Botters get pwned by Taj...

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

I went and found the list. Found no one on it I knew, it made me happy.

[Theyaden]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

That was my point Little Ninja. This is going to give the mods a horrid time, there are some good people on that list regardless if they bot or not as well. A good deal of my ls mates from past and present linkshells are on that list, they are still good people regardless of botting. I know a few people on that list are about to lose their friends and linkshells, but that is the risk they take with botting.

One of the old tests of a good person is do they act in all things with basic integrity. Do they lie, cheat, or steal? If it is only ingame that they lack integrity then perhaps the banstick is required to allow them to enjoy endevors that do not lessen them as individuals. I do not know if the list is accurate, but any who were cheating to pull ahead of other players I would rather see removed so those who are honest can gain the rewards of work and patience without it being yanked by some jerk with a claim hack.
Sorry if this offendes, but my dearest ingame wish is to see the botters and gilbuyers publically deleted in Jeuno once per month. (GM Dave event Beat the botter ^..^)

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

I feel concerned about the people that are like "well yeah, we shouldn't have the list, but we do, so why not use it?".


Can you imagine the problems this type of a position has with it? "Oops, I accidentally happened to break into your home without a search warrant. Arrest timez now plz"

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

I feel concerned about the people that are like "well yeah, we shouldn't have the list, but we do, so why not use it?".

What do you propose? S-E pretends this list doesn't exist or has no useful info, and ignore it? I much prefer the dev team study the activities of these people, and figure out how to more easily prove bot users.

Not saying "Ban if you're on list!" Rather, these names can be used to better direct the limited resource S-E has for detecting cheaters.

Would be nice if some good come out of this affair.

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

So Ita, you'd be ok with SE breaking the law just to catch a few cheaters?

Perspective, man.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

you'd be ok with SE breaking the law just to catch a few cheaters?

Perspective, man.

Pardon? The list is publicly available information, and lists are not copyright-able, to my understanding.

Which law would S-E break by using a list known to the public?

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

So you really have no problem with SE working with criminals, approving of criminal actions, and using illegally obtained information to further themselves? You don't mind the thought of SE using hacking just to catch a few cheaters? (and keep in mind how small the list really is, compared to the number of actual cheaters on each server)

While we're at it, why don't we just have SE put keyloggers on all of our computers, that way they can monitor for anything fishy anyone might happen to do? Borrow warden from Blizzard while they're at it. Heck, let's just let SE have free reign to use our credit card information for anything they want, why not?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

Would be nice if some good come out of this affair.

What little good that came out of all this Taj got banned from. And BG was totally in the right to do it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. All Taj has done is toss his shit in the lap of every forum moderator and admin in this community. His actions have created a ripple effect these last three to four weeks that set off all these other little dramas on the side. His sense of justice sent people into hysterics, triggering other hysterics and drama elsewhere.

And we've seen it here from all kinds of members. Which is why your boss always tells you to leave your personal problems at the door when you come to work. Negativity just breeds more negativity.

As I said earlier, Balfree already stated that other community drama is not our problem. If you want to be Taj's cheering section, go right ahead and join in his witch hunt. I'm done hearing shit about him. SE doesn't need his help, they're making huge progress on these issues anyway, these people probably would have been nailed eventually.

Let the idiots waste their money, let them buy their gil and bot tools, you worry about your own game and report them if they are causing problems. SE will deal with the morons eventually. Its punishment enough these fools are wasting extra money to get pixels.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

So you really have no problem with SE working with criminals, approving of criminal actions, and using illegally obtained information to further themselves? You don't mind the thought of SE using hacking just to catch a few cheaters?

"Reading a public list" is very different than "working with criminals". And, if reading that list is "illegally obtain[ing] information", then I'm guilty already. Did you glance at it? Are you guilty as well?

You're ranting about things S-E did not do, probably would not do, and I did not suggest they do--anything illegal. There's a big difference between using a freely available list than hacking someone's site for it.

(and keep in mind how small the list really is, compared to the number of actual cheaters on each server)

All I'm interested is S-E using the opportunity to find a few choice targets to follow, so they can better figure out how to detect bots. As in improving the tools the company has for detecting cheats. I hardly care if it's 5 names, 50 names , or 50,000 names.

Again, which law would S-E break if the company decides to look into the activities of a few of its customers on its servers? Which law would S-E break if it decides to add a few names from a publicly available list to its own "watch list"?

I don't understand the problem you have with what I've suggested. Keep repeating the word "illegal" doesn't make reading a public list illegal, no matter how many times you do it.

If you want to be Taj's cheering section, go right ahead and join in his witch hunt.

... You actually think I'm cheering Taj on?

However, if S-E manages to prove that account stealing, world shifting business was Taj's work, I wouldn't shed a tear if he gets banned and/or prosecuted by the law. The same goes for the unauthorized access of Paypal account, fraudulent charges on credit cards, etc.; there should be no objection if law enforcement agencies holds him accountable for his crimes.

There's really no need to raise his status to "martyr", either way...

I'd like to see him in jail. Is that "cheering"?

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

and I did not suggest they do

Yes, you did, quite clearly.

Let me remind you:

I much prefer the dev team study the activities of these people

You want SE to work with criminals, just to stop a few cheaters. You have no objection to SE using illegal means to stop cheaters. You are apparently so obsessed with this game that you don't mind the idea of breaking the law in order to have a very small chance at improving it.

And repeating "public list" over and over again doesn't mean it's actually public. The facts are this: Taj is a criminal. Taj has committed multiple illegal acts. This list is private information, which was illegally obtained, intentionally, by a criminal. Using this list is supporting criminal actions.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

I give up, Feb. A list that can be easily found on the web is not "public", because you say so. Are you going to tell me next that information available in books inside of public libraries are not public, either? I mean, this land we live on was stolen from the Indians--every public library is stolen property--all illegal, so no public library information is public!

* * *

Since my concept of what's legal and what's not is invalid in your view, you accuse me of wanting S-E to work with criminals.

Here, let me give you and BBQ a peace offering, then:

IF it's not illegal for S-E to read this list, I'd like to see use the info, BUT ONLY IF the dev team thinks it may be helpful.

Happier now?

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

Ok, so you have absolutely no objection to SE using information that was illegally obtained, illegally distributed, and by a known criminal, who has admitted to many other crimes? You don't find computer crime something that should be illegal at all?



And btw, information inside books in a library is mostly not public, most of it is copyrighted.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

using information that was illegally obtained, illegally distributed, and by a known criminal, who has admitted to many other crimes?

It does not make reading the list a crime. I'm staking my future freedom on that belief. As I've said, S-E would not have to obtain the info illegally, unless you think browsing the BG site or DiV site (how I found out) should be made illegal.

You seem to have a moral objection, but I don't see any legal obstacle there for S-E. I disagree with you on the whether it would be immoral to use the information, of course, in the limited manner I suggested. (That's "Maybe put on watch list", not "BANSTICK on sight!")

And btw, information inside books in a library is mostly not public, most of it is copyrighted.

As this post is on a publicly accessible forum, it is both public, and copyrighted to myself, except for the portions of your post I excerpted under the fair use doctrine; those excerpts are copyrighted to you. (Note that I did not have to explicitly claim the copyright as I just did; it is conferred to me automatically under the law for all public and private work set in fixed medium I produce, as long as they contain sufficient creative contents such as but not limited to unique wording.)

Does that make clear the difference between concepts like public, copyrighted, and hopefully usability of a publicly posted list? (Again, lists cannot ordinarily be copyrighted, to my understanding.)

[Feba]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

So you have absolutely no problem with criminal activity, if it might have a chance of stopping a few cheaters in a video game. At all.


Alright then.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Botters get pwned by Taj...

You're still mixing up the legality of what Taj did and the legality of reading (and using) the information he released.

If you're asking would I prohibit Taj (or anyone else) from hacking that site if I have the power, the answer is "Of course."

If you're asking what hackers like that should be tossed into jail, the answer is "Of course" again.

If you're asking if there's anything wrong with using the info--now publicly available--in a limited, legal, and responsible manner, my answer is "No. That's fine."

* * *

Nazi kept lists of their Jewish victims, with names, ID numbers, dates, etc. If there has ever been "lists" as products of a vile crime, those are exemplary in the worst possible manner.

Do you think there's anything wrong with doing scholarly research with those lists? Say, if a historian want to produce an animated map of Nazi's extermination campaign, as a teaching tool to show how the madness spread?

Or, would you rather bury the lists along with all knowledge of and from that crime?