them. I've suggested nerfing the upward outliers simply because it's simpler and less likely to get screwed up than trying to buff everything *except* meleeburns. SE could introduce even godlier exp rings at the same time and give everyone more total exp/hr, or reduce exp requirements again and knock merits down to 5k limit points so you actually did more to advance your character even with less exp/hr - it wouldn't matter, as long as different party setups were closer together, I'd be happier with it. You getting good exp doesn't *have* to be defined in reference to other jobs (or people without as much gear to throw at the problem) getting crappy exp.

Almost every job can get 20k/hr w/o any major effort. The only jobs that don't get this on average is beast and puppetmaster, but that is the price of soloing. Jobs are not spammed invites not because of S-E but because of players, period.

I admit, I played the world's tiniest violin for BLMs for a while, considering that of their former HNM, BCNM and exp dominance, they have really only lost the latter (except in hnmls's that are insanely overgeared for the fight they are doing, and even then it depends on the fight). But it's gone too far - they're not just not gods anymore, they're actively shunned, and no job deserves that. Not even the ones who exploited BCNM imbalances to rip off 50% of the profits of other players' hard-earned kindred seals.

They are not fully shunned compared to the days of old yes they are, but for most of the time soloing is actually quicker then parties. Not to mention they can makes parties and they can manaburn for 20k/hr or even heard soling for 17k+/hr.

If you agree that "not everyone has the same idea of fun", then why should the best exp/hr rates be reserved for a very narrow range of party setups that many jobs are just not welcome in, and others perform poorly at best?

Their will always be a gap between the best of the best and the normal. There should be a gap otherwise what is the reason to put forth any effort.

Exp is a special case because you not only can't buy and sell it, you can't even transfer it from job to job on the same character. So every job *has* to be able to make its own, and their relative effectiveness at doing so is *always* important.

Every job can make great exp, if you know how to builf parties, hell unloved jobs: Pld Sam Thf Dnc Rdm Whm, and I am getting 15k/hr in the late 50's. Knowing the game is half the battle.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.)

My god... it's like you've been chronicling my in-game and Ventrilo conversations.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

OK, I stand corrected on SCH.

As for the idea of merely seeking with search comments, there are four problems with that. One, lots of people don't even bother to read search comments to begin with.

There are lots of people who do, and ya Sch is sick.

Two, does {Burn} {Party} even mean the same thing to JPs?

While not being a direct translation, it is well understood.

Three, I'm open to manaburns; it's meleeburns I don't want to be in.

So your jobist!

Four -- this is the key one -- using this method opens one to the criticism of the majority. By putting up your seek flag and refusing parties on the grounds that you don't want to be part of the most popular kind, you frustrate and enrage party leaders and probably undermine your own reputation. By publically stating a preference for traditional parties, you invite the condescending "correction" of your tastes from your peers ("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.). Because of this, we can't even network -- meleeburn elitists have taken over the tools players are supposed to use to do so, and will tolerate no one else using them.

There will always be a current standards, like parting without a black mage back in the day was gimping yourself. People do it and will always work to playing to the standard, you have to build your parties to cut your seeking time.

I have to say that what I resent the most is the implication that just because a job can meleeburn in theory, even if it's by doing something completely different than they signed up on the job to do, that they not only should, but should at the very least should feel neutral about it, if not be awed by the numbers passing by. "Not everyone has the same idea of fun"? That's exactly my point! Why are you using that argument to claim that we're wrong for liking something you don't like and wanting to be able to do it without those like you ganging up and beating on us in the playground corner?

I am using that arguement because, the non-meleeburn people are the ones who bitch and want nerf's on ever damn thread. I have always said and stood behind play your way, it is not always going to be the most popular so you may have to work for it. Working for it is not bitching for a nerf and crying like emo kids.

Here's a thought for those of you who think that everything is going as planned: if SE intended for zero-downtime meleeburn dominance to happen, then why did they introduce BLU in the same expansion as imps and colibri? -- Pteryx

Blu actually is very mp efficent if you don't spam your spells, also being a jack of all trades, it can fill alot of spots.