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  • How I would improve Pankration

    Ah yes, new content, and so I must share my opinions on how it could be better.

    Pankration is going through a big problem atm with the size of the crowds gathering on all servers. This may or may not be a temporary problem, but I won't be adjusting it directly... only streamlining the system so that it's helpful/not wasteful small or large.

    Another problem is monster balance, especially in the categories of FP vs HP extremes. For example, a Corse with 17 FP max is pretty ridiculous and so is a chigoe who gets two-three shotted so very quickly.

    The whole ranking system(Diablo) cage is done pretty poor, it's also very un-tournament-ish.

    Going back to the first point: I do not wish to see more cages added or for Pankration to be instanced. The former would require much more effort than necessary, despite being a good idea. Perhaps in WotG a secondary area could be added, but I'm speaking of right now. The latter would also be a lot of work and would prevent people viewing. Out of the two, more cages would be the better(even if it has to be from making a duplicate zone).

    It should also be noted, the .dats tell us some pretty crazy things are coming in the future, assuming they are true. Stuff like: 75 or higher cap, spells like Thundaga IV or Meteor, spells and WSes being learned independently, and so on. Uh, I'll try not to get into that right now... since who knows what may happen, if it ever does.

    Now to the fixes.

    Balance

    1. Base FP/HP/Stats are adjusted to be fairly balanced.

    Monsters with natural low FP would have something similar to 30 compared to 17 and monsters in the 70~ range won't suffer too greatly from their naturally weaker stats. Nerfing might be in order for monster types that don't seem to suffer at all for their high FP amounts(sometimes due to having access to very potent innates)... Apkallu and Clusters would be good examples. If Nerfing is done, it will be very light(and mostly be lowering base FP instead of stats).

    2. Jobs and Traits are combined for a cheaper overall cost and their FP cost differs.

    The cost for a mage job without good traits(example: BLM) would be cheaper overall, like 13-15 FP(shaving off 5-7 FP to be used on scroll plate). A job like MNK which benefits greatly from traits would fine their cost be at least 20, perhaps even higher(which would be a nerf).

    3. Innate traits can be added to a monster at a later time.

    This would put less emphasis on capturing the perfect monster before leveling it up. However, it would be important to keep some importance to the aspect I just mentioned. Details explained below.



    Match Making / Match Duration

    1. Matches begin and end as soon as possible to continue the flow for the next match.

    The moment a match ends, the next combatants will be paged. 30 seconds from then, their match will begin. (Combatants will be warned beforehand, as shown below)

    This means most matches will start 1/2 faster(assuming it's an even match which lasts just under or over a minute).

    2. Combatants will be able to warp directly to their corners using the Tarutaru Warping NPCs while it is their turn.

    3. Big change to the system: The entire system is changed to create several matches at once instead of make them as they fill. Level is considered when making matches together.

    After every 10 or so matches(20 people) at a cage, a new set of matches can be scheduled. When 20 new players register, their levels are matched up to the best possible combination(100% balance is likely impossible). After the combatants are assigned to each other, they are randomly ordered and are paged estimate time range of their next match(40 seconds x matches(minimum) to 3 minutes x matches(maximum) before theirs).

    Should a player withdraw from their match, a vacancy is made that can filled by someone else should they speak with a NPC. Players standing near the cage in a similar level range and are not in a match will be paged this chance.

    Withdraws when you are 1 or 2 matches away from going are not possible.

    4. Every other match players will be paged on their place in line and how soon their fight might be.



    Changes to Cages / Registering

    1. Annihilation has a level 20-25 level cap(might be raised as the level cap is raised). Combatants over the level 25 will be unable to sign up for matches there.

    2. Bloodlust is unchanged.

    3. Betting is available at Carnage, but it is otherwise unchanged.

    4. Betting is available at Diablo, other changes mentioned below.

    5. Every cage has a reentry timer on it(two actually). A player can not register a monster in the same cage until 10 minutes since his last match at that cage. He can not register a monster anywhere until the group of matches(20 player / 10 matches) his match was apart of ends.

    6. Diablo works differently: It does not have the same global timer that other cages have. You may only register in Diablo once every 3 real-life hours.



    Betting

    Betting is available at cages "Carnage" and "Diablo".

    Combatants will be unable to bet on their own matches.

    Betting on a match costs 2 Jetton. After paying this fee, you will bet 300 gil. When a bet is won, the won money is split between the winning side and the winning side is awarded 3 Jetton.

    You will be able to bet the the match after next. (Meaning not the current match, but the one that will be coming up after). The betters will be able to view information of the combatants(name, species, level, feral skills, temperament).



    Diablo Cage (Tournament)

    1. Only the challenger gains experience points from matches in Diablo.

    2. The entire system is changed: Rather a single champion, there is a ranking system, not unlike Ballista. Simply it works as follows:

    Ten slots of Rank 40
    Ten slots of Rank 30
    Five slots of Rank 20
    Then 15-1.

    3. When a ranked character registers at Diablo, he will face the opponent ranked above him. At ranks 40, 30, and 20 this can be a random pick out of a group of 5 or 10.

    4. When an unranked character registers at Diablo, he will randomly face one of the Rank 40 combatants.

    5. The stats of a ranked monster will be adjusted based on when the player trades his Official Reflector(either to fight or to upgrade stats). A player will be required to do this once a real-life week or their monster will be removed from the rankings.

    6. After 150 wins, a champion is forcefully retired.

    7. Players ranked 1 to 5 get special benefits, such as being able to make HNM-type monsters/skins(Behemoth, Wyrm, Suzaku, Hippogryph, etc).



    Innate Traits

    (*EDITED*)

    A NPC is added near the Bloodlust cage that handles his service.

    Basically, after level 15, a player can remove or add a single innate feral skill can be removed or added. The cost is somewhat great. At level 25, the second innate feral skill

    *1. To gain a innate ability: Trade in the official reflector(monster to gain the ability), a soulplate containing a monster of the same species with the same innate skill, and pay 100 x FP cost Jettons(2000 for a 20 FP feral skill, 5000 for a 50 FP ie).

    2. To remove an innate ability: Simply pay 10 x FP cost.
    Last edited by Legal Fish; 09-15-2007, 04:59 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: How I would improve Pankration

    it....just came out -.- if SE thinks it needs ajusting, they will do so... good lord -.-
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    • #3
      Re: How I would improve Pankration

      if brp isn't bitching, he isn't living.

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      • #4
        Re: How I would improve Pankration

        He's not really bitching. He brings up some great points.

        Pankration is supposed to be balanced so players can choose to fight with whatever monster they want. I should be able to take my chigoe and put it up to fight against a roc, and it should be able to stand a fighting chance. Every monster, in addition, should be able to have the same potential for growth and customization.
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        • #5
          Re: How I would improve Pankration

          Uh, exactly, it's not bitching. That's like saying "Hey you know what would be cool? If they had flying cars" and all my criticism is always constructive. Your post(s) however.... hmmm, I don't know! Though Kailea's problem could go either way: rudeness or insanity?

          But feel free to comment on what I actually posted.
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          • #6
            Re: How I would improve Pankration

            Originally posted by Pai Pai Master View Post
            I should be able to take my chigoe and put it up to fight against a roc, and it should be able to stand a fighting chance. Every monster, in addition, should be able to have the same potential for growth and customization.
            Why? In this case why even have different monsters? If everything is supposed to be so close to everything else, why not have one monster and have defined growth patterns? Are different mobs just supposed to be for looks but everyone fights the same thing so no one gets their feelings hurt?

            Were people surprised when a low HP mob had low HP?
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            • #7
              Re: How I would improve Pankration

              Originally posted by Mhurron View Post
              Why? In this case why even have different monsters? If everything is supposed to be so close to everything else, why not have one monster and have defined growth patterns? Are different mobs just supposed to be for looks but everyone fights the same thing so no one gets their feelings hurt?

              Were people surprised when a low HP mob had low HP?
              Uh... hmmm...

              "Why In this case why even have different jobs? If everything supposed to be close to everything else, why not have one job and have defined growth patterns? etc..."

              Balance =/= being the same.

              They're is an OP you know! Could comment on that...
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              • #8
                Re: How I would improve Pankration

                I don't see the point to this topic.

                If you've played with it long enough, observed the fight and have any in-depth experience with BLU or BST, you'll see this game is working just as it should be. MNK mobs are no longer the holy terrors they started out as, seasoned players stopped throwing together monsters and started employing killer effects over attack speed bonuse or started to add Evasion and Defense stats to thier pets. Apkallus, Mandies and Wamouras get torn up on Odin if they aren't prepared properly now.

                The main issue with pankration is simply entering a match. While the first come/first serve design is a logical one, demand exceeds its function in fairness.

                A reservation system should be in place, similar to how it is with the Diorama version of Ballista and Brenner. And you can only make one reservation at a time with one active soul reflector. Players should be given a Pit Warp scroll so they can go about thier business in-game.

                Force-retiring winners in Diabolo is just plain stupid. There's no thrill in beating the champion if you do that.

                Betting, while interesting, already has its place in chocobo races. The results there are a real gamble, as it should be. But doing so for a 1-on-1 fight is just inviting RMT in to exploit this hardcore.

                Innate traits should remain as is, its part of the fun in discovering what monsters have what abilities. If you can make a monster that can do what any other monster does, balance is lost, not gained. Balance is why there are feral point limit, job restrictions and innate traits to start with.

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                • #9
                  Re: How I would improve Pankration

                  The difference between monster races should be more like the difference between play characters. Possibly a bit more pronounced. Every monster can't start out exactly the same, that wouldn't make sense.

                  You can't throw in an equal level Chigoe and Wivre and really expect the Chigoe to go toe to toe and win. If the monsters had more definitive strengths and weakness I could see it becoming a David and Goliath thing, but you gotta know if the Wivre smashes the Chigoe its gotta be dead.

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                  • #10
                    Re: How I would improve Pankration

                    They're is an OP you know! Could comment on that...
                    When the hell did you become such an attention whore?

                    I don't see the point to this topic.
                    Pretty much. BRP, nobody at SE cares what you think, and for good reason.

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                    • #11
                      Re: How I would improve Pankration

                      If you've played with it long enough, observed the fight and have any in-depth experience with BLU or BST, you'll see this game is working just as it should be. MNK mobs are no longer the holy terrors they started out as, seasoned players stopped throwing together monsters and started employing killer effects over attack speed bonuse or started to add Evasion and Defense stats to thier pets. Apkallus, Mandies and Wamouras get torn up on Odin if they aren't prepared properly now.
                      Hmmm, I'd like to see more proof of this! Apkallus and Mandies(Korrigan models anyway) are still pretty top tier if their innate skills are good enough. Of course, this doesn't matter much if levels are pretty distanced(like in Diablo).

                      No offense, but I've experienced something very different. I don't have a lot of proof, but majority of experiences of other players tend to side with this thought. Atm, it's very hard to compare monsters so easily since testing is very hard to do(even with parties). I'd need to see some really good test results to see how "prepared" one is or not.

                      In anycase, this doesn't exactly go against what I said in the OP, at least comparing build types(evasion, attack, defense, etc).

                      Very likely such changes would only encourage obscure types and keep the stronger tiers popular. That would be the goal.

                      Force-retiring winners in Diabolo is just plain stupid. There's no thrill in beating the champion if you do that.
                      Hmmm, the way I see it, a champion can only be fought by one person(once every three hours at that). 150 wins after such changes could be the same as 1000+ wins now. A champion will still remain so for a very, very long period of time if undefeated(or if inactive). Do consider these changes are being made at once.

                      Betting, while interesting, already has its place in chocobo races. The results there are a real gamble, as it should be. But doing so for a 1-on-1 fight is just inviting RMT in to exploit this hardcore.
                      Uh... gil isn't created at all(which I think is the case for racing?) and people can't control bets nearly as well as racing, because Pankration isn't dead. Someone(s) is going to bet against your pair(which can't bet themselves besides mule) and mess with your win ratio.

                      And I don't see why Chocobo racing should hold all the betting ;/. While Pankration is a much better show(and uh... better game too while at it...), I think betting could really add some fun to it.

                      Innate traits should remain as is, its part of the fun in discovering what monsters have what abilities. If you can make a monster that can do what any other monster does, balance is lost, not gained. Balance is why there are feral point limit, job restrictions and innate traits to start with.
                      Hmmm, I don't see eye to eye to this. But you made me think, that there is a better solution than I one I put in place, I'll edit that in.

                      You are right, it is apart of the fun, but I would have to disagree with the fact that a monster should always, always be better based on birth. It's not like anyone is going to be less excited to get a dual-good innate monster... it saves them roughly 5,000-19,000 Jettons(lots of IS or quite a bit of gil in conversation). Further more, gaining new/changing innates is available +15 and +25... quite a bit of distance imo.


                      Anyway, I changed my mind on how it should be handled. It should be Jetton cost + Official Reflector + Reflector with a (same species) monster that has the innate ability. This puts a hell of a lot of work into it(as it is now). I'll edit this in.


                      When the hell did you become such an attention whore?
                      Hahahaha, oh wow, Feba calling me an attention whore... terrible thing when a 14 year old gets drunk on forum popularity and internet anonymity. I made the same mistake as you, don't be the same way.

                      Uh, wanting a topic I started to be on topic makes me an attention whore? Perhaps you should keep out of such threads if you have nothing to say about it? I think spam is against the rules, and despite you not even playing anymore you should at least make an effort to talk about FFXI in a FFXI thread like most people do who don't play.

                      Pretty much. BRP, nobody at SE cares what you think, and for good reason.
                      Cool, now if only this was addressed to SE and not the community of FFXIOnline.com.... There have been "useless" threads before, go get 'im tiger.
                      Last edited by Legal Fish; 09-15-2007, 04:11 PM.
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                      • #12
                        Re: How I would improve Pankration

                        Okay, c'mon guys. This is what BRP does. The thread is about his proposed changes and problems with Pankration. If you can't say something nice, at least limit your comments to the topic.
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                        • #13
                          Re: How I would improve Pankration

                          I missed this comment earlier:

                          You can't throw in an equal level Chigoe and Wivre and really expect the Chigoe to go toe to toe and win. If the monsters had more definitive strengths and weakness I could see it becoming a David and Goliath thing, but you gotta know if the Wivre smashes the Chigoe its gotta be dead.

                          A fly in real life couldn't defeat me, but a mosquito with West Nile might.
                          The way I see it... a chigoe should have the potential to beat a wirve. It's like you said, someone makes a chigoe that uses it's quick speed to lock(stun, petrify, sleep) the monster or do insane amounts of damage(elemental additional effect) might be a bit more severe... if he's going to get two-shotted, not much you can do unless you get him to attack 10 or 20 times per wirve attack.


                          And additionally, monsters will still vary greatly, with WSes, monster types(killer effects are sweet especially when stacked with the feral trait), and natural stats. The idea is to lessen extremes since extremes are usually too weak or too strong by nature.
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                          • #14
                            Re: How I would improve Pankration

                            In the case of the chigoe, they're insanely small, evasion could be through the roof and they could peck at the wivre while the wivre just kept hitting air. If it does manage to connect a couple times, its all over, though.
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                            • #15
                              Re: How I would improve Pankration

                              I've never noticed Chigoe being all that evasive... fast they are though. I think fastest in the game? Obviously built like a tissue NIN without shadows.
                              Last edited by Legal Fish; 09-15-2007, 05:39 PM.
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