Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

[Mhurron]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

More then just the Hagun drops from that ENM. Something could be worked out. Hell, chances are that they wouldn't get the GK the first time (or second ...) and so the other 5 would split all the gil from those drops and the person wanting the specific item gets that and only that when it does decide to show up.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Well there is a little thing about working together to achieve a goal, so it would be nice if people could every once and a while put aside their own greediness and help someone out.

How is the guy who wants the Hagun any less greedy than the other 5 who want to sell and split? The guy who wants the Hagun is trying to save gil, which is the same motivation as the others who are trying to raise gil.

[Ziero]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Uhh and why shouldn't they? In ENMs everyone that goes in is essentially using their orb for the week so if 6 people go in shouldn't they each get 1/6th of the reward? If one drops that puts you 1/6th of the way towards buying your own. If you've got a better way of making money then obviously do that for the sword instead, otherwise don't complain that your friends won't give you a million gil handout.

There's working together to acheive a goal, and there's your orb my drop. The latter ranks on the consideration scale alongside the guy who lots on all the drops in an exp party because he thinks he's the only one that needs money. Preparing for the Attohwa ENM is a lot of time and work. If you're going to tap 5 other people for it the least you can do is let them work towards their own goals of getting the items they're saving for too. All for one and one for all.

Honestly, it's more about what type of shell it is more then the actual 'work/reward' part. If it's a semi social shell that can do higher lvl things, it wouldn't be strange to have people whom you consider friends and who consider you friends to help out. On the other hand, if it's a 'business' EG/HNM type shell, it makes sense that those in it would want compensation for their work. As they're in that shell for rewards, not friends.

Me, I'd help anyone I considered a friend with something like that. I *have* helped friends get expensive rewards while I end up with little/nothing/less then what I started with. I made sure that any 40+ whm in my shell at least *tried* to BCNM for erase, most of whom actually got the scroll on my Orb (to the point it was a running joke in my LS) back when it was a 6-700k spell. I've passed on multiple Archer rings, back when they were 2-3 mil+, to let friends who I was helping get it, get it.

But then again, that's the thing, these guys were friends. Though I can't say I wouldn't go and help a friend of a friend do something like that with no notion of reward...but that's only because I'm pretty damn stupid.

[tdh]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Aeolus: Were those numbers on that Gekko as SAM/THF with Sneak Attack?

Hagun Vs. Soboro
Soboro can keep up, and if the sun is shining on your backside just right, can out do. But who ever thinks a Soboro will out do a Hagun a majority of the time is misinformed.

Sadly I have no access to a parser, but in the past few weeks I've partied with a number of SAMs who do. As stated previously, I'm a Auction House SAM, but I've tanked SAMs in end game gear with a Soboro and full time 3rd Eye/Seigan. My average Gekko with Soboro was in the mid-500s. I could break 1k every 10 or 15, but the it seemed if only 1 hit on the Soboro it landed at 500. 700 range are common, but I'd still say after averaging everything, let's call it 500dmg.

With a Meditate I can solo Light, and have enough TP to catch up with somebody else to open for them. So, excluding skillchain damage, taking the average, that's 1500 dmg - but it requires Meditate. Other times I can open with Yuki, then have enough TP to close with Kasha with out Meditate. This damage adds up, and ~can~ out do a Hagun, but I know for a fact my Hagun can out do my Soboro. Two weeks ago I parsed within ±4% of the Hagun SAM. You can keep up, but to truly out do, would require you to Triple Attack on every WS.

Hagun a SAM/THF Toy?
Sorry Malacite, but that's just stupid. At Lv.72 you're not going to be going /THF very often, and if you do, it's Trick Attack you're going after not Sneak Attack. Even then, in that instance, you'd use your Soboro so you can TA Yuki then SA Gekko immediately afterwards. You no longer need Sneak Attack to get insane numbers out of YGK.

With the advent of Overwhelm, subs are WAR, NIN, or DRG. I dislike having to go /NIN but with the numbers I was putting up, it was do that or lose lots of EXP and slow down the rest of the party. Pre-Monday I went SAM/NIN for the 2 parties and was still doing 1k averages. Numbers were slightly down, and I saw far fewer1300s, but Hagun was still the weapon of choice.

Get a Hagun, it's worth it. I don't know what it's worth on your server, but I caught a 120k break on mine. 980k when the going was 1.1M. You can bazaar Imp. Silver pieces and make a good 500k in less than a week. Supplement with your other gil making schemes, and you're home free. Unless you've fully retired it, you need that sword.

Yeah, my numbers are down. Yeah I'm kinda bum'd about it. But I'm by no means outta business. I can still break 1k, just not quite as frequently, and I can still drop mid to high 900s with my current build. But what gets me are the idiots talking about how their damage has hardly effected when they're getting at least one Min, Chaos Roll, meat dishes - all against Great Colibri. You could fall on those mobs before the original 2 handed update and break 1k. One of the screenshots shown from BG listed about 35% 1k+ damage, and then the rest were in the high 800 to high 900 range. If you go and hunt down the post a few after that screenie and he says he was so buffed it's ridiculous. With those buffs he should have been at 1100+ the entire time.

The numbers I posted were against mobs that had some actual HP and DEF, and we had no BRD or COR or anything along those lines. We were eating Sole Sushi because a number of the mobs were actually IT, and still put up good numbers. Give me 800 atk against an IT mob, and I'll rain down 1500 Gekkos after this update too.

[nanatsu]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

I don't have Hagun (too expensive and LS refuses to do the ENM with me on the grounds that they'd want to sell it if it dropped...) and I prefer my Soboro to Onimaru for the sheer number of WS. Keep in mind that before all this (and especially right after the 1st update) Soboro was on par if not better than Hagun in merits.
And /THF is not a good way to measure WS damage because of the critical hit messing with pDIF. You need to go either /WAR or /DRK (since DRK will merely boost your STR and Attack) and see for yourself.
Just because Soboro is a lv 50 weapon doesn't make it suck for endgame. I was loving the 1:1 ratio 'cause it meant no more sushi, ever (thank god) and /WAR with soboro + meat for psycho DoT comparable to WAR/NIN and MNK > <
All of this, combined with Wings being delayed a day (was supposed to be in today > _ < I was really looking forward to being 1 of the 1st people to get in on the action...) = seriously unhappy camper.

What I was saying was that right now you got a tradeoff. More WS or higher WS damage. Pick one. You seem to be miffed that your ws damage was lower. So I was telling you to go get a stronger great katana for higher ws numbers. Soboro SAMs were pretty much off the wall before this update. Lowering the ws damage normalizes them in my opinion. It's not like Soboro itself was targeted.

And every time I see a SAM open his mouth it's because they used a Soboro with 40 base damage on freaking Fafnir and did crap WS damage and it just bugs me. Of course you're going to do crap ws damage with it. I don't see how you couldn't. You said yourself you had fun spamming lots of WSes despite its low WS damage. That's its function.

That being said, you said you tested Onimaru's damage and it wasn't that much better. So I'll back off. From what I understand, all 2hand WS damage has taken a dive. But I've seen some sam's still breaking 1K and that doesn't seem so bad, so I really don't know what's up. Just tired of the complaints. I never liked the whole 1 dex =1 acc thing and I'm actually happy they changed it and I'm still making plans to dig out great axe for WAR. But I also think they shouldn't have fudged around with SAM WS modifiers, which is what everyone is telling me they've done.

And for the record, I think a lvl 50 great katana should suck for endgame.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

More then just the Hagun drops from that ENM. Something could be worked out. Hell, chances are that they wouldn't get the GK the first time (or second ...) and so the other 5 would split all the gil from those drops and the person wanting the specific item gets that and only that when it does decide to show up.

That's exactly what I had proposed every time, but they do things as a "Static", even though they rarely (if ever) touch that particular ENM...

And what idiot uses Soboro on HNMs? It's not a weapon for fighting insanely high lv mobs. And Hagun is a /THF toy. Just about every time I see another SAM in EXP using one, they're /THF. My SAM buddies and I all agree on this and we much prefer Soboro (that's not to say we don't like Hagun)

Soboro is a DoT weapon, Hagun is spike.

[tdh]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

And what idiot uses Soboro on HNMs? It's not a weapon for fighting insanely high lv mobs. And Hagun is a /THF toy. Just about every time I see another SAM in EXP using one, they're /THF. My SAM buddies and I all agree on this and we much prefer Soboro (that's not to say we don't like Hagun)

Soboro is a DoT weapon, Hagun is spike.

Then each one of those SAMs, aren't the brightest in the barrel either. Especially when you get to Merits and have cap'd Overwhelm /THF is absolutely useless in the whole scheme of things. In Merits, the only time I see /THF are with those who can't afford Haguns. I only see /THF any more from Onimaru SAMs. All, and I do mean ALL, of the Hagun SAMS I see sub WAR or NIN.

If you need hate control for a mission, fine. SAM/THF with a Hagun can shine, outside of that WAR, NIN and to a lesser extent it seems, DRG are your sub options - all using a Hagun in a majority of instances.

Honestly, as far as things go people don't use the Hagun in Meripos because they don't have one. Not because they think Soboro is better.

[raidenn]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

You might want to test the skillchains with the exact tp and STR base since the last 3 GKatana WS is dependent on the amount of TP an STR as damage modifiers.

Hagun uses 100% tp right? So if you execute your WS at 150tp + 100% tp of Hagun = 300tp

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

How is the guy who wants the Hagun any less greedy than the other 5 who want to sell and split? The guy who wants the Hagun is trying to save gil, which is the same motivation as the others who are trying to raise gil.

As a person who's trying to organize and lead Missions on top of BCNM and ENMs and such, I think you have to take each of these by situation.

For example - Up in Arms - I don't care what your goals are, if K Club drops, its sell and split. I'd love to have one for my RNG, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a TOY. An exensive toy some dumbass will buy that we can sell and buy many, many other nice things for ourselves. Why settle for a club when you could get an Osode or Shi'ar Manteele from your share of the split?

I have one friend who wanted to do "Your Orb, Your drop" for it so he could fund relic, I told him its "Sell and Split" or you don't come. That BC costs 60 seals at K Club is a 5% drop - while that's not hard on me as a BST and BLU, that's damn hard on other people who don't have soloable jobs. I've been the unsoloable jobs, I know how hard seals are to come by on them. I get so many seals from solo I'll share them with friends sometimes, I know others don't have that luxury.

For other BCNMs, like Worms Turn or Under Observation, I'm fine with "Your Orb, Your Drop." ISNMs that's OK, too.

ENMs are a little sticky. If I do ENMs for a static group, there will be specific terms. If you get something from them, you're going to the other ENMs where people need something, otherwise its sell and split. I'm about as much of a hardass about ENMs as I am CoPs, too, I don't want people who have one job to offer the group; don't expect that you can come as your favorite job or get what you need and leave. Its work to get ENMs flagged and you only get one shot at them every five days. If you leave the group after you get what you need, don't expect second chances from me or the group.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Eh, that's a tough sell.

Yeah, K Club is worth a crapload, but the prospect of being a Kraken DRK is too alluring.

It would really depend on the situation and the people you're doing it with.

[Armando]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Hagun uses 100% tp right? So if you execute your WS at 150tp + 100% tp of Hagun = 300tp

Hagun gives you +100 TP, it doesn't double your TP. WS'ing at 150 TP with a Hagun means an effective 250 TP, not 300 TP.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

I agree with Taskmage; it's utterly tactless to to ask other people to give up Gil from a rich drop for your selfish desires. Just save the money from ENM, BS/KS BC runs, etc, and sooner or later you'd be able to buy a Hagun as it drops, or get one from Bazaar or Auction House.

* * *

Or, here's an alternative if everyone wants the same item--a perma which last until everyone gets one. I do that with Peacock Charm; after 52 orbs, the three of us have two PCCs, and still working on the last one. We sell everything else, and split the Gil evenly--it's a nice (if moderate) income stream, while moving forward toward the goal.

[Omni]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

but but but, what if i want it NOW!

*stomp stomp stomp*

[Vyuru]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

I agree with Taskmage; it's utterly tactless to to ask other people to give up Gil from a rich drop for your selfish desires.

Gonna have to disagree with you and Taskmage on this one.

While it may vary by LS as some have said, I view a LS as a place where you can go to get help, and help your fellow LS mates in return.

I see no difference between helping someone farm up a key for a AF coffer for instance and helping them with a BCNM.


What one of my old LS used to do was have a policy that you make it known to the group that you want X item, you got that item and then most times the rest of the loot was split evenly. We wanted to help people get better with their job, so yes our Whms for instance got Erase when it dropped, and then got an even share of the rest of the loot.

Now I will say that we got (or I got, Erase was almost a guarenteed drop on my orbs for some reason) some pretty good BCNM drops on our orbs, so we weren't really hurting for gil even after handing out Erase or Utsu: Ni to a LS member, of course we also went in with 6+ people, everyone bringing an orb. If drops were really crappy, which only happened twice, the people who got their expensive item would bow out of the rest of the loot as thanks to the other people, but that was not required of them.

I think that's the best way to go about BCNM/ENM and other drops myself, I highly dislike "your orb your loot" runs, it's unfair to the other members. If you all share the risks, you should all share the rewards.

And yes, this is coming from someone who has gotten unusually lucky drops in most of the BCNMs I've been in (Erase, Utsu: Ni, 2x Phalanx, 2x misc junk for a total of 2+mil in one run on my orb in Steamed Sprouts)

Now if only I was that lucky with NMs....

Meh, it all worked out since I went 1/1 on Ose I guess.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Okay, but following that logic, why even bother Dynamis/HNM etc?