Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

[Armando]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

Vyuru: I'm sure most of us agree with you, but the main problem is that ENMs are not at all like helping someone farm a coffer key or do a BCNM or a mission or camp a NM. You can only do that ENM once per week, as you most likely know. In the case of obtaining a Hagun, you'd not only be taking the Hagun, you're also taking your friend's ENM opportunity.

Okay, but following that logic, why even bother Dynamis/HNM etc?

You can't really distribute things evenly in Dynamis/HNM. Many things don't have a real value (due to being Ex) and also only useful to only one job. A Hagun is useful to everyone regardless of their ability to use it because it can be traded for gil, but AFv2 is only of any value to someone who can equip it. Also, letting you lot on your job's AFv2 doesn't prevent me from lotting my own job's AFv2; i.e. you're not stealing any opportunities or rewards from everyone else. At best, you're only depriving people that can also use the same item, but in theory they should get it eventually in future Dynamis runs.

Granted, you could also reach an agreement where in exchange for the Hagun, you agree to ENM with them without taking any drops/gil until every other person is compensated for their loss in letting you have the first Hagun. It's always possible to compromise. But taking the Hagun without any other kind of compensation would definitely be one-sided.

I'm not really arguing against or in favor of either viewpoint by the way.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

That's SE's own stupid fault though. I don't like how they tend to assume that everyone is good natured and will help each other out.

There are other good drops from that ENM, as well as the EXP bonus. And it's not like I'd just take it and then never help them with anything after getting what I want =/

people get by by helping each other. This "what's in it for me" attitude needs to be put in check more often (It's not necessarily a bad mind set, it's just not always ideal/applicable)

[LilithAngel]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

My problem is that "sell and split" is really not the best option for every group, because it's a highly situational option. If the item isn't on AH, that gil won't do you any good, and if it remains off the AH for a long period of time, you might as well give it to them when it does drop, cuz guess what? That Hagun that just dropped? Who do you think is gonna be the one to buy it on AH? Save yourselves the headache; just give the damn thing to the guy. Besides, the low chance of Hagun dropping means it'll probably be done more than once; the group is still making gil on top of hunting down Hagun.

Also, yeah, the 5 others wanting gil from the one (that's essentially what they're doing; "sell and split" = you're buying it from 5 of your LS mates) are more greedy than the one wanting it (especially if the one wanting it has offered to pass on all other loot/profit in exchange for the GKT), mainly because it's not just the gil that's the issue here. If I'm in a LS, why should I have to pay to receive help, in any form, in anything other than my own time and assistance in other events/fights? It IS utter bullshit that not only does one have to help others first before they even bother to think of helping you in return, but you've gotta pay gil as well? No. Fail. Helping out first, I'm all ok with; hell, I'm more than happy to help out others with their shit all the time. But if I'm doing that, then yeah, they're just as obligated to help in return, and in this case, that would be not gutting me for gil on Hagun should it drop.

I ran with a LS that did have an interesting way to deal with "mercenaries" like that (that's what we called greedy fucks who only helped if it benefited them instead of doing it for the sake of helping LS members): if they wanted their "cut" of an event/fight (that normally didn't drop gil or something else "worth" it to them), then they were on call for that person, and had to drop what they were doing and go to that event if they wanted their gil. They also had to stay (or keep doing, for however long it takes) until the desired outcome was reached; only then do they get paid. In return, we would help them out, but only after all non-merc members (the ones that actually helped cuz that's what a LS does, it helps its members). They were low on the priority list, because we knew that once they had what they want, they'd just bail and not help anyone else.

We made damn sure everyone that ever joined the LS was well aware of this, so that there'd be no complaining when Mr. Merc was getting only a pittance compared to the people that actually helped on the big stuff w/o trying to ask for rewards. If someone wanted to go for a Hagun, we get together and help them get their Hagun; none of this "sell and split" crap over the sword itself, we just sold all the other stuff instead, and everyone benefited. The Hagun-seeker, of course, got a lower share, because of what he was going for, but at the same time, we didn't completely ass them out either, since we knew that they still needed at least "operating" funds.

In the end, it worked out for the better. People actually got the stuff they wanted, the LS was stronger as a whole, we regularly got stuff done, and people actually looked out for each other. The people that joined only to merc their stuff rarely got stuff, and got weeded out eventually, that, or they pulled their head out of their ass, wised up, and actually started helping out, realizing that need does indeed > greed. People rarely were in need of gil, either, mainly cuz the wealth was spread well enough that people were comfortable.

Man I miss that LS. Too bad real LSs like that are rarer than Almighty Apkallu.

Now, this is based on whether or not Mal falls under the "real LS" or "merc" member categories. If he's really a part of the LS, then yeah, the 5 others need to drop the greed and help out; if he's a merc, then he really doesn't have much of a right to complain when they want gil in return for helping out.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

We're mostly a social LS and help each other out whenever with whatever. They've helped me more often than I've helped them, but it's not like I don't appreciate it when they do or take it for granted.

I'm just trying to be reasonable =/

Hell, they want me to join their HNMLS... and a Hagun would really help with that >. >

[Taskmage]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

@Lilith: You should want to help out your friends as much or more than they help you out. It's not about "business" it's just part of being a good friend. There's no reward in the game easier to share than a salable drop. If you earn something together with friends and you refuse to share the reward with them then you're the "greedy fuck." It works both ways. You're saying they're greedy for not helping if it doesn't benefit them, they can just as easily say you're greedy for demanding people's time for no benefit but your own. If it was something like a Toreador's Ring that may never appear on the auction house again that'd be one thing, but Hagun has a steady stock and sales history. It will be there when the sam gets up enough money for the purpose. Why on earth wouldn't you want to share the bounty as equally as possible?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

That's SE's own stupid fault though. I don't like how they tend to assume that everyone is good natured and will help each other out.

There are other good drops from that ENM, as well as the EXP bonus. And it's not like I'd just take it and then never help them with anything after getting what I want =/

people get by by helping each other. This "what's in it for me" attitude needs to be put in check more often (It's not necessarily a bad mind set, it's just not always ideal/applicable)

I don't know why you would have a problem with selling and splitting the proceeds then. Over time, you would eventually be able to afford a Hagun.

It sounds to me that you have an issue with the market value of Hagun rather than your friends' method of distribution. You've already called Hagun a toy. It seems that you don't feel Hagun is worth acquiring at market price, but you wouldn't object to someone handing you one for free.

[Malacite]

Re: Once again, SE goes too ****ing far with nerfs

It's a /THF toy, by which I mean primarily for /THF (and end game > <)

I still want one, and I have enough gil now but then I'd be flat broke for god knows how long.