Wings of the Goddess Discussion

[Dark Raz]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

I think most people are saying we don't need a new tank, because well...there's PLD and (community created) Ninja as tanks, yet people just don't play them, nor want to invite them in later levels, same with Healer, we don't need new healers, we just need more people to play healer and more people to invite them in later levels, and not just dump it on RDMs.

[KoukiRyu]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

Plenty of people invite NIN's, it's only really PLD that suffers, but even then, I've TP burned with a PLD/NIN before and he did good enough. The only problem with higher level exp parties is that people don't want a tank period. They want to press alt+2 every 30 seconds while they die inside a little every time.

Something that Armando, and various others, like Legal Fish, have talked about is fixing the way that we fight mobs. Or making new areas with mobs that give exp == to the mobs difficulty. It's be nice if WotG had that, although I kind of doubt it, but I'll keep my hopes high until proved wrong.

I'd like a new tank, I guess just to have more choices while leveling through mid-game, not necessarily because I want some amazing endgame tank. Oh and please, oh god please don't let Dancer be a tank. I know someone randomly mentioned that on here on a whim(I think BBQcat) but I already am against Dancer in general, I'd hate if it was the tank. x_x;;

[Ziero]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

Try /RDM. I hear Phalanx and Stoneskin are awesome for the days you don't want to use /WAR. You also get to cast faster, more MP, and various other things I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment.
And, as Malacite stated, we don't need another tank. But, I have a differing reason. Hold on a moment . . .
EDIT:

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage
The thing about Tank Jobs, though, is there are two types of Tanking: Blood Tanking and Blink Tanking. Blood Tanking focuses on absorbing every hit you take, whereas Blink Tanking focuses on not getting hit at all: both types are common in their need for their enemy's attention....

So much wrong in both of those comments. A tank needs to be able to do 3 things successfully to be considered a Main Tank job. 1) Hold hate, on it's own without outside help. Easy enough for the two current 'main tank' Jobs, if played right, and something a few other jobs can do fairly well also. 2) Mitigate damage, again using nothing but their own abilities. Most DD jobs fail at this point but some mage jobs are quite good at it. And 3) Be able to keep up a constant performance for extended amounts of time without rest. This is where most Mage jobs fail at tanking.

Though jobs like Rdm and Blu can mitigate Dmg and pull hate...they need to burn MASSIVE amounts of their small MP pools to do so. Yes Rdm can solo gods and such, but they do so going *very* slowly and reserving their MP as much as they can. If any other class interfered, hate would swiftly be ripped off the rdm. And though Blu can buff themselves to oblivion and back while doing massive dmg in a short span of time to control hate, that would burn up their tiny MP pools absurdly fast. DD jobs like War and Sam can buff their Def and do great dmg to pull hate, but they're still going to be massive MP spounges with no real method of negating hate on their own. And for the record, I speak as someone who has tanked on war post 60...a decent Pld can do a better job.

If a job can't hold hate, negate damage and keep up with a constant performance of both acts, they can not be considered a main tank job. If you can add a job that can accomplish those three things, and you'll have yourself a successful main tank.

Is WotG gonna have any tie-ins with the old expansions? The fact I haven't even started on ANY of them leads me to believe I'm going to have to avoid this expansion until I finish the others to avoid spoilers and such. -w-;
I'm was sort of hoping for this to be my actual first "expansion" so I can sport around with a sig; Zilart: 0/0, CoP: 0/0, ToAU: 0/0, WotG: Complete!

My guess, yes and no. There may be mention of things and events from other expansions, but nothing that would be major spoilerific or dependent on one's progress in any other part of the game. The only exception might be some super end game, high ranking final mission that's totally optional that ties up some loose ends, like the last CoP/RoZ fight. Long story short, this expansion will most likely not affect, nor be affected, by previous expansions.

[Malacite]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

wings will deal with RoTZ CoP and ToAU.

Remember Zilart areas will bve referenced to, because the happy ant olk were involveed in the war. the Empire refused to help so they will get mentioning. And the main battle (aka the one in FFXI's intro) took place in a CoP zone so yeah, they will all be tied together for the first time.

but like Mal did say. We have been told the expansion deals with the plain 30 zones we started with, and a couple new ones. I am thinking bornder Taz zones may be new, seeing as the area was destroyed and that would account for other things we have been told.

Grrr, I can't find it anywhere for some reason but I know 1UP had an interview with them (pretty sure it was 1UP anyway) and they said that wings would only deal with the original 30 areas of the game, and they wouldn't say anything about Tavnazia.


And Raz, give it up already. SE already publicly stated there will never be Necromancer. They tried it and it did not work, end of discussion. It was a crappy job in FFV anyway, if you're that obsessed with it go play Diablo 2. At least in D2 Blizzard made it amazing >.>

The reason we don't need another tank is because we already have several jobs with evasion skills that don't work as much as they should (SAM and MNK) and heavy melee jobs like DRK and DRG who should be able to tank just fine with their heavy armor but can't because DEF (and especially armor types) mean nothing on it's own. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in the game. There's no reason a PLD or WAR in full plate should take the same damage as say a THF if their def values are (somehow) relatively similar.

[Hitokami]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

I somewhat agree that we shouldn't put our hopes too much on another tanking class based on the above reasons provided. If there are only two ways to tank such as blink and blood tanking, then I completely agree. I do however, think that they can still add a tanking class by adding a new style of tanking into the game. I am no game developer but I'm sure most of you can think of other ways and methods to avoid damage and keep aggro.

My main point is that they can add any class they want as long as they add new methods of play. Just don't take the hybrid route.

[Ziero]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

Grrr, I can't find it anywhere for some reason but I know 1UP had an interview with them (pretty sure it was 1UP anyway) and they said that wings would only deal with the original 30 areas of the game, and they wouldn't say anything about Tavnazia.
And Raz, give it up already. SE already publicly stated there will never be Necromancer. They tried it and it did not work, end of discussion. It was a crappy job in FFV anyway, if you're that obsessed with it go play Diablo 2. At least in D2 Blizzard made it amazing >.>
The reason we don't need another tank is because we already have several jobs with evasion skills that don't work as much as they should (SAM and MNK) and heavy melee jobs like DRK and DRG who should be able to tank just fine with their heavy armor but can't because DEF (and especially armor types) mean nothing on it's own. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in the game. There's no reason a PLD or WAR in full plate should take the same damage as say a THF if their def values are (somehow) relatively similar.

It takes more then evasion and armor to actually tank though. Thfs have *the* best evasion in game, to the point where they can solo some DC and EM mobs with no trouble because they just don't get hit. But they are *horrible* tanks because they can't hold hate, nor can they do anything once they do get hit. And a Drk's 'heavy armor' is for nothing but the looks. As a class, they are built to *suck* at taking hits. And seeing as Drg has abilities especially designed to lose hate, they too are the antithesis of a good tank.

It's not just stats that make a good tank, the class needs abilities and traits to allow it to be a constant and consistent target that can survive under fire for extended periods of time. Only Pld and War were initially built to do that, but people found that Nin could achieve that goal as well. And over time War's ability to be a focused tank has remained stagnent and grown stale, but Nin and Pld have been given abilities and equipment to help them achieve the goal of tanking better. Those jobs have been built to tank where as the other jobs have been given abilities that do nothing but help them survive slightly longer.

A dedicated tank needs abilities to keep it in a constant state of defense while allowing it to continually draw aggression away from other players. And only two classes can really achieve that.

[wafflegirl42]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

There's another consideration here too. What would adding in another tank really accomplish? A lot of people would probably play it for novelty at first, but unless it was really innovative, people that play tank type characters are going to continue to play tank type characters, and people that play DD's and mages will keep playing DD's and mages. A tank is a tank, and tanking is a matter of taste. Adding another job won't necessarily make people more inclined to do it. Just my two gil though

[Malacite]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

My point was the issue of survivability. MNK should be an OK (at least) tank with guard and counter, but counter rates are pretty low even with Counterstance up I find, and Guard kicks in once in a blue moon...

Meanwhile SAM should also be a great tank with Seigan + Third Eye and their high parry skill, but like guard parry rarely kicks in. IMO SE seriously needs to give guard and parry the shield treatment >_>


And you can't seriously say DRK shouldn't be able to take some hits. It generates so much enmity, and wears full plate like WAR and PLD (DRG doesn't but really should...) and by nature is supposed to intimidate the enemy, so why can't it tank (at least in a pinch?) based on that? There really should be a distinguishable difference in armor types apart from looks and stat bonuses.

I'm not saying DRK, DRG and the like should replace PLD and NIN, just that they should be able to withstand a lot more punishment given their armor class. By the same token, PLD ought to be made tougher and less reliant on being baby sat by a WHM or RDM.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

And you can't seriously say DRK shouldn't be able to take some hits. It generates so much enmity, and wears full plate like WAR and PLD (DRG doesn't but really should...) and by nature is supposed to intimidate the enemy, so why can't it tank (at least in a pinch?) based on that? There really should be a distinguishable difference in armor types apart from looks and stat bonuses.
I'm not saying DRK, DRG and the like should replace PLD and NIN, just that they should be able to withstand a lot more punishment given their armor class.

I think the issue with this is that a drk is a dd and they use dd gear. In order for them to be a decent tank they would have to invest in some gear to reduce dmg taken. They would also have to alter the way they play their job. Therein lies the issue, most drks don't want to do these things. It's not what they lvled the job to do. If you happen to find a gem in the bunch thats willing to do these things thank your lucky stars. I know with my drk that I can't afford to carry even more gear than I already do nor can I even afford to buy it. I also have multiple jobs that I switch to as my ls needs and being loaded down with equips and trying to do this in a timely manner just does not work well. LOL

[Losrase]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

I was thinking abilities because NINs are parry/evasion/item base, PLD are MP/armor/damage reduction base. The new tanking would be abilities/guard/counter base. I assume MNK was another taking class because their high damage output(hate), guard (damage reduction), and countering attacks (damage/hate). Why not use guard and countering again for another tanking class, plus another way to divert damage. I was thinking a new way would be through abilities. Like the memories used on the bosses of COP(Freeze in fear, cant use tp). They could add other abilities like confusion (mob hits it self but you gain the hate the damage generates), one that stops a certain amount attacks depending on level...etc.

[Karinya]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

There's another consideration here too. What would adding in another tank really accomplish? A lot of people would probably play it for novelty at first, but unless it was really innovative, people that play tank type characters are going to continue to play tank type characters, and people that play DD's and mages will keep playing DD's and mages. A tank is a tank, and tanking is a matter of taste. Adding another job won't necessarily make people more inclined to do it. Just my two gil though

Excellent point: it's the same reason the addition of COR didn't relieve the shortage of support job *players*.

Also, there's no reason to believe another new tank job wouldn't kill off one of the existing tanks (probably PLD, they're less well regarded already) the way NIN killed off WAR. Or have its tanking potential go ignored and unused like BLU.

Yes, WAR needs more healers in party and BLU needs more refreshers in party - but if you have those things, they can both hold hate and survive just fine with appropriate SJ, gear and food. Ninjas need haste (and constant erase/silena/paralyna against the right mobs) or they die, and PLD really benefit from at least some refresh; nobody tanks without any help from other party members. (Well, actually lots of people do, but then it's called "soloing".)


P.S. People that try to redefine Geomancer to be a tank puzzle me: do they really think that SE is going to do something like that? Haven't they played FFV at all? In the game that introduced it, Geomancer couldn't possibly be further from a tank; they have the hit points and armor selection of a BLM. FFT Geomancers - a departure from the previous job definition - were allowed weapons that looked impressive, but their damage was very unreliable and their armor selection still sucked, HP middle of the road at best. Geomancers have always been useful for their geomancy or not at all, and all the hypothetical tanking geomancies are made up out of whole cloth. You'd be on more solid ground suggesting SE was going to buff SMN and allow them to tank by spamming Earthen Ward - at least that's based on Golem, which really could reduce your damage taken a lot. No geomancer has ever done that.

If players aren't going to tank with a job that has a 50% DEF self-only buff that lasts a minute for only 10 MP and can be kept up continuously, they sure as hell aren't going to tank with Geomancer, even if it is ever added.

[Malacite]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

Excellent point: it's the same reason the addition of COR didn't relieve the shortage of support job *players*.

Also, there's no reason to believe another new tank job wouldn't kill off one of the existing tanks (probably PLD, they're less well regarded already) the way NIN killed off WAR. Or have its tanking potential go ignored and unused like BLU.

Yes, WAR needs more healers in party and BLU needs more refreshers in party - but if you have those things, they can both hold hate and survive just fine with appropriate SJ, gear and food. Ninjas need haste (and constant erase/silena/paralyna against the right mobs) or they die, and PLD really benefit from at least some refresh; nobody tanks without any help from other party members. (Well, actually lots of people do, but then it's called "soloing".)


P.S. People that try to redefine Geomancer to be a tank puzzle me: do they really think that SE is going to do something like that? Haven't they played FFIII at all? In the game that introduced it, Geomancer couldn't possibly be further from a tank; they have the hit points and armor selection of a BLM. FFT Geomancers - a departure from the previous job definition - were allowed weapons that looked impressive, but their damage was very unreliable and their armor selection still sucked, HP middle of the road at best. Geomancers have always been useful for their geomancy or not at all, and all the hypothetical tanking geomancies are made up out of whole cloth. You'd be on more solid ground suggesting SE was going to buff SMN and allow them to tank by spamming Earthen Ward - at least that's based on Golem, which really could reduce your damage taken a lot. No geomancer has ever done that.

If players aren't going to tank with a job that has a 50% DEF self-only buff that lasts a minute for only 10 MP and can be kept up continuously, they sure as hell aren't going to tank with Geomancer, even if it is ever added.

Fixed

[Karinya]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

Oops, forgot about that. But it makes my point even stronger: the FF3 and FF5 geomancers are basically identical, so that's their *two* first games establishing them as a physically frail, offensively oriented job, with no tanking or damage-soaking abilities whatsoever.

[KoukiRyu]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

I've played FFIII and FFV before, but I just liked the ideas previously mentioned for Geomancer. Just because in past games they weren't made to be tanks, doesn't mean that can't be changed that way, at least in my opinion. I can't do lots of things on MNK that I'd like to be able to do in other games, like Tactics, and so on and so forth for other jobs. So I don't see why it couldn't be changed, as was mentioned in other posts. I'm not really demanding, but I guess, I just want to see a new tank, mainly to possibly help with tanking shortages, because we don't need another DD, and because if some new mage is introduced, it tends to step on another mages toes, and they start to complain.

I'll more than likely be happy with whatever, but I'd like to see a new tank, and if not that, something innovative and different than the other jobs, which could possibly be turned into something new with the player base.

[jenova_9]

Re: Wings of the Goddess Discussion

ya the main problem is that SE refuses to make tanks like PLD as tough as they should be. they why the jobs feel so gimped. the stats and gear barely do anything that matches the potential they deserve. if a level 50 FFIV Cecil (PLD), fought a level 50 FFXI PLD, the FFXI PLD would get creamed, and Cecil wouldn't even need a sword.

there's a huge difference in how the stats and delivery work in the different FF games and it's ridiculous how nerfed these jobs are even at higher levels. Their input and output is no where near what it should be.