Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Probably it would be best to introduce both nerfs and buffs to address the problem well. There is, however, one key thing SE needs to do if we're to have a good merit-level trad-party experience... give us some IT mobs to fight! A Vana'diel Bestiary search returns zero mobs that give 200 XP or more per fight to a party of six 75s, and only eight mobs that have a chance of returning 154 XP/fight -- and six of those only hit that total on their highest-level specimens. In that respect, there are even fewer merit camps than we normally assert. -- Pteryx

[Mhurron]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

IT make horrible merit mobs. Honestly, you'd probably get better EXP killing VT/+ mobs before meriting.

[Feba]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I think the factors you cite here are a bit extreme

Well, I'm not talking specifics. Again, you'd have to have access to information only SE would have access to to be able to effectively balance it.

and they would see this as nothing but an xp nerf.

Well, ideally, it would make EXPing more a matter of "where can we go to get the best EXP", and parties roam around, instead of of camping (I mean this purely as "your party was here, your next party may be there"; not as "your party is constantly changing zones)

The idea would be to make challenging and out of the way camps very rewarding, while easy to get to and ones that are heavily used aren't so great (which also makes sense: mobs that aren't attacked for awhile would get a chance to beef up, mobs that are constantly getting pounded into submission would never get to mature much) . It would also be used to thin out severely overpopulated areas, by making the EXP there almost sour, until people go elsewhere. All around, better EXP for those that try harder; the game and servers should run smoother for everyone, and it will also help to impact Conquest

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

IT make horrible merit mobs. Honestly, you'd probably get better EXP killing VT/+ mobs before meriting.

Horrible merit mobs, or just horrible meleeburn mobs? -- Pteryx

[Feba]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

IT make horrible merit mobs.

IT mobs are usually not the best choice-- but why not provide them? Just because they're there doesn't mean people have to EXP on them.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Well, part of the point here is that if traditional parties are ever going to have any shot at xp/hr parity (or even just lack of horrible disparity), what with their long fights and downtime, they have to be able to get a lot more xp/mob to compensate for low kill rate relative to meleeburn. What trad parties bring to the table is the ability to go after stronger mobs, so those stronger mobs have to be there and provide the kind of xp return necessary to make up for the low kill speed.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

While we're ranting about all stuff ToA.

For the love of all that is good, fucking fix Assault.

When SE came up with Assault initially, they had a semi-decent concept for it - optional level-capping. Unfortunately they removed this option from the higher rank missions and in doing so, turned it into a 75-onry affair. So to obtain a lot of this level 72 gear, I must first be 75.

Um, what?

Not only that, there isn't ANY real incentive to anyone to go and help others through these missions. If Allied Notes are an admission of Conquest's failings, then Campaign Ops are the same admission of failure in regards to Assault.

Assault is really the only thing that is more of a pain in the ass to do than CoPs. Not everything in this game needs to boil down to "make a static." I'm not saying make this soloable, but damn, make it a little more realistic. Its really telling that to structure is flawed people stop at the first tier of a particular area just to spam it for points, hell, that's part of the problem.

If its not for Leujoam Sanctum PSC being shouted for 75% of the time, its some higher tier one nobody can do. The structure is just too rigid. While some might take issue with having to give up two ranks to change nations in Campaign for other national gear, at least it Campaign gear is far more obtainable. I can take a hit after I've capped rank.

Also, to do Salvage, you must assault. If you do Nyzul Assault, this pretty much kills your ability to Salvage or do other Assaults to have points for Salvage. If Nyzul has all the items for relic upgrades being placed in it soon, OK, I'll accept that method to this madness. If not - especially if Nyzul relic upgrades are put elsewhere - it makes no sense for it to be structured this way.

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Assault is really the only thing that is more of a pain in the ass to do than CoPs. Not everything in this game needs to boil down to "make a static." I'm not saying make this soloable, but damn, make it a little more realistic. Its really telling that to structure is flawed people stop at the first tier of a particular area just to spam it for points, hell, that's part of the problem.

If its not for Leujoam Sanctum PSC being shouted for 75% of the time, its some higher tier one nobody can do. The structure is just too rigid. While some might take issue with having to give up two ranks to change nations in Campaign for other national gear, at least it Campaign gear is far more obtainable. I can take a hit after I've capped rank.

Funny, it's not like this on Midgard. A reasonable, though still limited, variety of Assaults are shouted for in our Whitegate, including several that only call for PSC, PFC, or SP. Many you can still get people for if you shout for them as level-capped, as long as the cap is 60 or 70 (no one does 50-cap Assaults). If all else fails, you can always get DDs, a red mage, and any one of RDM, BLM, or SCH together for Excavation Duty so you can skill up on some walls. Going with known quantities usually just means you can get away with one or two fewer members than you normally would; it's understood here that Assault != XP grinding, so it's OK to ask questions. -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

While we're ranting about all stuff ToA.

For the love of all that is good, fucking fix Assault.

It's funny that you think there's something wrong with assault, and I think the problem is your standard rant: people are lazy.

The problem with trying to organize a sergeant assault (and sergeant is not that high in the rank structure) is that there are maybe 100 sergeants on your server and 90 are in statics. Most people are just too lazy to rank up, and so they *can't* join any assault above PFC (let alone organize one). The other problem is that the rewards of higher ranked assaults aren't worth the trouble - you can get the same items from spamming PSCs, with less time looking for members, so why not do that instead?

I'm a first lieutenant with only 7 assaults needed to make captain - but I have no realistic chance of getting them in any reasonable amount of time without an assault static. (And yes, I used to have one, which is how I got to FL.) Not that it matters that much, because even if I did make captain, what would I do with it? More excavation duty? AFAIK there aren't even any captain items from IS, the way there are rank 10 conquest items.

I think it would help to increase the rewards of higher rank. Maybe sanction exp bonus should be capped by your rank (PSCs can't get an exp bonus, PFCs can get at most 2%, SPs 4%, etc...) - that would make people want to get their rank higher, I bet. Higher ranked people could have higher caps on their Besieged rewards, or a better exchange rate when trading IS for currency, or something.

Increasing the assault point values of higher ranked assaults would help too. Not only would it allow higher ranked people to support a salvage + nyzul schedule, but it would also give an incentive for people who have a rank higher than PSC to actually do something other than PSCs. Oh, and if assault is going to be connected to salvage, how about giving all FL assaults a chance to drop khroma ore or imperial wootz ingot as an appraisal item? The price spike in imperial wootz was (and still is) a major obstacle in getting salvage body pieces, which is just wrong - the focus of salvage should be on doing salvage, not on getting gil to buy some overpriced ingots.

[Ziero]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Actually, better idea: Lower EXP earned when an area is popular, and increase EXP when it's unpopular. It would be hard to set exact numbers without having access to the data SE has, but, for example, if a zone has 3 times as much EXP earned inside it as the average of other zones, your EXP there is cut to a third. This would force people to spread out to many areas which otherwise wouldn't be as attractive, and encourage them to go to oddball camps (if your area has only a third of the average EXP earned, for example, EXP would be tripled. Those might be a bit much, but you get my point)

This would also prevent any camp from ever getting monopolistically popular in the future, too. Of course, SE would have to add ways for players to easily tell what areas will have what penalties and rewards on the region map, but other than that.

This...this is an awesome idea.

If SE "intended" to make ToA camps the norm, then I can't understand why the current expansion is larger in size and scope than any that had preceded it. I don't think these zones are just backdrops for missions and a different way to grab some EXP without PTs.

Actually, I do understand why the new expansion is "larger in size and scope", and that's because very few of the new areas are actually new. But unlike you, I also understand that Campaign is the major draw to the new expansion zones as normal EXP pts are still the major draw to ToAU zones. If you think SE made these fast repop, low def/hp, VT mobs in an area with an overlying exp bonus on every kill for something other then TP burning(something almost all jobs can do) then I would love to hear your theory on why they're there.

TP burns used to be something only Mnks, Rngs, and Wars used to be able to do and then it was only in very specific spots. Now there are mobs anyone can get too and everyone can kill that dramatically raised the average of exp per hour to effectively lessen one of the games greatest timesinks and you people are complaining?

And really, there aren't a lot of worthwhile items to buy from imperial standing in terms of Assault Ranks. OK, maybe there is if you're a ToA job, but thats about it.

The way we earn Allied Notes in Campaign is almost an admission of guilt that Conquest is ailing in some ways, we obtain Allied Notes totally different from the way we get Conquest points or Imperial Standing. Campaign will never suffer, people will always have a means of getting Allied Note items..

There's more useful FL gear then there is rank 10 gear. And both IS and AN are used a lot more often then CP.

Horrible merit mobs, or just horrible meleeburn mobs? -- Pteryx

Horrible Merit mobs, unless you intend to Mage Burn them. VTs are always the best target for melees. Always.

While we're ranting about all stuff ToA

For the love of all that is good, fucking fix Assault.

What?

Assaults are like the most perfect thing SE has ever added.

When SE came up with Assault initially, they had a semi-decent concept for it - optional level-capping. Unfortunately they removed this option from the higher rank missions and in doing so, turned it into a 75-onry affair. So to obtain a lot of this level 72 gear, I must first be 75.

Um, what? I'm FL rank and have more then enough AP to buy any of the 72 gear and I haven't even gotten to do the last ranked missions yet. Though I have done up to CS rank, and every single mission I've done was at 60 cap. So yea, you're wrong on this one.

Assault is really the only thing that is more of a pain in the ass to do than CoPs. Not everything in this game needs to boil down to "make a static." I'm not saying make this soloable, but damn, make it a little more realistic. Its really telling that to structure is flawed people stop at the first tier of a particular area just to spam it for points, hell, that's part of the problem.

Bull. Crap. If people spam PSC assaults for points they're idiots because there are a lot easier ones to spam at different levels. Hell many can even be done with THREE PEOPLE easier then some of the first tier ones can be done with 6. If people don't do higher lvl ones, it's not something wrong with Assaults, it's something wrong with the person.

If its not for Leujoam Sanctum PSC being shouted for 75% of the time, its some higher tier one nobody can do. The structure is just too rigid. While some might take issue with having to give up two ranks to change nations in Campaign for other national gear, at least it Campaign gear is far more obtainable. I can take a hit after I've capped rank.

Are you kidding? Seriously, Assault gear is so easy to get it's not funny. All it takes is time. You don't even need a set static to do them, all you need are friends who don't suck. I've been doing bi-weekly assaults for almost a year now, and every time I go I'm bringing different people from my LS with me. Not because I need their jobs for a specific assault, because we don't decide which assaults we're doing until we have everyone ready, but because so many people can, and will, do them. The key to Assaults is to have the ability to do them regularly, and shouting for groups will never be a gaurenteed thing. So if that's all you have then you need to think of another way to do them, because it's not Assaults fault you can't find a party.

Also, to do Salvage, you must assault. If you do Nyzul Assault, this pretty much kills your ability to Salvage or do other Assaults to have points for Salvage. If Nyzul has all the items for relic upgrades being placed in it soon, OK, I'll accept that method to this madness. If not - especially if Nyzul relic upgrades are put elsewhere - it makes no sense for it to be structured this way.

Increasing the assault point values of higher ranked assaults would help too. Not only would it allow higher ranked people to support a salvage + nyzul schedule, but it would also give an incentive for people who have a rank higher than PSC to actually do something other than PSCs. Oh, and if assault is going to be connected to salvage, how about giving all FL assaults a chance to drop khroma ore or imperial wootz ingot as an appraisal item? The price spike in imperial wootz was (and still is) a major obstacle in getting salvage body pieces, which is just wrong - the focus of salvage should be on doing salvage, not on getting gil to buy some overpriced ingots.

Do one, one FL ranked Assault and you can get into Salvage. No matter how many people you have, or how many times you've beaten it before, the FL missions always give enough AP to enter Salvage.

I'm a first lieutenant with only 7 assaults needed to make captain - but I have no realistic chance of getting them in any reasonable amount of time without an assault static. (And yes, I used to have one, which is how I got to FL.) Not that it matters that much, because even if I did make captain, what would I do with it? More excavation duty? AFAIK there aren't even any captain items from IS, the way there are rank 10 conquest items.

You mean besides having free use of the Runic Portals and getting a 4th storable tag? I mean, you could always use that extra tag to do, oh I don't know, Nyzul Isle?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

TP burns used to be something only Mnks, Rngs, and Wars used to be able to do and then it was only in very specific spots. Now there are mobs anyone can get too and everyone can kill that dramatically raised the average of exp per hour to effectively lessen one of the games greatest timesinks and you people are complaining?

We complain because the quality of players has lowered as a direct result. These mobs are too easy to hit, take too much damage and give too much EXP for how weak they are.

Additionally, SE made the mistake of nerfing RNG so hard to discourage thier ability to burn. To turn around and then give everyone the ability to burn makes that decisions hypocritical at best.

If burns are bad, then they are bad for everyone. If burns are not bad, instead of all these incrimental readjustments over the course of three years, why didn't they leave RNG the way it was. If you're going to tell me its because they were too powerful at endgame, I'll be happy to direct you to all the overpowered, reptitive and broken tactics that are currently popular.

Kraken Club + Blood Weapon for example.

The fact that burns are allowed is not consistant with the nerfs SE made to RNG. RNGs were nerfed in RoZ and CoP camps because arrowburns would decimate any merit camp at that time and leave other PTs settling for scraps.

Somehow, that's okay now just because everyone can do it, yet it was "bad" when MNK, WAR, RNG and BLM did it exclusively and BLM and RNG got nerfs for it. Its is not consistant.

Honestly, I think this has nothing to do with fairness to other jobs. SE fucked up on past nerfs and on the creation of ToA camps. Its always overkill or lowball with the RoZ/ToA guys. The FFXI/CoP/WotG seems to always bring balanced camps with reasonably challenging mobs.

There's more useful FL gear then there is rank 10 gear. And both IS and AN are used a lot more often then CP.

Give me one reason I should hang up my Othenus Bow for Perdu, I'm sure it will be entertaining.

Conquest weapons with rank take far, far longer to obtain than Imperial standing weapons do with rank. Ranking up Assault takes far, far longer than ranking up in Conquest, doing RoZ/ToA/CoP missions or ranking up in Campaign.

Assaults are like the most perfect thing SE has ever added.

Wrong, Limbus is.

Um, what? I'm FL rank and have more then enough AP to buy any of the 72 gear and I haven't even gotten to do the last ranked missions yet. Though I have done up to CS rank, and every single mission I've done was at 60 cap. So yea, you're wrong on this one

They you have incredible luck and defy even the design of Assault, which eventually guts the level cap options. You cannot find a 60 cap on pick-up, ever. Go try, you'll fail. The community thwarted the design on this one the moment SE gave them the choice of being able to cap this content.

You mean besides having free use of the Runic Portals and getting a 4th storable tag? I mean, you could always use that extra tag to do, oh I don't know, Nyzul Isle?

"Everything is fine the way it is, la la la la laaaaaaaaaaaa."

Seriously, you're sounding like a fanboy.

Just getting to Superior Private is a load of WORK. When the game becomes a job, the game ceases to be fun. This was supposed to be alternative endgame content you could do at a relaxed pace, but its a total grind instead and the design is to blame.

If you can get Captian Rank, I think some Captain Rank Items would be nice. An extra tag and free runic portal use is cool and all, but still, there could be a bit more than what was left there. Its about as lame as getting a crown from ToA that does nothing.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

It's funny that you think there's something wrong with assault, and I think the problem is your standard rant: people are lazy.

I think there's a different underlying theme that is common to many rants today: I can't effectively play this game the way I want to play it. Therefore it is broken and needs to be fixed.

[Feba]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I can't effectively play this game the way I want to play it.

I want FFXI on DS, does that count?

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

TP burns used to be something only Mnks, Rngs, and Wars used to be able to do and then it was only in very specific spots. Now there are mobs anyone can get too and everyone can kill that dramatically raised the average of exp per hour to effectively lessen one of the games greatest timesinks and you people are complaining?

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Excuse me? Anyone can meleeburn? Let's back up and look at the facts here...

WAR: Meleeburns great.
MNK: Meleeburns great.
THF: Really isn't built for it; can fill a space if nothing else is available, but can't stage-pull, can't SA if the mob doesn't hold still, can't TA if the melees don't hold still (or are so chickenshit that they dodge), doesn't do much damage without its spike damage tools, and Accomplice and Collaborator are pointless in a situation where hate is supposed to bounce in the first place.
BLM: Can't meleeburn at all, unless you seriously count playing in the SMN subjob-based main healer ghetto. Can't even seek for manaburns anymore because people will try to rope them into main healing meleeburns. Imps and colibri are bad nuking targets.
WHM: Can heal meleeburns... until they run out of MP and the melees throw a hissyfit over having to break chain. Gets invited anyway, but only due to RDM scarcity.
RDM: Meleeburns great. The only real meleeburn healer out there. Unfortunately, this comes at the expense of being warped into a pure healer and haster; we can't really debuff beyond Dia at a meleeburn pace.
PLD: Tanking is not desired in meleeburns. MP pools are not desired in meleeburns. So-called PLDs who meleeburn are PLD/NINs in DD setups, which is not what most PLDs signed up for, nor is it something PLD excels at. Because of this, most PLDs have given up and are found in Campaign instead.
DRK: Meleeburns great, if anyone bothers to try. However they're going to run out of MP for Absorb-TP eventually -- if they bother casting anything in the first place. Still liable to not be invited, as the very existence of an MP pool is a crime now. Thus, most DRKs have given up and are found in Campaign instead.
BRD: The keystone of meleeburning, and can't get a moment's peace because of it. Some BRDs and potential BRDs have been scared away from the job by the requirement of pulling for meleeburns.
BST: Solos anyway, but could probably meleeburn great.
RNG: You try getting decent DPS when your job is built around attacking every five seconds (three of which you have to stay still for) from a particular distance and you only get 20 seconds in which to position yourself and fire off some shots before people scream at you to pull. No, really, go on; I'm collecting hair for wigs.
DRG: Meleeburns great.
SAM: Meleeburns great.
NIN: While theoretically the "tank" of many meleeburns, tend not to do much actual tanking -- and nobody notices or cares. Doesn't bother to debuff for obvious reasons. Basically, NIN in meleeburn is back where it was before NIN tanking was devised and is coasting on its reputation to get invites.
SMN: For the upteenth time, a large MP pool and non-native cures don't make you a healer! Furthermore, 2 MP/tick Auto Refresh isn't useful in refilling that MP pool; you'll need some of that blasphemous downtime to do it. Thus, meleeburn just emphasizes SMN's problems if they're invited at all.
BLU: BLUs depend on their MP to do any serious damage. Due to the prohibition of downtime in meleeburns, a BLU will run out of MP and never get it back. Therefore, BLUs aren't allowed in meleeburns anymore. Most BLUs have given up seeking and are found in Campaign instead.
COR: Meleeburns great if you can find one, AFAIK.
PUP: Solos anyway. Unfortunately, I have no idea how they'd perform in a meleeburn.
DNC: Meleeburns great.
SCH: Can't be expected to nuke, as nuking is not allowed in meleeburn. Thus, they're stuck in {Light Arts} ONRY. They at least have handy things to contribute... until they, horror of horrors, run out of MP. That's against the rules!

Final count: Out of 20 jobs:

• 7 meleeburn well with no caveats.
• 2 meleeburn well, but are warped by the experience.
• 2 meleeburn well, but have invite-related problems because of meleeburn's existence.
• 1 hovers at the line between merely warped and gimp.
• 4 are rendered gimp by the existence of meleeburn.
• 1 is unclear.
• 3 can't seriously be expected to meleeburn, and are the big victims of meleeburn's conquest of FFXI.

Thus, it's more accurate to say that the majority of jobs can meleeburn, but over half of those who can would have cause to not find it fun despite the high efficiency.

Horrible Merit mobs, unless you intend to Mage Burn them. VTs are always the best target for melees. Always.

So you do mean horrible meleeburn mobs; OK then. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I think there's a different underlying theme that is common to many rants today: I can't effectively play this game the way I want to play it. Therefore it is broken and needs to be fixed.

It wouldn't kill SE to make some more content that didn't require a dedicated static or Linkshell in order to complete. People tend to be a superstitious and cowardly lot when it comes to doing missions. You can get anyone in the world to come camp an NM or do a quest, but the moment it becomes a mission the community turns it into an ordeal.

"We don't need this job, we need that job."
"We want to do it uncapped."
"Sorry, we're full."
"I don't need that mission."
"I'm on the mission before that."
"I can't do it on Friday nights."
"Sorry, work kept me late."
"I don't have the expansion."
"Your PLD needs to be 72 at least to tank this"

Arrgh.

Do you know the CoP superstitions actually extend to ToA missions? People think they need a static for it, so they don't do them. People think they need certain jobs just to beat these missions. These missions are a joke, but people even make these an ordeal now.

THF: Really isn't built for it; can fill a space if nothing else is available, but can't stage-pull, can't SA if the mob doesn't hold still, can't TA if the melees don't hold still (or are so chickenshit that they dodge), doesn't do much damage without its spike damage tools, and Accomplice and Collaborator are pointless in a situation where hate is supposed to bounce in the first place.

THF does alright, especially on Colibri meritpo - the problem is that of community perception.

RDM: Meleeburns great. The only real meleeburn healer out there. Unfortunately, this comes at the expense of being warped into a pure healer and haster; we can't really debuff beyond Dia at a meleeburn pace.

Hate to say it, its no longer true. SCH bests them handily as a main healer for meritpo, RDMs are now invited pretty much for haste and refresh if you have a SCH main heal. This actually frees them up to help claim mobs quite a bit more than before.

BRD: The keystone of meleeburning, and can't get a moment's peace because of it. Some BRDs and potential BRDs have been scared away from the job by the requirement of pulling for meleeburns.

That's not actually the problem. Good BRDs always pulled in high level PTs, even before ToA. The problem now is that they're expected to apply high level pulling tactics at low levels. The problem is also that this emphasis and pressure on pulling has lead to a de-emphasis on what BRDs are really invited for - Buffs. Seriously, these days if I want melee buffs, I'd sooner trust a SMN or COR to give them to me. If I get a BRD and I'm a melee, good luck getting or even keeping buffs anymore.

RNG: You try getting decent DPS when your job is built around attacking every five seconds (three of which you have to stay still for) from a particular distance and you only get 20 seconds in which to position yourself and fire off some shots before people scream at you to pull. No, really, go on; I'm collecting hair for wigs.

As of the addition of Velocity Shot, things are actually pretty good for RNGs now, the problem lies with us pairing up with BRDs. Arrowburns aren't a common sight, but they are indeed back.

SCH: Can't be expected to nuke, as nuking is not allowed in meleeburn. Thus, they're stuck in {Light Arts} ONRY. They at least have handy things to contribute... until they, horror of horrors, run out of MP. That's against the rules!

My complaint actually is finding things to do with MP, its incredibly difficult for me to run out of MP.